Viscount Trenchard:

Moved by Viscount Trenchard

56A: After paragraph (d), insert—“(da) Great British Nuclear,(db) the National Wealth Fund, and”

My Lords, I was interested to read the Amendment by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and I tend to agree with it. It makes absolute sense that before the statement of priorities is published, these bodies should be consulted.

As many noble Lords said at Second Reading and on our previous day in Committee, there are many different bodies all trying to do much the same thing in this space. What was the UK Infrastructure Bank is now called the National Wealth Fund, and it is quite rich. It has, I think, £28 billion to deploy, and will no doubt be able to make many investments that will help not only the decarbonisation of the energy system but energy security. But as the Minister knows, I continue to believe that the Government’s energy policy so far does not take enough account of nuclear and its potential. For example, the consumers, whether households or companies—industrial consumers—do not have any say over where their subsidies go. A part of electricity Bills goes in subsidies to renewable energy projects, for example, but not to nuclear. This means that the market to date has been distorted to the disadvantage of nuclear projects.

That is one reason why there are not enough viable and financially well-funded United Kingdom nuclear projects. There are quite a lot coming to the UK from the United States, whose Government have been extremely generous in providing grants and financial help to American nuclear consortia. There is a danger that Great British Energy will operate too much in a silo and that Great British Nuclear, which does not have very much money, will not be required to co-ordinate its strategy and policy sufficiently with GBE, or indeed with what is now called the National Wealth Fund.

It is right—as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has proposed, and the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, told us—that the Secretary of State should be required to consult those bodies, but we should also include Great British Nuclear and the National Wealth Fund, so that each of these three bodies knows what the others are doing, so that they have a greater chance of working out a co-ordinated policy, and so that we have some joined-up thinking.

That is why I tabled Amendment 56A as an amendment to Amendment 56. I beg to move.

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 116, which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who cannot be with us today, and to which I added my name. I was greatly encouraged by the Minister’s words at Second Reading that he looked forward to discussing biodiversity further in Committee. I do not think I have ever heard a Minister say that before, and now is his moment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has previous with this sort of amendment, having tabled similar amendments to a variety of previous Bills, so colleagues may now be familiar with her modus operandi in this respect. The amendment aims to address the challenges of how the objectives, strategic priorities and other functions of GBE fit with the legally binding targets in the Climate Change Act 2008 and the Environment Act 2021, which the Government have a statutory requirement to achieve.

At Second Reading there was recognition that when making decisions about the rollout of renewable energy, clean power and the associated infrastructure, it is important that we bring together all the different responsibilities, issues and trade-offs in one scheme—one structure or place—so that Great British Energy and the Government are fully equipped with all the information to weigh up these decisions and to take account of all these different factors in an integrated way, rather than in the siloed approach to decision-making that we distressingly see all too often in government. This is particularly important where there are legally binding targets that the Government have to achieve and where it would be distinctly unhelpful if Great British Energy were working in the opposite direction.

We have a real opportunity here to set the long-term strategic direction by putting in place the right frameworks to provide a stable structure for Great British Energy to make decisions and to be as transparent as possible in its decision-making, both now and into the future. The aim is to try to make sure that the projects invested in are the most effective at delivering on GBE’s objects but operate in such a way that they do not militate against the Government’s achievement of the binding climate change and biodiversity targets. We want to be cunning; we need to learn to walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. We want to achieve the strategic climate objectives that Great British Energy is there to deliver but we also want to achieve other objectives—it is both/and, rather than either/or.

The amendment does not imply that in every single case Great British Energy needs to contribute to the statutory binding targets, but it does aim to ensure that they are considered from the outset when Great British Energy makes decisions—and indeed when the Government make decisions—about strategic priorities; that it factors them into the decision-making process and, where reasonable, contributes in a positive way to the statutory target achievement; and certainly that it does not make it more difficult for the statutory targets to be achieved.

I have said that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has previous on this. Noble Lords who took part in the Crown Estate Bill recently will have heard the her argue for a Clause very similar to this. She successfully persuaded the Government of the need to join up the functions of the Crown Estate with the climate and nature targets. During that Bill’s passage, the Minister agreed both in Committee and on Report that:

“It is right that the public and private sectors make every contribution they can to help achieve our climate change targets”.—[Official Report, 14/10/24; col. 75.]

I hope we can persuade the Minister that this is an even more important case than the Crown Estate having an eye to the climate change and biodiversity targets, and that GB Energy will have an appreciable impact on both of those targets. We need to hardwire it in from the outset, particularly since, as was outlined in the previous debate, we have not yet seen GB Energy’s strategic priorities and plans.

I hope the Minister will accept that what was good for the Crown Estate goose applies equally to the GB Energy gander. I want to make a festive allusion, if noble Lords will pardon my lame attempt: I hope the Minister will agree that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and that GB Energy should have a similar requirement laid on it as was accepted and passed for the Crown Estate. I hope we can persuade the Minister of that.

My Lords, very briefly, I offer Green group support for Amendment 56 and, in particular, Amendment 116, which has broad support, as we see from the signatures. I declare my interest as a member of the advisory committee, as I think it is now called, Peers for the Planet. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, has already said many of the things I was going to say. I just add that I can go back even further than she did, to the Pension Schemes Act 2021. That was an historic moment, with climate being written into a finance Bill for the first time ever.

I have been in your Lordships’ House for five years, and we have had win after win, as the noble Baroness just outlined. It really is time for us to stop having to bring this to the House to be inserted, taking up so many hours of your Lordships’ time to get us to the point at which clearly the Government should have started.

I will add an additional point to what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said. In the recent election, Labour explicitly said that it was aiming to take a joint nature and climate approach to its way of operating the Government. This surely has to be written into the Bill.

To set the context, a nature recovery duty was discussed in the other place. My honourable friends Siân Berry and Adrian Ramsay were prominent in that, along with people from other parties. We are one of the most nature-depleted corners of this battered planet, but our statutory duty is at the moment only to stop the decline, not even to make things better. We surely cannot be creating such an important new institution as this without building nature into its statutory obligations. The Government regularly remind us that the economy and GDP growth is their number one priority, but the economy is a complete subset of the environment. The parlous state of our environment is an important factor in the parlous state of our economy.

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to Amendment 116, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to which I have added my name. I am sorry the noble Baroness is unable to be here today, and I wish her well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for speaking to this amendment.

The amendment would give Great British Energy

“a climate and nature duty requiring it to take all reasonable steps to contribute to the achievement of the Climate Change Act 2008 and Environment Act 2021 targets in exercising its functions and delivering on the objects in clauses 3 and 5”.

We face a climate change issue and a nature issue; they are interlinked and co-dependent. The actions that we take on climate change cannot be at the expense of biodiversity and nature, particularly in our seabed, which locks up so much blue carbon. We are still developing our understanding of just how important that is, and how susceptible the seabed is to disturbance. The two are interlinked and interdependent, and they have to be seen together. The more that we can do this across all our public bodies, the better we will be.

A nature recovery element to the proposed duty would give GB Energy statutory direction to invest in clean energy projects that meet the highest of environmental standards. It is really important to make sure that the work GB Energy does on climate change also supports nature. That would give it a key concentration in its broad decision-making and investment decision-making, as well as in projects, project management and delivery. A nature recovery duty would give GB Energy the power to use nature-based solutions and to review what it does and hold itself to account, and for us in Parliament to do the same.

The Crown Estate Bill and the Water (Special Measures) Bill have been mentioned already. Both those Bills have had the addition of a general climate change and nature target. This was a welcome development, which I was very pleased to see. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for the work she has done, and to Peers for the Planet and other Members of this House who were involved in those processes. That target is an important part of our transition.

I was pleased to see the same amendment proposed to the GB Energy Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, worked constructively with the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, to get that done, and they found a wording that worked for both of them in the context of this Bill. The context exists: GB Energy’s primary partner is the Crown Estate, so half of this partnership has a reporting requirement already. At a very minimum, if this amendment is not accepted or amended to make it acceptable, the amendment in the Crown Estate Bill has to be mirrored in this Bill. I have tabled an amendment in a later group which picks up on that work and seeks to make sure that that happens.

These are important matters. I hope that this amendment can be carried forward. Labour made a commitment in its manifesto not only to fight climate change but to protect nature. It is important that the institutions that this Government set up to fight climate change also implement Labour’s other manifesto commitments.

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 116, I declare my interest. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for all she has done in this area in general, and in relation to this amendment in particular.

I want to make a specific point, and I made it at Second Reading. I do not think that we have enough detail on the objects, directions or priorities; there is a lack of specificity to them. The Minister has said he does not want what he has called constraints, which I can understand, but to other people such constraints are clarifications. Somewhere between the two, there has got to be a measure of talking to see how we achieve that.

There is a case in company law called Re Introductions Ltd. I mention it because the facts illustrate how important it is to get these things right. The company in the case was set up to introduce overseas visitors to the delights of Britain at the time of the Festival of Britain. For reasons that are not entirely clear, the company changed its activities and went into pig-breeding, completely against what was said in the objects Clause and in breach of directors’ duties and so on. The law on objects clauses has changed a great deal, but it is still important that we are able to see that directors are going to do the things that we want them to do. That is what Amendment 116 is all about.

I will not delay the Committee too long because the ground has already been trodden on how this is something we should be doing. It should not come as a surprise to the Government that your Lordships want this Bill to be about ensuring we take proper regard of the Climate Change Act, which has had support from across the House. We supported it during our period in government; indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, chaired the Climate Change Committee. It is important that we embed it and the commitment to the environmental targets for biodiversity in the legislation, as there is a read-across between the two: if you do one it has a beneficial effect on the other, and vice versa.

As other noble Lords have said, this would be consistent with the Government’s approach. They have already done this in the Water (Special Measures) Bill, which they amended so that Ofwat has to abide by the climate and nature duty, and in the Crown Estate Bill, as has been mentioned, which was amended to ensure that the commissioners keep under review the impact of their activities on the achievement of sustainable development. I do not think it is a great deal to ask of the Government to have a consistent approach, to adhere to it and to make sure this legislation works accordingly. I hope the Minister will be able to give a favourable indication of what will happen between now and Report, because it is very reasonable to request that this be written into the legislation.

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Trenchard’s Amendment to Amendment 56. He knows a great deal about the oncoming revolution in civil nuclear power, which does not seem to have quite arrived in the Government’s thinking. They are still contemplating building backward-looking, out-of-date technology structures. That will all emerge as we debate it.

I also ought to declare my interests. The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, rightly reminded me that that is what I should have done. I do indeed have registered connections with energy-related companies.

I am left almost bereft of words of surprise and dumbfounded that my noble friend’s amendment is not assumed to be vital to the entire structure and operation of this project. I am talking particularly about including Great British Nuclear in the Bill. The National Wealth Fund will also be in the game, as it will look at sites and at projects, but Great British Nuclear and Great British Energy need not only to talk to each other. It is always nice to talk and so on, but they are treading on exactly the same immensely complicated ground, on which the most intimate integration and co-operation will be required.

I refer first to transmission and the whole question of redesigning our transmission grid over the next five years, if we can do it. As a matter fact, I do not think it can be done, but if it could, it will need to get electricity, first, from the North Sea to the switching stations, most of which have not even been started—one or two have—and then to the markets where electricity is consumed. That raises a whole lot of questions about transmission that we will discuss later. Secondly, it will need to get electricity from new nuclear sites, which I hope will be covered—I think they will in other countries—by smaller nuclear reactors, advanced boiling water reactors and others, all in the 250 megawatt to 400 megawatt range.

The process of siting these reactors is already going on. More than one government agency, including GBN, is putting around consultation documents to see what we mean by siting. Is it just that we will use disused sites—the old Magnox sites? Can we reuse them? I suppose we cannot if we persist with Sizewell C, but if we had the wisdom to postpone it, that site could be covered with eight or 10 SMRs. To get a sensible balance by 2050, let alone 2030, we will need about 500 SMRs of various designs across the country, sited mostly, I imagine, on disused or current nuclear sites but maybe on other sites as well. These are possibilities on which the public have had no say at all so far. I think their initial reaction will not be very well informed, because they have been told nothing about it. There is a whole operation of siting SMRs, combined cycle gas turbines and other energy installations. Heads have to be put together very closely so they do not end up in a glorious muddle on where things should be sited, who gets there first and that sort of thing.

Then, of course, there is the whole issue of how much electricity we will need. It is underneath our discussions now, but we know there is a hopeful view, which I think is still the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero’s view, that we have to aim for a couple of hundred gigawatts of cleaner electricity. We have now about 33 to 40 gigawatts of clean electricity—half our electric sector, which is 20% of our total energy care, so that is about one-ninth of what we need even to satisfy present demand. But there are stories in the papers—there is one this morning—indicating that demand is already surging far ahead of any predictions any of the governmental experts have made. This is a sign of something to come. In particular, if oil and gas are forbidden by 2030, so you cannot get oil or gas for your home and you cannot get petrol, the demand for electricity to replace all that will be absolutely enormous. Even if nothing very dramatic happens in the way of overall demand for power, it will be enormous.

Meeting this demand will require the closest possible co-operation between organisations such as GBN and GBE. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said that it was implied, perhaps wrongly, that he is against the Bill. I am not against it for the simple reason that we cannot be. Our constitution in this Chamber does not allow us to knock down the whole purpose of a Bill. All we can do is desperately try to improve something that we know will obviously be a nonsense in the end. The aim of 200 gigawatts always struck me as way below what will be needed; I think it will be more like 300 or 400 gigawatts of electricity in the all-electric age. There are 40 million vehicles in this country, vans and cars. Will they all be electric? If they are, that will use a lot of electricity, even if some of it can be fed back into the system.

But these issues sit above what we are dealing with now, which is how bodies we set up can possibly be kept apart when they deal with the same ground and the same issues—transmission and siting. I find it quite incredible. Perhaps I am being premature and the Minister will stand up and say that this obviously got left out of the Bill and must be put in it now so that those bodies should at least talk. Of course, they should do more than that; they should co-operate.

I support my noble friend Lord Trenchard, who has rightly spotted a great gap in the logic of this organised project. We should put this one right, which we can do, and recommend to our friends in the other place on the basis of the very considerable expertise that exists in this Chamber that this would at least repair one dislocation in this unhappy legislation.

My Lords, if I am brutally honest, I do not really like this Bill at all. It is a vehicle for a nationalised industry that should not even be set up by a Labour Government who want to gamble with other people’s money with no parliamentary scrutiny. Therefore, and on that basis, I really should support the Amendment, because if they have to consult all these quangos and unelected bodies, which have made life such a nightmare for people for so long, they will never get anything done anyway, but that is just too cynical even for me. I have found that the Climate Change Committee represents a dwindling number of people in this country and basically keeps the Reform party in business.

As for the environmental committee, that is the one that, of course, the Government are going to ignore when they introduce their housing target of 1.5 million, because that has basically been blocking the number of planning permissions. Once again, I have a vested interest here: my family has land in Surrey that they are hoping to develop, so we are very keen on the recent Statement from the Deputy prime minister.

These quangos have not done anybody any good at all. The Government would be absolutely right if they resisted this amendment, because we have been run by these people for much too long and it is time that the country was run for the interests of the people.

My Lords, once again, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and my noble friends Lord Trenchard, Lord Howell, Lord Hamilton and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth.

Amendment 56 would require the Secretary of State to consult the relevant stakeholders before strategic priorities for GBE were published. Under this requirement, the stakeholders to be consulted would include, but not be limited to, the Climate Change Committee, the National Energy System Operator—also known as NESO—Natural England and the Environment Agency. Amendment 116 would introduce a new Clause on the duty of GBE to contribute to climate-change and nature targets. This would require GBE to “take all reasonable steps” when

“exercising its functions and delivering on the objects in clauses 3 and 5”,

and

“all reasonable steps to contribute to the achievement of the targets in the Climate Change Act 2008 and Environment Act 2021”.

These objects reflect the values of climate and environmental responsibilities and sustainability which, within this House, are championed on all Benches. Great British Energy, and therefore the Secretary of State, have a unique opportunity to be involved in helping to achieve the targets of the Climate Change Act and the Environment Act. They are in a privileged position, undertaking meaningful actions to be involved in nature and biodiversity recovery. They can tailor their strategic priorities with the Climate Change Act and the Environment Act in mind. In fact, as a publicly owned company, GBE has a clear duty to protect and nurture the environment by consulting key stake- holders such as Natural England, the Climate Change Committee and the Environment Agency. The Secretary of State will ensure that the activities undertaken by GBE will be those which best help to tackle climate change, promote nature recovery and protect the UK’s environment.

At present, however, I do not believe that this Bill creates sufficient provisions to consult the relevant environmental agencies on GBE’s skeletal strategic priorities and plans; nor does it ensure adequate reporting measures, which we have discussed. In Committee and on Report on the Crown Estate Bill, we on these Benches scrutinised the unprecedented relationship between the Crown Estate and GBE. It appeared that this Government introduced this legislation with one major objective: to enable the Crown Estate to build more offshore windfarms in partnership with GBE. My noble friends acknowledged that it was important, when legislating, to increase commercial activity on the seabed around our shores, but a restriction must be placed on the development of salmon farms in England and Wales, especially given the damaging effects on nature and the environment resulting from salmon farms operated in coastal waters and sea lochs in Scotland.

As a result of the rigorous and critical debate on the protection of the environment and the preservation of animal welfare standards at Report on the Crown Estate Bill, this House successfully voted on an amendment requiring the commissioners to assess the environmental impact and animal welfare standards of salmon farms on the Crown Estate. It is evident that this House cares about environmental protections. Concerning this, I hope we might receive an encouraging response from the Minister on amendments discussed today.

My Lords, let me begin with Amendment 56 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and spoken to today by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and Amendment 56A tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. These amendments propose an addition to Clause 5, which would require the Secretary of State to consult the Climate Change Committee, the National Energy System Operator, Natural England, the Environment Agency, Great British Nuclear, the National Wealth Fund and other relevant people before publishing a statement of strategic priorities.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for all the work that she has done and all she has contributed to legislation in the last few years. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, for his rather barbed support in relation to the Government’s response to these amendments. It was not a complete surprise that he does not entirely welcome the Bill, although there will be unalloyed pleasure for my colleagues in Defra at the support that he is giving to our planning reforms, which actually do relate as well to the energy infrastructure and the investment that we wish to see.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is particularly focused on nuclear energy and its potential, which I always welcome. Great British Energy and Great British Nuclear are already talking very closely together, and he can be assured that this will continue. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, I say that electricity demand in the future is clearly going to go up hugely over the next 20 to 30 years. If he looks at the clean power action plan, he will see that we really recognise the need to speed up planning consent and connections to the grid. This is fully understood, which is why it is a such an important component. In a sense, this is for the Government to take forward: GBE will have to work within those policies that we are taking forward. It is for the Government to do this, and that is why it is not really reflected in the provisions of the Bill.

While I certainly accept the principle of what the noble Viscount is arguing, the fact that he has put an amendment down to add to the list already in the first amendment shows, of course, the risk of lists. He well knows, because he is a very experienced Member of your Lordships’ House, that by including some, you exclude others. I really do not think that these amendments are necessary. It will be for Great British Energy to decide which stakeholders it might choose to consider and consult. It is inconceivable to me that any of the organisations listed in the amendments would not be regularly engaged with and consulted by Great British Energy.

I now turn to Amendment 116 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. My noble friend Lady Young spoke to it, as did the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. It was also supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. This amendment proposes a new clause which would put a new duty on Great British Energy to contribute to climate-change and nature targets. I, of course, note the comments made by noble Lords in relation to what happened in respect of the Crown Estate Bill. I welcome the Intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I do not see any circumstances at this moment in which pig-breeding would be encompassed within the work of Great British Energy, but I suppose you never know.

The same could have been said of Introductions. As I said, it did not intend to go into pig breeding when it set the company up.

We will reflect very keenly on that between Committee and Report.

There is no doubt about the argument. We are facing a twin climate and nature crisis. They are inextricably linked. Not only are the Government committed to reaching net zero by 2050 and clean power by 2030, we are also committed to restoring nature—for example, with the Environment Act targets in England to halt the decline in species abundance by 2030—and to effectively protect our marine protected areas as part of our global 30-by-30 commitment.

We know that the UK is one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world, so it is not enough for us to protect or conserve. This is why the Government are committed to restoring nature through such targets, and our related international commitments. The real opportunity available to the UK is to deliver clean power by 2030 in a way that does not simply avoid or compensate for damage to nature, but is constantly innovating to deliver the target in a nature-positive way, such as rewetting lowland peat soils at the same time as constructing new solar farms or creating new wildlife corridors alongside or underneath linear energy infrastructure. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to that potential earlier in our previous debate.

It is not so much about balancing energy and infrastructure needs but about trying to integrate them, rebuilding our natural infrastructure at the same time as building the new energy infrastructure we need in the 21st century. It is significant that in the Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, the Government have said that we

“will launch an engagement exercise in early 2025 to invite communities, civil society and wider stakeholders to submit their ideas on how government can best encourage nature-positive best practice into energy infrastructure planning and development. Feedback from this exercise will allow government to better understand how we can integrate nature restoration through Clean Power 2030”.

We want Great British Energy to focus on its mission of driving clean energy deployment, but I have listened very carefully to what noble Lords have said today and I understand the point that noble Lords are making about the Crown Estate Bill. I assure noble Lords that we are going to reflect on this between Committee and Report.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Howell for his support for my Amendment and all other noble Lords who referred to my amendment in the debate. I appreciated the whole debate, and I am grateful to the Minister for his thoughtful reply. There will be another opportunity to discuss the same kind of thing in a future group, of which he is aware, so I will have an opportunity to return to that. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 56A (to Amentment 56) withdrawn.

My Lords, I shall make a few brief points. I take the point made by the Minister about the list system with Amendment 66, but I hope we can get some assurance leading up to Report on the stakeholders that Great British Energy will engage with.

On Amendment 56A, without retreading some of the debate on previous groups, I support what the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is saying about this. There is clear consensus that GBN should remain a separate organisation from Great British Energy, but that is not to say that Great British Energy cannot invest in nuclear projects—fuels, components or nuclear batteries, for example. Clearly, there is an important interface there.

I was very encouraged by what the Minister said on Amendment 116 about the importance of the consistency, and by the strong arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on the Crown Estate Bill and consistency with other legislation. I also enjoyed the interesting and unique angle that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, had on his support for Amendment 56. I look forward to further discussion with the Minister between now and Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56 withdrawn.

Amendments 57 and 58 not moved.

Clause 5 agreed.

House resumed.

Sitting suspended.