Lord Vaux of Harrowden:

Moved by Lord Vaux of Harrowden

51: Clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—“(1A) The Secretary of State must comply with subsection (1) within the period of six months beginning with the day on which this Act comes into force.”Member's explanatory statementThis Amendment would introduce a time limit by which the Secretary of State must prepare and publish the statement of strategic priorities.

My Lords, in moving Amendment 51, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for their support on this.

In many ways, this group addresses the key problem with this Bill: namely, that it includes no detail at all as to what GBE will do. There are no objectives of any sort in the Bill. We have discussed previously the difference between objectives, of which there are none, and the objects in Clause 3, which simply restrict the company’s activities. There is absolutely nothing in this Bill against which success can be measured or the use of public money measured and scrutinised.

The last group was about what the statement of strategic priorities required under Clause 5 should include. That debate demonstrated clearly how much better it would be if we had the statement of strategic priorities before the Bill finishes its process through this House. The Minister said clearly on the last group that that is not going to happen, which makes this group much more important.

This group is about the process by which the statement should be published and scrutinised. In response to some of the concerns that have been raised in this respect, the Minister said at Second Reading:

“On the structure of the Bill, noble Lords will know that this was laid in the Commons very soon after the election as an early priority of the Government. Because of that, we have focused, inevitably, on the provisions that are fundamental to the establishment of Great British Energy. Clearly, we are still working through some of the policy issues on which we need to come to a view”.—[Official Report, 18/11/24; col. 98.]

Others have described that as meaning, “We will make it up as we go along”. It is quite hard to disagree.

The Minister referred earlier to having found the right balance. I find that a difficult concept, given that there is no balance. There is nothing at all about the strategic objectives of Great British Energy in this Bill—that is not a balance. However we look at it, we are being asked to scrutinise a Bill when we have no information as to what the Government are planning and no meaningful impact assessment on those plans.

This Bill looks rather like a skeleton Bill: a Bill where most of the detail is added by the Government at a later date. This Government, when in Opposition, were rightly critical of the use of skeleton Bills by the last Government. I agreed with them then and I agree with them now. However, there is an important distinction between this skeleton Bill and the more usual skeleton Bills that we have seen in the past. In a typical skeleton Bill, the Government give themselves the ability to add the missing detail by means of statutory instruments. We all recognise that the scrutiny of statutory instruments is not that strong, but parliamentary scrutiny does take place and there is at least the theoretical ability for Parliament to decline them. In this Bill, no such scrutiny of the strategic priorities is available. The Government will simply publish the statement of strategic priorities at some unknown future date, and there will be no opportunity at all for Parliament to debate it, and certainly no opportunity for Parliament to amend or decline it.

That is clearly unsatisfactory, and your Lordships’ Constitution Committee said so in its report dated 28 November, in which it pointed out that,

“in the light of the centrality of Great British Energy to the delivery of a significant policy initiative, we are concerned that clauses 5 and 6 amount to ‘disguised legislation’”.

It went on to say:

“We are concerned that clauses 5 and 6 do not offer an adequate degree of parliamentary oversight”.

I cannot disagree with any of that.

All that my Amendment 51 in this group would do is place a time limit on when the statement of strategic priorities must be laid. At the moment, rather astonishingly, there is no time limit. The Secretary of State must prepare a statement but the Bill is silent as to when—it could be 10 years or more. With hindsight, I think that six months, as I have put in the amendment, is perhaps too long, but, whatever, there must be a time limit; it cannot be open-ended. It cannot be satisfactory that GBE can carry on its activities for an unlimited period without even setting out the strategic priorities.

Can the Minister explain what the rules of engagement will be for GBE before the statement of strategic priorities has been published? My understanding is that, at least initially, GBE’s activities will be carried out on its behalf by the National Wealth Fund, previously known as the UK Infrastructure Bank. Presumably those activities will be subject to the framework document and the accountability and reporting regime that applies to the National Wealth Fund. Is that correct? At what point will GBE be able to invest in its own right? Can it invest before the statement of strategic priorities has been published? If it can, that investment would be subject only to the whim of the Government, and subject to no strategy or objectives and to no real accountability or transparency. I do not believe that that is acceptable.

Another question that has occurred to me while thinking about this group is whether the statement of strategic priorities will be accompanied by an impact assessment, given that the impact assessment that accompanies this Bill basically says that it has no effect because it does not do anything. It is really important that, when we know what it is going to do, there is an accompanying impact assessment. Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether there will be an impact assessment on the statement of strategic priorities.

Amendment 52, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, would require the statement to be withdrawn if either House of Parliament resolved not to approve it. I think she has actually been rather restrained here. Her amendment is the equivalent of the negative procedure for a statutory instrument. I would have been more tempted to require it to be at least subject to the affirmative procedure, which I think is what the noble Earl, Lord Russell, is proposing with his Amendment 54.

Given the concerns raised by the Constitution Committee, which I referred to earlier, I am entirely supportive of at least Amendment 52, and probably of making this subject to the affirmative rather than negative procedure. After all, the statement of strategic priorities is the critical feature of this Bill; it is the only element that will set out what GBE will try to achieve. The Government seem to be effectively trying to sidestep proper scrutiny by delaying its publication to an unspecified date after GBE has started to carry out its activities—whatever they are going to be—with no ability for Parliament to have a say and nothing against which to measure success.

Even with Amendment 52 or Amendment 54, we still need a time limit; it cannot go on for ever. There is another way to achieve this, which the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has proposed in her Amendment 119, and others have proposed in other ways in a later group: to delay the commencement of the Bill until the statement has been laid before, and preferably approved by, Parliament. That might be a preferable way to achieve this. However we do it, it cannot be acceptable for GBE to be able to spend substantial amounts of taxpayers’ money for an unlimited time without at the very least the statement of strategic priorities having been laid before Parliament and preferably scrutinised by it.

I look forward to hearing what noble Lords have to say on these and the other amendments in this group. I hope that the Minister will be supportive of strengthening the level of accountability in the Bill, as he has been in the past for other Bills. I beg to move.

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 51 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and I also have four other amendments in this group. One of my concerns about the Bill is that Great British Energy is the last in a long line of unelected quangos, which have precious little parliamentary oversight and weak accountability processes. All the amendments in this group in one way or another seek to increase the role of Parliament, and thereby go some way towards remedying the accountability deficit that exists in the Bill.

As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has already reminded the Committee, the Constitution Committee has called out Clause 5 as being disguised legislation. I agree with that. I do not agree with it in relation to Clause 6, which I will explain when we get to that clause. The important thing is that this underlines the need for strong parliamentary processes around Clause 5.

Amendment 51 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, is important. If the Secretary of State delays setting out his strategic priorities, the company, Great British Energy, will be left rudderless and may start to spend taxpayers’ money in ways that are not in line with what the Secretary of State wishes to prioritise. Alternatively, a less generous perspective is that the Secretary of State might delay issuing the statement of strategic priorities in order to delay laying it before Parliament and thereby exposing it to public scrutiny.

There is no unanimity even among the green lobby as to what would amount to a good use of taxpayers’ money under the Great British Energy banner. Some of the things that the Secretary of State might choose to prioritise may well horrify some of the climate activists. We might expect nuclear to be one of those examples. The Secretary of State could probably get Great British Energy to act in accordance with his wishes without going through the Clause 5 process by using—or more likely, threatening to use—the Clause 6 power of direction, which we will debate later. He could thereby sidestep public and parliamentary scrutiny for quite some time.

Whichever analysis is the correct one, it is clearly important that we ensure that there is a public statement of priorities as soon as possible. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, generously allows for six months after the Act comes into force. I could easily argue for less time, but six months is good enough for today’s debate.

On the question of timing, I also note that in Clause 3 there is no time limit for the Secretary of State to lay his statement after he has prepared it. Amendment 51 concentrates on a time limit for the preparation of the statement, but similarly does not have a time for when it has to be laid before Parliament. That is another defect in this clause that we will need to seek to remedy on Report.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has already referred to some of my amendments. Amendment 119 is another way of making sure that the strategic priorities statement is pursued quickly. It allows Clause 5 to come into effect immediately after Royal Assent, but the rest of the Bill cannot come into effect until the statement is laid before Parliament. Importantly, that means that Great British Energy could not make any practical progress until the statement of strategic priorities had been dealt with in accordance with Clause 5.

Amendment 52 tackles a different problem, namely the toothless involvement of Parliament in the statement of strategic priorities. As we have heard, under Clause 5 the Secretary of State merely has to lay a copy of that statement, or any replacement statement, before Parliament. That is it. Parliament has no say whatever. My Amendment 52 gives each House of Parliament 40 sitting days to resolve not to approve it, and in that event the Secretary of State has to withdraw it and have another go. That is the procedure adopted, for example, in relation to the national procurement policy statement published under Section 13 of the Procurement Act 2023. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has suggested, it is probably the lightest of the parliamentary procedures that are available to give Parliament some opportunity to challenge the Secretary of State’s priorities.

The amendment from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, is in similar territory but would require the Secretary of State to table a Motion. It does not, however, specify what that Motion might be or the consequences if the Motion were not agreed. There could be other formulations for parliamentary oversight of the strategic priorities. The important point is that it should not be a “take it or leave it” situation when Parliament is given the statement of strategic priorities. Parliament is entitled to some substantive involvement in the priorities.

My Amendment 128 is a companion amendment to Amendment 52. It is similar in structure to Amendment 119 so that the commencement of the Act after Royal Assent, other than in relation to Clause 5, would be delayed until 40 sitting days had passed. That would ensure that GBE could not be operationalised until Parliament had had an opportunity to consider the statement of priorities. That is a belt-and-braces addition to Amendment 52.

Lastly, my Amendment 58 in this group is also intended to enhance Parliament’s oversight of Great British Energy. Under Clause 5(8), Great British Energy’s articles of association have to ensure that GBE will publish its own strategic plans and act in accordance with the statement of strategic priorities. My Amendment 58 goes further and would require GBE to send a copy of the plans to the Secretary of State, who then has to lay them before Parliament. It is clearly insufficient for Great British Energy simply to upload its strategic plans to its website. There needs to be a formal communication of those plans to Parliament. That is all that my amendment is aimed at, and I hope that is not controversial.

The broad thrust of all the amendments in this group is effective parliamentary engagement. The Minister might not like the detail of the amendments, but he ought to subscribe to the notion that effective parliamentary engagement in the work of quangos is necessary. I hope he will see that the parliamentary involvement allowed for in the Bill falls short by some way. I am sure the whole Committee would be delighted if the Minister were to take this issue away and bring forward government amendments to achieve proper recognition of the role of Parliament in Great British Energy’s scrutiny. If he is unable to do that, I am sure we will need to return to this aspect on Report.

I will speak to Amendments 53 and 90 in my name. Before I do, I lend my support to the two authors of the other amendments who have spoken. In particular, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on his Amendment and on setting out the problems of Clause 5.

I am a fan of the National Wealth Fund. I have been watching the Norwegian series on BBC Four, which ended at the point when Norway set up its sovereign wealth fund with the proceeds from oil and gas in the North Sea. I could not quite understand why we did not do the same when we were receiving all the profits that we did. We have fallen behind Norway in living standards in that time.

The points from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about the relationships of GBE and its ability to raise funds, were very well made. Previously in Committee we have questioned what its relationship to the National Wealth Fund will be. This goes to the heart of what the national transition plan for the National Wealth Fund will be. We keep hearing that there will be a transition plan, but I would be interested to know what that plan will be and what its relationship with the National Wealth Fund and GB Energy will be.

When will we see the sector-specific road maps for the five priority sectors? Will they be in the impact assessment or come at a later stage? Some clarity in this regard would be good, as well as some greater engagement at this stage between investors, both those of the National Wealth Fund and GBE, to raise these new funds, and to have local authorities develop projects and propositions which are investable as well. I lend my support to the amendments in this group in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and my noble friend Lady Noakes.

On that theme, I have asked that

“a copy of the statement, and of any revised or replacement statement” should be not just laid before Parliament but, in addition to Clause 5(3), sent to the relevant Select Committees. Having chaired a Select Committee for five years, I believe that their work is extremely important, both in the other place and in this House. It is obviously up to them to determine which reports they will look into, but I am sure that the noble Lord will look favourably upon that avenue of parliamentary scrutiny.

Amendment 90 is on the same theme. It relates to Clause 7 and the publication of annual accounts and reports, but it goes to the heart of the ability of GBE to raise the funds necessary, and asks that a statement

“be made in each House” for that purpose. These are obviously probing amendments but what this group of amendments, from all noble Lords, shows is that the Committee is not content with the level of parliamentary scrutiny in either House at this time. We are taking a lot on trust and passing over a lot of power and decision-making to the Government. I believe that if it is worthy of scrutiny, the noble Lord and the Government should not be frightened of parliamentary scrutiny: that is the main thrust of the amendments in this group.

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lady McIntosh that the Bill is defective so far in terms of parliamentary scrutiny and involvement. I have added my name to Amendment 51, so ably proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, and my noble friend Lady Noakes. It requires the Secretary of State to prepare the statement of strategic priorities for GBE within six months. That is quite an easy target. Perhaps when the Minister thinks about this—of course, I am very optimistic that he will come back with his own proposal to deal with the lack of accountability—he could suggest a shorter timescale within which the Secretary of State might lay out the statement of strategic priorities. As has been said, at Second Reading many noble Lords expressed the view that it is a pity that that is not in the Bill.

I apologise to the Committee that I was not able to be present on the first day, when we discussed the objects which refer to clean energy but with little detail. It is very unclear, as other noble Lords have said, what Great British Energy is going to do and particularly how it will relate to other companies and entities in the same space.

I also support Amendment 52 in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes. It is right not only to prepare the statement of strategic priorities but to give both Houses 40 days to approve it or not. On reflection, I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that it perhaps should be subject to the affirmative rather than the negative procedure.

I look forward to hearing my noble friend Lord Effingham speak to Amendment 57. He rightly proposes that the consultations with devolved Administrations should take place before the publication of the statement of strategic priorities. However, this only goes to show how essential it is, as many of us believe, that we have a co-ordinated national strategy, given that devolution has taken place over many areas of our national life, as it would be cheaper and make more sense. But we are not in that place, and we have to take account of the settlement of the devolved Administrations that exists. So, it is obviously absolutely essential, and I hope the Minister will confirm that he will make sure that the policies put forward and GBE’s strategic priorities will not be squabbled over by the devolved Administrations.

My noble friend Lady Noakes, with her usual forensic expertise, has also identified that the articles of association of GBE need to make sure that it is able to prepare the strategic plans, and that the articles must empower the company to do that. It must reflect the Secretary of State’s statement of strategic priorities.

Lastly, I also support Amendment 119, proposed by my noble friend Lady Noakes, which deals with the accountability and other provisions which must not take effect until after the statement of strategic priorities is laid before Parliament.

My Lords, I too support the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. It strikes me that the real problem with the Bill is that if nothing happens with GB Energy, the Secretary of State intervenes. On the whole, politicians intervening in investment decisions does not have a very good history, and an awful lot of taxpayers’ money has been wasted. Therefore, it would be a very good idea if there was a system of reporting back to Parliament.

The real problem with the whole energy scene in this country is that the private sector is well in there already. I am not sure how committed these people are to energy, but they are certainly very good at crunching the numbers. Of course, with any project, they establish that the supply of, say, wind, is reasonably constant in a certain area. Then, the key thing is the feed-in tariff that they negotiate. That gives them a guaranteed cashflow. Among other things, with wind turbines they even managed to negotiate that they get paid when the wind is blowing and nobody wants the energy. So, if you can do that, it seems to be relatively easy to make money on these things.

If you want to put up wind turbines, there is no problem getting private finance. It is the more vexed areas of energy where you will find people with DeLoreans appearing, saying, “I’ve got a wonderful scheme all organised for carbon capture”, or something that is incredibly difficult in technological terms—or indeed nuclear fusion, come to that, which is another very hard nut to crack. It would be wonderful if we could have nuclear fusion power stations pumping out energy, but we are still a very long way from getting there. What guarantees do we have that taxpayers’ money will not be ploughed into these things and an awful lot of money completely wasted?

I would like to pick up some remarks from my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering. She was concerned that GB Energy would have great problems raising finance. That is not quite the way it works. You actually get tiered finance when it comes to some of these projects, and I can tell noble Lords what the tiers will be: a whole lot of outside investors will get their money back almost whatever happens, and all the high-risk capital will be produced by GB Energy. GB Energy will be the one that will lose absolutely everything if it goes wrong and make a minimal amount of money if it goes right.

We need to be very wary about all this, which is why I support these amendments. It is important that Parliament has some check on all this and is able to say whether it thinks it is a good idea or a bad one. That discipline on the Secretary of State will be very important. Otherwise, I see politicians wheeling off, backing all sorts of incredibly speculative ventures and losing taxpayers’ money as a result. I am not sure that anybody in this House wants to see that happen.

My Lords, perhaps I could come back into the real world. I agree with the amendments and their purpose but let us be clear: there is a duopoly in this Parliament that stops negative or fatal resolutions ever being passed in either House. We may say that we agree that an affirmative or negative resolution is needed on something equivalent to secondary legislation. In this Parliament, the practical effect—in relation to what is already in the Bill—is zero because the Labour and Conservative Parties have a duopoly agreement that they will not vote fatally on secondary legislation Motions. To the outside world, all the rhetoric in this debate looks great but, even if it went into the Bill, the effect would be zero. I wanted to make that point because I believe that if you look at this with a democratic point of view from outside this building, the workings of secondary legislation in this Parliament would be seen as completely fatuous.

May I just say to the noble Lord that what was proposed in my Amendment was not secondary legislation? It was the simple possibility of a Motion to disapprove of something. It did not fall within the category of secondary legislation, therefore the convention does not apply.

I accept that point entirely, except I cannot see this Parliament rejecting such a strategy under any circumstances, however it is dressed up. But I fully respect the intentions of the amendments in the names of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness.

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 57 in my name. It addresses an essential aspect of transparency and accountability in the development of Great British Energy, as outlined in Clause 5.

This amendment ensures that all consultations conducted under Clause 5(4) to (6), which are critical for the development and implementation of Great British Energy, are not only carried out but made fully accessible to the public and—more importantly—to Parliament.

In the modern world, transparency in governance is not just a nice to have: it is an absolute must-have. It is essential that both public and Parliament have access to the results of consultations that influence decisions on policies with such far-reaching consequences.

The energy sector is at the heart of the challenges we face today—whether it be securing a sustainable, affordable and clean energy supply for generations to come or meeting the ambitious carbon reduction goals that are integral to our environmental commitments. The implications of these decisions extend to every household and business and, indeed, to the global environment and climate. Too often, decisions are made by Administrations around the world which are disconnected from the lived realities of those who will be most affected. It is crucial that we bridge this gap. This amendment ensures that the voices of all stakeholders are heard.

Can we consider the important role of the devolved nations of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? As your Lordships are aware, energy policy intersects deeply with our devolved Administrations. Each nation has its own priorities, challenges and opportunities, and the decisions made here and in the other place must reflect the needs and perspectives of all four nations that make up the United Kingdom.

Amendment 57 achieves precisely that. It ensures that the devolved nations are not sidelined in the policy- making process. Wales has made remarkable progress in renewable energy, with a strong focus on wind, solar and tidal power. The Welsh Government have set ambitious decarbonisation targets and are actively working to ensure that local communities reap the benefits of this transition.

Similarly, in Scotland, the commitment to renewable energy is unwavering. The Scottish Government have set an ambitious target of achieving net-zero emissions by 2045 and are at the forefront of offshore wind development. Scotland’s energy needs and leadership in green energy make it essential that consultations reflect the interests and priorities of the Scottish people.

In Northern Ireland, energy security and cross-border co-operation are key priorities. It is crucial that the people of Northern Ireland are given a voice in consultations, ensuring that their specific needs are met and that their priorities are reflected in the broader energy strategy.

We are tasked with crafting the energy system of the future—one that is sustainable, secure and equitable—and this is a huge responsibility. This amendment is not just a procedural adjustment; it is a vital step in upholding public trust and respect for our devolved neighbours.

In conclusion, this amendment provides a safeguard that guarantees transparency and accountability in the Bill. It ensures that decisions are made with full consideration of the needs and concerns of those most affected by them, laying the groundwork for a more sustainable and resilient energy system. This is a step towards a more responsible energy policy that will benefit not only this generation but generations to come.

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 54 in this group and signal our support for Amendments 51, 53, 57 and 58. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his excellent introduction to this group of amendments and for setting out everything so ably.

Jumping to the end, it appears to me that the settled will of the Committee is that something should be done on this issue; I suggest one way to achieve that would be for the Government to bring forward their own amendment before Report. It might be that further collective discussions happen between now and Report. Everyone has a slightly different way of doing this, and I do not think that anyone has the answer—it is something that needs more work. However, the settled opinion of the Committee seems to be that there needs to be some check on this part of the Bill.

I said previously that the Bill is a little too short for its own good. I understand the Minister’s concerns about having lists and the problems with them, and why he does not want them. We are in favour of the Bill and we do not want to stand in its way. This is a manifesto commitment that the Government are delivering. However, as it stands, it has numerous issues. No timescales are provided for when it must be done. Although there is a condition to lay this before Parliament, as has been said, there is no parliamentary process to scrutinise, question, amend, approve or reject the strategic priorities. There is a condition to consult the devolved Governments, but, if they all unanimously said that they had the same problem with the strategic objectives, there is no way for Parliament to know that that happened, and there is also no way for them to reject or change the strategic priorities. It feels a bit unusual to be in this potion, because we are being asked to scrutinise and approve the Bill but we do not have the strategic priorities in front of us.

I welcome the constructive engagement that the Minister and his Bill team have had with us to date. He has been clear with us that these strategic priorities are being written and prepared. I recognise the need for urgency and that they are a new Government, but, ultimately, we are being asked to approve something when we do not know what it is. Indeed, the organisation itself has not written the strategic priorities, so the organisation does not know exactly what they are yet. That is a difficult position to be in.

However, there are ways forward through all of this. This quandary needs to be resolved through collective compromise and a meeting of minds. At a minimum, there need to be some guard-rails. Some general principles need to be laid out, including what will be in the priorities and a general sense of the outputs that GB Energy will be responsible for. That can be done—we can find a way to do that collectively. It should be done on Report.

Between now and Report, I would welcome the chance to have a conversation in which we can talk about this collectively. I do not want to delay Report—that is not the answer to this—but the Minister could put forward a draft publication for us. There could be draft heads of terms on what the current thinking is for GB Energy and the Ministers about what will and will not be included, as well as what has already been excluded. The Minister could give verbal assurances to this House from the Dispatch Box on some of these matters.

Finally, this amendment is my hard backstop, because it requires a resolution in both Houses. I will keep it in reserve. To be clear, in the final group of amendments, I have Amendment 122, which requires that the strategic priorities are “laid before Parliament”. I also have Amendment 123, which requires that they are laid and approved by Parliament, and Amendment 124, which is maybe more of a compromise on these issues. It would mean that the Bill cannot come into force

“unless a document setting out the thematic headings of the statement of strategic priorities have been laid before Parliament”.

Maybe somewhere around there is where we might be able to coalesce. In any case, this is an issue that needs further work and constructive compromise. My sense is that there are some concerns about these matters on all sides of the Committee. In the first debate on the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, mentioned that this needs to be in the Bill—I welcome that statement. I look forward to working with the Minister to find a solution.

My Lords, I was going to stand aside from this debate early in the process because of the mountain of expertise that is building up on all sides of this Committee against many aspects of the Bill. It is not our job to turn it down in this House, but it is our job to try to improve and rescue some of the bits that may be particularly dangerous and damaging, of which there are several that we will no doubt come to. I was going to stay silent, but my noble friend Lord Effingham’s splendid speech touched on so many of the fundamental problems that are so obvious in this exercise—setting up this kind of body with this kind of money.

We have of course been here before. We went over this again and again in the 1960s, with the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation, when almost exactly the same arguments were used. Many of us on all sides—it was not partisan—questioned whether that bright idea of Harold Wilson and a Mr Cant, one of its designers, would work. I hope now that we leave our mark of doubt and scepticism about whether this whole approach works.

The IRC failed because the belief prevalent among economists at the time was that if you built big and created such things as British Leyland, size would deliver. Unfortunately, size did not deliver and there was a mood and a realisation—this was long before the digital revolution—that size might have diseconomies, as was then proved with projects such as British Leyland, a disaster from which Japanese inward investment 10 or 20 years later saved us. That was the third reason why I was not going to say very much at this stage.

I apologise for being a few minutes late for the Minister’s excellent speech on the last set of amendments, but there was a gap, something which he did not mention. My noble friend Lord Hamilton intervened about Sizewell. The Minister then produced the standard line on Sizewell, but he did not mention money. Yet money is the whole issue in organising our resources for the energy transition to come, which will be fearfully expensive, particularly if we have to leave unused a very large chunk of intermittent supporting energy—nuclear and other sorts—for the 3,000 hours every year when the wind does not blow. Until we get to the hydrogen stage, which we are a decade or so off, I suspect, that will leave a big gap to fill with otherwise idle machinery—which is very expensive indeed if it is not earning or producing. None of that has been touched on yet. The more that I listen to this, the more I see that we are heading into a nightmare of expenditure problems and dilemmas.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, with his ruthless clarity, hinted that this is the way things are going. The only saving grace from here is to have a system of accountability, a strategy and a clear and honest recognition of the colossal dilemmas ahead and the timescale, particularly for nuclear. Perhaps we will not discuss nuclear very much, although there are related amendments, but the issues of not only cost but timescale have been totally ignored.

There is chatter around, although even the Government estimate that Sizewell C will cost about £20 billion, as opposed to whatever Hinkley C is now running at. My bet would be that it is much nearer to £30 billion than £20 billion, but never mind about that. The question is: who has the money? The Government have not got it. Governments all across the world, and certainly our Government, are underwater on debt, understandably reluctant to tax more and not really able to borrow more. It will have to be done with the private sector, but the private sector will not touch something like Sizewell C, which is a dodgy EPR design that has not worked well anywhere in the world so far.

The timescale for Sizewell C is probably the mid to late 2030s. The alternatives of the new technologies in nuclear—I am sorry to bring this into a non-nuclear discussion—are massive. Rolls-Royce is talking about being able to deliver clean green electricity by 2030 or 2031. No one, even a super-optimist, believes that Sizewell C can touch our electricity supply before 2037 or 2038; I bet it will turn out to be 2040 or later still. These things have not been touched on yet, so goodness knows how we will deal with them as we come to all the amendments lying ahead. The one saving grace is that we would have a chance for both Houses and those who are informed about these things to point out at every point some of the further dangers and damages into which this entire structure will slump.

That is what one has to add at this stage. I am afraid that the Minister will not be pleased to hear that ahead lies a vast pile of questions and doubts about this project and the philosophy behind it—a philosophy of setting up large, semi-state-owned or state-owned organisations to push through things that apparently cannot be produced by the private sector alone. The philosophy simply does not work in the digital age. It did not work with the IRC before the digital age, it will not work in the digital age, and it will not work in the AI age. The nature of the economy is quite different from even 20 or 30 years ago. These are the problems which now have to be addressed, and they certainly will not be addressed by this.

I am afraid that we are heading for a lot more amendments on the detail of everything I have said. In the meantime, both the amendments that have been debated are excellent and should be accepted by the Government as part of the vital need for Parliament to have a regular, continuous, accountable and effective say, maybe with a special Select Committee. We invented Select Committees in the 1960s and they worked very well for departments. The Select Committees here are excellent and produce superb reports. Maybe this is an area where we need to beef up our own penetrating techniques on Select Committees and reports, to ensure that there are no more blunders ahead. I would bet $100 or more, if I was a betting man, which I am not, that there are plenty of blunders coming along, written into the Bill as it stands.

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed: the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for opening this group, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and my noble friends Lord Hamilton, Lord Effingham, Lord Howell, Lord Trenchard and Lady McIntosh. I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Noakes for her detailed scrutiny of the Bill and her expertise.

The debate has raised crucial issues regarding how our energy future is shaped, particularly community energy, transparency and the governance of strategic priorities. It is evident that we in this House today share many of the same concerns about the absence of a statement of strategic priorities and plans. I reiterate that this is in the context of the Bill being responsible for £8.3 billion of taxpayers’ money, with no detail as to GBE’s plans, priorities, objectives and purpose. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said, the Bill is merely a skeleton, providing unabridged powers to the Secretary of State without clarity on how they can be used.

With that in mind, I welcome Amendment 119, tabled by my noble friend Lady Noakes, which would delay the commencement of other provisions in the Bill until a statement of strategic priorities has been laid before Parliament. This is a sensible and necessary step to ensure that Parliament and the public have sight of the plans that will guide the operation of this great new company, GBE. Furthermore, Amendment 58 would ensure that Parliament is made aware of Great British Energy’s strategic priorities, and Amendment 52 would give Parliament the power to reject a statement of strategic priorities once received. We cannot, in good conscience, simply allow this Bill to proceed without the opportunity to scrutinise these priorities, which will guide £8.3 billion of taxpayers’ investment.

Amendment 51 would introduce a clear time limit for the Secretary of State to publish the statement, while Amendment 54 would ensure that a motion for resolution is tabled in both Houses of Parliament. These amendments provide the necessary transparency and accountability to ensure that Parliament can scrutinise and approve those priorities before any further steps are taken. The Bill cannot and should not proceed until we have seen the strategic priorities.

This brings me to the question of whether Clause 5 should stand part of the Bill. In its report, the Constitution Committee expressed concern that Clauses 5 and 6 amount to disguised legislation and that Clause 5 does not offer an adequate degree of parliamentary oversight. This is a serious constitutional issue, and I hope that the Minister takes the committee’s concerns seriously as we continue our debate.

Amendment 53, tabled by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, seeks to insert a provision into Clause 5 requiring the Secretary of State to produce a statement to the chairs of the relevant Select Committees in both Houses of Parliament. This amendment is fundamentally about transparency, and its purpose is simple: to ensure that Parliament can properly scrutinise the actions of the Secretary of State and guarantee that public money is being used efficiently and in the public interest. This is why we propose that a copy of a strategic statement be sent to the relevant Select Committees for their review and input.

As discussed earlier on Amendment 57, tabled by my noble friend Lord Effingham, transparency is not a luxury; it is a necessity. Transparency ensures that decisions are made openly and subject to public and parliamentary scrutiny. He brought to our attention consideration of the requirement that GBE deal with the devolved Administrations throughout the UK.

Finally, Amendment 90 seeks to insert at the end of Clause 7 the provision that the Secretary of State must

“arrange for a statement to be made in each House”.

The intent behind this amendment is to ensure that the actions of the Government in relation to Great British Energy are made public and accountable. For such a significant and impactful initiative, there must be a mechanism for direct communication with Parliament. This would allow both Houses to question, debate and hold the Government to account on any developments or changes in the direction of the company.

A comparison has already been drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, with the National Wealth Fund, previously the UK Infrastructure Bank. That organisation experienced thorough scrutiny and testing before its establishment. Why should we treat GBE any differently? If we expect such rigorous assessment for the UK Infrastructure Bank, it stands to reason that a similar level of transparency and parliamentary scrutiny should apply to Great British Energy. I urge noble Lords to support this amendment, as it reinforces the principles of accountability that should be at the heart of this Bill.

In conclusion, I welcome the amendments and the ongoing discussions regarding the strategic priorities and transparency of Great British Energy. The strategic priorities are critical to the success of the Bill, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have expressed similar concerns. I reiterate my support for my noble friend Lady Noakes and all other noble Lords who have raised similar issues.

My Lords, I am most grateful again to noble Lords who have raised a number of very interesting points in relation to Clause 5 and the statement of strategic priorities. I remind the Committee that the founding statement set out GBE’s purpose, priorities and objectives, including its mission statements and its five functions. The first statement of strategic priorities is intended to ensure that Great British Energy will be focused on driving clean energy deployment, boosting energy independence, creating jobs and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy.

Clearly, Clause 5 is important in that respect. The noble Lord, Lord Offord, will not be surprised that I will resist his Opposition to it standing part of the Bill. He made another point in relation to the investment bank legislation. I understand the point; he knows that we have looked at this legislation and taken parts from it, but we have also looked at Great British Nuclear, which his Government put through in the last Energy Act. In some cases, we think that that is appropriate to look at in relation to the way this legislation has been framed.

Amendments 51, 52, 53, 54, 57, 58, 90, 119 and 128 all refer to the statement of strategic priorities, with some amendments seeking to defer commencement of the Bill in relation to the statement. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, always speaks with great experience on energy, and he is threatening us with many more amendments the next time we meet. We believe that the best way to get stability on prices and security of energy, and to deal with climate change, is to move in the way that we have set out. Numerous organisations have looked at it and say that, in the context of value for money, investment decisions and cost to government, this will be the cheapest way forward in the end, and that staying reliant on fossil fuels, with the unreliability of the international market, would not be a productive use of our resources and would do nothing for climate change. That is why we are going down this path.

I come to the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and his opening remarks on this group. We do not wish to escape parliamentary scrutiny. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that we do not want to weaken accountability processes. I assure her that there is no way we will use the power of direction in the way that she suggested might happen. She referred to the power of direction and from what she said I took it that she thought it could be used in a way which would simply direct GBE, instead of the statement of priorities, but perhaps I have confused that.

The noble Lord might like to read Hansard. I did not say that, but I do not think that need hold us up. We are not talking about the power of direction in this set of amendments.

I know we are coming to that in later amendments, so I will certainly do that.

I understand the points that noble Lords are making about parliamentary involvement in the statement of strategic priorities. I have read the report of the House of Lords Constitution Committee. The Government have no interest whatever in delaying the statement of strategic priorities in order to escape parliamentary scrutiny. I would have thought that the publication of our clean power action plan, and the work of the National Energy System Operator in its advice to the Government of a few weeks ago, would suggest that getting to 2030 in the way we wish to do will be very challenging. We believe we can do it, but we cannot mess around.

The statement of strategic priorities is certainly an important element in allowing Great British Energy to move forward, but we have to work through a number of important issues. We have to consult the devolved Governments. I take the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, about the need for that to be a thorough process, and that will take time. Time is imperative. There are issues about the delay that would be built into this, if we were to accept some of the amendments being proposed.

I hesitate to bite on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about the effectiveness of secondary legislation. I suppose the real response to him is that, in 1911, there was very little secondary legislation, and therefore the Parliament Act 1911 did not encompass it, the result being that your Lordships’ House has an absolute veto on secondary legislation, which it has been loath to use for very understandable reasons.

Amendment 53, from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, would require all versions of the statement of strategic priorities to be put before the chair of the relevant Select Committees. Clause 5 already requires the statement to be laid before Parliament, and the chairs of any relevant Select Committee could access the statement and any revised or replacement statements. I assure the noble Baroness that it is the normal practice of my department to provide such information on a regular basis to the chair of the energy Select Committee in the other place. Moreover, where Select Committees in your Lordships’ House have produced reports that are relevant to any announcement being made, it is normal practice to send a copy to the chairs of those Select Committees. I accept absolutely the principle of what she is proposing.

Let me be clear that the process of developing, agreeing and publishing the statement of strategic priorities is intended to enable the Secretary of State to provide strategic steers to Great British Energy within the framework of its objects, as set out in Clause 3. The statement of strategic priorities cannot overrule the objects clause in Great British Energy’s articles of association. Those objects set the overarching framework for Great British Energy. We believe it is right that the framework provided for in legislation is scrutinised by Parliament, through Clause 3, as we have already done in the previous day in Committee.

Clause 5 also provides that the statement of strategic priorities and any revisions must be laid before Parliament. Parliament will also be presented with a copy of the annual report and accounts of Great British Energy each year and will be able to hold it to account for its activities and its stewardship of public funds through the normal methods of accountability.

Additionally, we are of course considering the Constitution Committee report on the Bill. We are committed to proportionate parliamentary oversight. We believe our approach strikes the right balance between ensuring appropriate parliamentary scrutiny and avoiding a process that introduces uncertainty into Great British Energy’s actions.

On the issue of timing, as I have said, while we are setting up Great British Energy at pace and ramping up recruitment into initial key roles across it, we want it to be set up as quickly as possible so it can have an early impact.

We will engage with Ministers of the devolved Governments before publishing the statement of strategic priorities. We have reset the relationship with the devolved Governments and intend to work as collaboratively as possible with them. I take the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, about consultation within the communities in each of the devolved Governments. We think that we can establish a very good working relationship. The consultation with the devolved Governments is, in a sense, part of establishing the groundwork for such a relationship.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, posed some particularly interesting questions about the relationship with the National Wealth Fund. As Great British Energy scales up, we will set out how the two institutions will collaborate and complement each other. As he said, while it is being established we expect Great British Energy’s investment activity, set by its strategy, to be initially undertaken by the National Wealth Fund, but that would have to be done in line with the National Wealth Fund’s investment and operating principles. This will enable Great British Energy to invest quickly but draw on the National Wealth Fund’s experience and existing pipeline of projects. I also confirm that, while Great British Energy can undertake investment activity prior to the publication of the statement of strategic priorities, it would still be guided by the objects set out in this legislation as well as the systems of control and accountability over public spending, including the provisions of managing public money and the accountability of the principal accounting officer.

Amendment 57 would see us publishing detail of our correspondence with the devolved Governments. I do not think that would be appropriate, and mechanisms are in place for the collaboration to which I have already referred.

Amendment 90, from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, requires a Statement to be made to both Houses on the annual report and accounts of Great British Energy in addition to the requirement for the Secretary of State to lay a copy of that document before Parliament. As I have already discussed, we think Great British Energy’s annual report and accounts being laid before Parliament and made available to noble Lords as soon as they have been laid is appropriate, and they will be made publicly available, as is required under the Companies Act. Of course, Parliament has endless opportunities to probe and hold to account through questions, debates and Select Committee hearings.

Amendment 119 would seek to defer the commencement of other provisions in the Bill until the statement of strategic priorities under Clause 5 has been laid and approved before Parliament, and Amendment 128 would defer commencement of other provisions in the Bill until the expiry of the 40-day period referred to in Amendment 52 from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. We would be worried that this, in effect, would hinder our ability to act as quickly as we wish. However, I have listened very carefully to the debate, and I respond directly to the noble Earl, Lord Russell: we are obviously considering carefully the Constitution Committee report on the Bill and are committed to appropriate parliamentary oversight, but this is without commitment, and we also think there are very strong arguments for the way the Bill has been constructed at the moment.

There was one other question I asked the Minister which he has not answered, which is whether the strategic priorities document will be accompanied by an impact assessment. The impact assessment we have with this Bill basically says that there are no benefits or costs because all it does is create the company, so we are effectively going to go through this process of creating something that can spend £8.3 billion with no impact assessment if that does not happen. Will there perhaps be an impact assessment that accompanies it?

My Lords, at this stage, I cannot answer that because it is still to be decided as part of the work that we are taking forward in relation to drafting the statement.

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Before I sum up, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that I am not against this Bill. The problem we have here is the lack of any detail in it and the lack of any scrutiny once we have that detail, which is what the Constitution Committee pointed out. As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, pointed out, there is a high degree of unanimity around the House that the current situation set out in the Bill in that respect is really not adequate and that we need a greater level of parliamentary involvement in what will be the core element of this Bill: what GBE is going to do.

I take on board the points that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made about secondary legislation. I agree, but it is what we have at the moment, so we have little choice but to work with it. I would love to see a change to the way secondary legislation is debated, and it should be amendable, but we have a way to go before we come there.

There were plenty of ideas in this group as to how we might improve the scrutiny. I do not think any of us are wedded to any one of them. I am encouraged by what the Minister says about listening to the Constitution Committee and his belief in parliamentary scrutiny. I therefore hope that we can have some useful and constructive discussions between now and Report on this subject and come up with something that we can all agree on as an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny on this most critical aspect of the Bill. If we do not, I am absolutely confident that we will come back to this on Report. For now, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 51.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.