Baroness Taylor of Stevenage:

Moved by Baroness Taylor of Stevenage

61: Clause 7, page 7, line 5, at end insert—“(3A) The Secretary of State may not lay regulations under this section until he or she has deemed that establishment is supported by no less than 60% of residents in the area.”Member's explanatory statementThis means that a CCA is established only if the Secretary of State deems there is no less than 60% of support from the local residents.

My Lords, as we have already discussed this afternoon, the principle of consultation when fundamental changes are being made to governance structures is an important one. Amendment 61 is aimed at establishing the principle of public consultation in relation to the formation of a combined county authority and to setting a realistic threshold for the constitutional reform to proceed.

A fundamental principle of localism is that changes must be made with people and not to them. Without a provision in the Bill like this, it is too easy for a leader or a group of leaders, or even a Secretary of State, to take fundamental governance changes, such as the formation of a CCA, a long way without consulting those who will be affected by them. The complex structure of local government in the UK, which means some areas have multiple layers of local authorities overseeing services, makes this even more necessary. The amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Hayman outlines the process for ensuring that the outcome of the consultation process is publicly available, essentially before any submission to form a combined county authority is made.

Amendment 62 is designed to probe government thinking on the constitution of combined county authorities. With the rolling five-year housing targets potentially being removed, for example, is it the intention that governance structures should be able to consider the impact across a defined economic area, or do the Government envisage that the combined county authority will determine such matters for itself? If the latter is the case, is there to be an arbitration process which will help to determine where one economic area crosses boundaries with another? On the issue of non-constituent members of CCAs, for example, will it be the case that some members of authorities will be required to sit in more than one authority if it affects their economic geography?

Amendment 63 reflects on the nature of levelling-up missions and the significant part of the Bill that refers to planning matters. The Government may have assumed that co-operation between combined county authorities would take place in order, for example, to resolve boundary issues where a service is necessarily delivered across boundaries or where a planning matter either crosses boundaries or requires a facility delivered in one area to have the use of services provided in another. As I make these points, I am reminded of the example of Harlow and Gilston village, which sits in both Essex and Hertfordshire.

Planning history suggests that writing the duty of co-operation on the face of the Bill would be helpful. Whether we are talking about the delivery of missions across rural areas, or in urban areas such as London and Manchester, where the boundaries of CCAs may be complex, guidance and a framework for duties to co-operate would probably be helpful.

Amendment 64 is crucial, particularly as it is difficult to see how missions will be delivered at all with a patchwork quilt of non-coterminous boundaries between public bodies as they are currently constituted. This has been a long-standing issue in local government. The amendment will, for example, enable discussions about the impact of the rollout of ICSs on the potential for future health devolution—a really important issue. If we do not devolve the responsibility for health issues to these new authorities, we will not be able to tackle as effectively the inequalities in health that we discussed in earlier debates on the Bill.

It is welcome to note from the Greater Manchester population health plan that significant benefits have already been recorded for local residents following the devolution of health and social care to the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. This includes a substantial increase in school readiness and a smoking prevalence rate falling twice as fast as the national average. We definitely see the benefits of this, and we want to see it extended across other devolved areas. We would welcome further information from the Government on how they envisage the further devolution of health, police and crime commissioner powers, and other public functions which would enable the progress of the missions.

Amendment 65 is probably shaped by my long experience as a district councillor. We in district councils were very pleased to see the original amendment to Clause 18, which enshrines the role of district councils in determining the future governance of their areas; but I always believe in a belt and braces approach, particularly where the track record for inclusion has not always been consistent. The same applies to my colleagues in the National Association of Local Councils in respect of parish and town councils. We want everybody to be included in these discussions.

Lastly, Amendments 101 and 102 refer to the dissolution of CCAs. The first would require that public consultation take place before dissolution. If there is to be consultation on the setting up of a CCA, it follows that it should also take place if one is to be dissolved. Amendment 102 asks the Secretary of State to clarify, upon dissolution of a CCA, how local powers will be retained, and implicitly suggests that they will not return to central government. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on how that might work for the future. I beg to move.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 127, which appears in my name in this group, and to make a couple of brief comments on the amendments so clearly and comprehensively presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage.

I refer back to the terminology the noble Baroness used in the previous group when talking about what the spirit of devolution should be: it should surely be a democratic spirit. The decision about the shape of devolution should rest with the local people, the people who are actually affected. Historically, the perception and the reality of some instances of devolution has been deals done un-transparently, in the dark, in what would once have been smoke-filled rooms. The smoke may have gone, but that lack of transparency remains.

What we are seeking here is a different idea of devolution—devolution that is truly transparent and open, with local people in control of the process rather than having it inflicted on them. With that in mind, my Amendment 127 calls for a referendum to be conducted on whether a combined county authority should be established in a given area. It occurs to me, having listened to the debate on previous groups of amendments, that the amendment should say “established or disestablished”, but we are in Committee so we can explore these things as we go along.

I see that the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is in his place, so we might have already had extensive discussion about what happened in Sheffield, South Yorkshire and north Derbyshire. I will not, therefore, go into great detail on that, but it is worth noting that Sheffield voted against having a mayor and then, not long afterwards, found itself with a mayor.

I will also give a more positive, more recent example from Sheffield. Sheffield is the largest local authority to convert, through a referendum, from a Cabinet-based system to a modern committee-based system of government. I know many of the people who were involved in that campaign, which was led not by political parties but by a local community group. Many people said, “You’ll never get this referendum through. It’s all too technical, difficult and complicated, and people won’t understand.” But the referendum was voted through. It was a real vehicle for a huge amount of debate and discussion in the city about how it was run and administered, and how that could be done better. Putting a referendum in for CCAs would be a chance to have a discussion and a debate, and to really engage local people, which is what we need in our local areas to improve the quality of local governance.

Of course, the other recent example of such change, driven at the local level with decisions made by local people, is the city of Bristol deciding to get rid of its mayor. That was the decision that the people of the city made. Again, some said, “You’ll never get this referendum through; everyone is just going to shrug and it will all be too difficult.” But people were engaged and involved and they made the decision for themselves. Surely, that is what democracy means, and that is why I have tabled this amendment.

My Lords, I will make just one or two comments on this group. I have listened very carefully to this and the previous group and I think we have an opportunity for the Government to clarify a number of issues around consultation and, indeed, referendums. I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, said about referendums. What is needed is a statement from the Government, hopefully before Report, on what the nature of consultation should be. What would be deemed to meet a minimum requirement or threshold for there to be an official consultation?

Secondly, the Government need to be absolutely clear what their own powers should be in relation to a consultation: what they can require of a local authority or set of authorities. I welcome the fact that this discussion is taking place; it is really important. We have discussed before in recent years during the passage of previous Bills what local people have a right to expect of their consultation. I, too, in Newcastle, have been through a mayoral referendum, and the same thing happened. The decision was not to have a mayor, but, of course, we now have a mayor of the North East Combined Authority—for which, in fact, there was no referendum. Our referendum was within scope; I ask the Minister: are referendums out of scope?

Turning to Amendment 62, I was struck by one or two other very important issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, which the Government need to be a bit clearer about. The first was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock: travel-to-work areas. It all depends how big your CCA or other combined authority is geographically. A very important issue is raised in Amendment 62: whether the Government are thinking in terms of each CCA having a single economic hub. In a number of areas that would not be suitable. In my own part of the country, several travel-to-work areas apply. Hopefully, that point will not be forgotten by the Government.

Lastly, on Amendment 63, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, made another very important point about the duty to co-operate. When during previous Bills we have debated the duty to co-operate, the Government have always been very positive about having that duty placed clearly on the face of the Bill. But a CCA is not just being required to co-operate with a neighbouring CCA, but with all the other bodies that may relate to it. Given the ability of the public sector to operate across boundaries, both geographical and in terms of responsibilities and powers, it matters that the duty to co-operate is made absolutely clear at the outset.

My Lords, I will just make one or two additional comments to those of my Honourable Friend Lord Shipley, the main one concerning Amendment 126 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, about public consultation. I have been involved in a number of statutory instruments on the establishment of metropolitan combined authorities where the public consultation involving “the public” has been minimal, but it was agreed to be satisfactory because it enabled other local institutions—be it businesses, local council representatives or the LEPs—to respond. That has been labelled “public consultation”.

It seems that once they have been established, combined authorities of whatever nature will rely on public support. Public support will not be forthcoming if they have not been fully engaged with on the establishment of the mayoral authority. The examples given by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, were appropriate in this instance. bristol city council decided to get rid of its mayor. Surely that has to be available. Equally, it has to be writ large in the Bill that the public in an area have a right to have their voice heard prior to a combined county authority being established. In the end, they are the recipients of both the tax bill and the decisions made by that authority.

I emphasise the importance of coterminosity. It is not just economic geography or travel-to-work areas—call it what you will—it is about coterminosity with, for instance, police areas and national health areas. These make a big difference to a combined authority’s ability to make a substantial difference to the lives of people in that area. The new integrated care boards seem to have thrown out the idea of coterminosity, certainly where I live, and that will be a negative on their ability to do their best for local people.

The only other point I want to make is about the right for the Government in Clause 24 to dissolve a CCA, and again the importance there of local people being consulted and being able to influence the outcome of a decision. Given that, this is an important set of amendments and I look forward to the noble Earl’s response.

My Lords, I will make a few comments on my Amendment 126 before we hear the Minister’s response. I tabled this amendment because public consultation is something I feel very strongly about. I worked in consultation before I entered Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made some comments about standards of consultation, and it is incredibly important when we are talking about consultation that we know what we mean by that and that we are not just talking about stakeholder engagement, because they are very different things. I know that the Government do have minimum standards of consultation that they follow, so I wanted to make sure that that was properly on the record.

I want the results of the public consultation to be publicly available because consultation is not just about going out and talking to people. It is about listening to people and, having listened to them, it is about demonstrating the changes made in response to what the public have said during that consultation process. That is why, to me, this is critical. If you are to bring people on board with what you are trying to achieve, they need to genuinely believe that they have been part of the process in a constructive way. Even if you do not agree with them, it is important to explain why not and whether any further action has been taken.

Finally, I may have got this wrong, but I think the Minister said in his response to the previous debate that there were no further requirements around consultation because it is covered in Clause 46. I had a look at Clause 46 and it says:

“The Secretary of State must carry out a public consultation unless” and there are few examples. The final one is if

“the Secretary of State considers that no further consultation is necessary.”

Again, that would concern me unless it was clearly demonstrated and transparent why that was no longer required, because we have seen publicly what has been said and what further action has been taken or not taken and the reasons surrounding that. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that that is the approach the Government will be taking to consultation in this area.

My Lords, as we have heard, this group of amendments covers preconditions for establishing, and indeed disestablishing, a combined county authority. This process is locally led and it aligns with the process for a combined authority that we have seen successfully used in many areas to date.

Amendment 61, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, seeks to insert a requirement into Clause 7 that the Secretary of State can establish a combined county authority via regulations only if they deem there to be at least 60% support from local residents in the area to be covered by the CCA. In a similar vein, Amendment 127, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, seeks to insert a requirement into Clause 44 for there to be a referendum before the Secretary of State may make regulations to establish a combined county authority, and for this question to be approved by a Majority of local government electors.

We do want to ensure that the local public, in the broadest sense, are consulted on a proposal to establish a combined county authority in their area. This desire on the Government’s part is already captured by the requirement for a consultation provided for in Clause 43. Clause 43(4) states that, prior to submitting a proposal for a combined county authority to the Secretary of State, the local authorities proposing the establishment of a CCA must undertake a public consultation on the proposal in the area that the CCA will cover.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked, perfectly reasonably, what a proper consultation would look like. One important element is that it would have to cover the waterfront, as it were, in terms of stakeholders, to get a real sense of the strength of feeling and the climate of opinion in an area, and the extent to which an authority has taken the trouble to represent the scope of that opinion and feeling in the submission it makes. Once the consultation has happened, the authorities must submit a summary of consultation responses to the Secretary of State alongside their proposal.

When deciding whether to make the regulations to establish a combined county authority for an area, one of the tests the Secretary of State must consider is whether the area’s public consultation is sufficient. That is a judgment the Secretary of State must make in the light of the information presented, but if they conclude that it has not been sufficient, Clause 44 provides that the Secretary of State must undertake a public consultation before any regulations can be made.

I noted the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and will take advice on why that clause is worded as it is. I suggest to her that there is nothing sinister in it—it is the way that these legal provisions have to be drafted—but the net effect is as I have described, because what we wanted to introduce was a safety net, as it were, of a further Secretary of State-initiated consultation if that was deemed necessary. I hope the fact that we have done that demonstrates the importance which the Government attach to the consultation process.

We believe that the existing clauses provide for sufficient local consultation. I hope the way I have outlined the provisions and what we intend them to do in practice has persuaded the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that a referendum would be unreasonably burdensome. What we want, above all, is transparency of local opinion and that I hope we will get.

Many examples are flashing through my head, but I am thinking about one particular local government consultation that I saw, which happened to be around the city of Chester. The consultation asked, “Do you want to build on the green belt in areas A, B, C, D or E?”. Many local people pointed out to me that they wanted to say, “None of the above”, but there was no space in the box or provision to do that. So can the Minister reassure me that part of the Secretary of State’s examination of the summary of consultation responses will look at whether the consultation truly gave the space for local opinion to be expressed?

That is certainly the aim. I do not know whether the noble Baroness would agree with me that one of the downsides of referendums that we have seen in the past is that people are asked to take a binary decision. That very often does not allow for the nuances and subtleties of an issue to be presented in the question, to put it at its mildest. So we think the consultation model is more appropriate for this type of situation, particularly as the different constituent elements of a community will have different interests and viewpoints on the issue in question.

It is clear that, even barring a referendum, under Clause 44(3)(c) the Secretary of State will ask for further consultation if they consider that it is required. I assume that the Secretary of State will not have a subjective opinion on that and that there will be some objective criteria. It therefore comes back to what my noble friend Lord Shipley said: would it not be wise for the objective criteria about what good consultation is to be shared and, potentially, to be in the Bill? That would stop the position where local authorities had to rerun a consultation because it had not met the criteria which the Secretary of State was looking for in the first place.

Yes, I take the noble Lord’s point. It comes back to one that I think the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made about minimum standards in this area. It might be helpful if I took advice on this and wrote to noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, to see whether I can add some clarification.

Turning to Amendment 62, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, the levelling-up white paper clearly states the Government’s ambition for devolution, including the devolution framework, which is underpinned by four principles. One of these principles is sensible geography. The White Paper clearly states that future devolution deals should be agreed over a sensible, functional economic area and/or a whole-county geography, with a single institution in place across that geographic footprint. We have already debated that issue on the previous group. The combined county authority model is being established in the Bill to provide a single institution that can cover such functional economic areas, or whole-county geographies, where there is existing two-tier local government and multiple upper-tier councils. As such, I reassure the noble Baroness that combined county authorities will be focused on single economic hubs.

While I am on this point, I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, who asked whether mayors were mandatory for a devolution deal. The answer is no, a mayor will not be a prerequisite for a new devolution deal, but we do believe that a high-profile, directly elected leader will be most effective for levelling up. They will provide a single point of accountability for local citizens. The Bill will also allow mayors to use different titles, if they wish to, not simply “mayor”—but that is a detail.

Amendment 63, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, seeks to prevent the Secretary of State laying regulations to establish a combined county authority until they have laid a statement in both Houses, including plans for a duty of co-operation between the CCA and neighbouring areas. A fundamental principle of devolution, as I emphasised earlier, is that it should be locally led. It should be for the area itself to decide how it wishes to co-operate with its neighbours, not for central government to impose this.

The Bill contains methods to support inter-area co-operation, such as the non-constituent member provisions, which would allow a neighbouring council to have a voice in a combined county authority, should the CCA wish for this. We have also seen good co-operation between existing combined authorities and their neighbours, as I mentioned earlier: for example, joint working between the West Yorkshire combined authority and the City of York on transport shows that this does work in practice. I hope the noble Baroness agrees that devolution should be locally led.

Turning to Amendment 64, combined county authorities are based on the building blocks of local authority areas. As such, while there is sometimes coterminosity with police forces and NHS trusts, sometimes there is not. Where possible, we encourage coterminosity and, where the boundaries of a combined county authority and its policing are coterminous, the Government’s preference is for the mayor of a combined county authority to take on the police and crime commissioner functions. Examples of where this has already happened for combined authorities include Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire. Where there is no coterminosity with policing and health boundaries, there are other methods for ensuring collaboration, such as the Bill’s non-constituent and associate membership provisions, which would allow a member of an integrated care partnership or a police and crime commissioner to attend combined county authority meetings.

Amendment 65 proposes that all district councils in a combined county authority’s area would have to consent to its establishment. Only upper-tier local authorities—that is, two-tier county councils and unitary councils—can be constituent members of a combined county authority and only constituent members can consent to the establishment of a CCA. As district councils cannot be constituent members of a combined county authority, they cannot consent to its establishment. The amendment would prevent a CCA being established unless all district councils within the CCA’s area agreed to it. I suggest that this would give district councils a privileged position above all other bodies that are not constituent members, and would in practice be likely to prevent devolution to many areas where the Majority of councils are in favour. However, we agree that it is important for district councils to be able to have a say in the establishment of a combined county authority, and the Bill already provides for this.

As I mentioned a moment ago, Clause 43(4) states that, prior to submitting a proposal for a combined county authority to the Secretary of State, the local authorities proposing the establishment of a CCA must undertake a public consultation on the proposal in the area that the CCA will cover. As important local stakeholders, we would expect district councils to be involved and use this opportunity to have their say on the proposal. As stated in the levelling-up White Paper, we expect CCAs and their upper-tier local authorities to work closely with their district councils and have been pleased to see this happening in deal areas such as the east Midlands.

Amendment 101 seeks to ensure the public are consulted prior to the dissolution of a combined county authority. I support the noble Baroness’s desire for this, which is why there is already a requirement in the Bill for a public consultation on any proposals from the local area on changes to the area of a CCA or on the area being dissolved as part of a CCA being abolished. Where a combined county authority has been established and subsequently seeks to dissolve its area and abolish the CCA, Clause 24 enables the Secretary of state to make regulations for areas to achieve that.

The Secretary of State may make regulations dissolving the area of a CCA if the area consents, the Secretary of State agrees, and if Parliament approves the necessary secondary legislation. So there is, as it were, a “triple lock” on this process. In both scenarios, we fully recognise the crucial importance of residents in the local area having a say. That is why any CCA or local authority seeking to submit a proposal to the Secretary of State to dissolve it as part of the CCA being abolished has to carry out a public consultation as set out in Clause 45(3). This consultation must take place in the area covered by the CCA, which enables local residents, businesses and other interested parties, as I have mentioned, to have a strong input into any such proposals. A summary of consultation responses must then be submitted, in the same way as I described earlier, to the Secretary of State alongside the proposal.

Clause 46 provides the additional safeguard that I mentioned to ensure there is sufficient public consultation. This enables the Secretary of State to undertake a consultation prior to making any regulations to enact these changes, if they feel that there has been insufficient public involvement in the development of them.

I suggest that Amendment 102 is unnecessary because of the provisions in Clause 24. Clause 24 sets out the statutory requirements for the dissolution of a CCA’s area and subsequent abolition of the CCA. Any changes to the delivery of functions because of a combined county authority’s boundary being abolished must be given active consideration. Such changes to the delivery of functions will be set out in the regulations the Secretary of State will make to abolish a combined county authority, which require the consent of the local area and parliamentary approval, as I have described.

Parliamentary committees and this House will have a statement in an explanatory memorandum explaining any changes to the combined county authority’s area or conferral of powers, the views of the consultees and how these changes meet the statutory test of improving economic, social and environmental well-being. If there is a local wish to abolish a CCA to which functions have been devolved, it is possible that those functions will be discontinued in that area.

The clauses already include provisions that, when changing an area or abolishing a CCA, the regulations can transfer functions to another public authority if that is decided to be appropriate. For some areas, a public authority will continue to undertake some of the functions in the area. For some, it may be decided that the function is no longer to be exercised in the area. As such, Parliament will already have this information through the means that I have described. I hope the noble Baroness is reassured.

I turn to Amendment 126, tabled by noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock. I agree with the intention of this amendment, which is to ensure the findings on any public consultation to establish a combined county authority are made public by the area submitting the proposal. The Bill already makes provision for this. I remind the Committee again of Clause 43(4), which states that, prior to submitting a proposal for a combined county authority to the Secretary of State, the local authorities proposing the establishment of a CCA have to conduct a public consultation on the proposal. That will provide an opportunity for local residents and other stakeholders to have their say. A summary of consultation responses must be submitted alongside the proposal to the Secretary of State. The decision to submit this summary will be taken at council meetings, which are held publicly. As such, the summary of consultation results will be publicly available.

I hope that these rather lengthy explanatory comments are helpful and that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, will feel able to withdraw Amendment 61.

I am very grateful to the noble Earl for his detailed comments on the amendments. I would like to start with a few comments on the Amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. She mentioned that devolution deals were often done in smoke-filled rooms. I do not think that would have been the case in Manchester because they seem to have cracked the smoking cessation issue in Manchester, which is good to hear. But it is true that there has been an impression that these deals were cooked up behind closed doors. There has not always been a degree of consultation, which is why we have had such a significant discussion this afternoon around what consultation should take place on the setting up of a CCA, the dissolution of one or any boundary changes. The examples that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, gave on the effectiveness of public consultation and referendums in both Sheffield and Bristol illustrate that these things can be done very effectively, if adequate information is provided for the public to have a debate and discussion before they vote.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the opportunity for the Government to issue a statement on consultation, being clear about what the parameters need to be, what the Government’s powers are and what local people can expect to have a say on. That is a vital point.

We also had a lot of discussion under this group of amendments and the previous group on travel-to-work areas. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked whether each CCA is going to have a single economic hub. I do not think that question has been answered yet. We may have multiple hubs in county areas. I will use a local example, as it is the one I know best. In Hertfordshire there are multiple hubs. There are even two very distinct economic clusters: one in the pharmaceutical industry, which is thriving and doing extremely well in things like cell and gene therapy, and one in the creative industries. They are very distinct and different economic hubs within one area. We need to think about how that works in counties where there is not just a simple, single economic hub.

On Amendment 63, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about how previously on this Bill the Government have been clear more than one public authority may be included in the CCA. Non-constituent members have been talked about a lot. If there is more than one public authority in an area—for example, a local enterprise partnership, the National Health Service or a PCC—it can be very confusing when they do not have coterminous boundaries about who is responsible for delivering within that CCA. It is important that we get further clarification on that as the Bill develops and goes forward.

My noble friend Lady Hayman spoke about standards of consultation and the fact that the consultation should be publicly available. Added to our other discussions on consultation, these are important points. I am grateful to the noble Earl for saying that he would come back to us on that strange subsection in Clause 46 that talks about the Secretary of State having the power to say that they do not think that any further consultation is necessary. That will require further clarification.

The standard of consultation is important. One example I had was a consultation on the withdrawal of some bus services, to which there were 13,000 responses that said, “We don’t want to lose these bus services”, but the services were withdrawn anyway because there was no funding to take them forward. That is not consultation: if you have no intention of taking something forward or of changing your opinion on what you will do, having 13,000 responses that say the opposite is very frustrating for the people consulted. We have to be careful about consultation in that respect.

I turn to the noble Earl’s direct responses to the amendments. The 60% support issue was putting a figure out there to ask whether there would be a specific requirement of a percentage—a barrier we would need to cross—before we could accept that that was a clear public response. But the figure is not the important point here: the point is about what proper consultation is.

I am reassured by the noble Earl’s comments, but we must ensure that public consultation is sufficient. If it will fall to the Secretary of State to undertake this consultation, if it is not sufficient, it would be far better if the criteria and parameters for the consultation were set out clearly beforehand, so that we did not end up with public consultations in numerous areas going to the Secretary of State, who would say, “That’s not sufficient”, and we would end up redoing the consultation. I would be much happier if we were very clear about what the criteria of the consultation would be before we set out.

I covered the issue of the single economic hub in previous comments. The fundamental principle that the noble Earl referred to about the duty of co-operation being locally led is right, but I still find the provisions around non-constituent members of CCAs confusing for two-tier areas and for county areas where single economic hubs may be operated across a number of different areas. As we work through the Bill, further clarification on how that duty of co-operation might look would be helpful.

There has been a long-standing issue around the coterminosity of boundaries. I know that they are decided by different government departments for their own reasons, but it is very difficult to make this work. I am fortunate that, in Hertfordshire, our PCC boundary is coterminous with the county, but the health boundaries are not, which has made it consistently difficult to work across those boundaries.

On district councils’ engagement, I fundamentally disagree with the fact that district councils are one of a number of stakeholders in an area. The difference between district councils and even other public bodies is that district councils are made up of groups of people who are democratically elected. So they are not important local stakeholders but democratically elected bodies—the same as a county council. So we are saying that the democratic elections held by unitaries and counties give them more of a say—if that were the case, it is sheerly a case of numbers, because the democratic principle is the same. So we have to be very careful about putting district councils in as stakeholders, whereas counties and unitaries are the decision-makers here; that is the fundamental principle of this.

The noble Earl spoke about a triple lock on consultation—I listened to that and understand that the provisions are there. So, provided we have clarification on the wording in Clause 46, we can consider that there is enough in the Bill to refer to consultation on setting up or dissolving a CCA. But we need to clarify the issues around whether, if a boundary is changed or something is fundamentally changed about the CCA area, we need to have another look at what the consultation on that is.

On the intention of Amendment 126, an awful lot hangs on Clause 43. That is fine, but we need to make sure that the level of public transparency on the consultation that is set out in Clause 43 is adequate and will meet any test of public accountability. That said, I am very grateful for a good debate and to all noble Lords who participated. I withdraw Amendment 61.

Amendment 61 withdrawn.

Amendments 62 to 65 not moved.

Clause 7 agreed.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.21 pm.