I will not keep noble Lords too long on this Amendment. There are a couple of points I wish to make and a couple of questions to ask. I say at the outset that Amendment 119 is a probing amendment, obviously, but it allows us to discuss reform, or not, of the Official Secrets Act 1989. As we know, this National Security Bill does not deal with that, but earlier Official Secrets Acts of 1911, 1920 and 1939, which deal with espionage. In that sense, this Bill represents a missed opportunity and leaves many unanswered questions which simply cannot be ignored, questions which Amendment 120 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, setting up an office of the national security whistleblower, also seeks to address.

In the Government’s consultation document for the state threats legislation reforms, it is clear that changes to the Official Secrets Act 1989 appear to be on their way. Is it correct that they will reform the Official Secrets Act 1989 as soon as possible? If they will, can the Minister give any indication of what “as soon as possible” might mean—other than “as soon as possible”?

The former Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland MP, highlighted the two main issues arising from this National Security Bill regarding future reform of the Official Secrets Act 1989. The first is the possible creation of a public interest defence, rather than leaving it up to juries; the second is to raise a statutory commission to allow people to raise their concerns, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, seeks to propose through her Amendment 120 and as was supported by the Law Commission.

I can appreciate the concerns of the security services. No one wishes to undermine them and we have had many good debates on the public interest defence, but the current situation is not satisfactory. Someone who sees wrongdoing either commits a criminal offence, keeps quiet or speaks to superiors, hoping that it will be taken seriously—in some circumstances, I am sure that it is. The Government are worried about this area; as we said earlier, and as the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, helpfully confirmed, they are looking at strengthening the guidelines to various government departments on how to deal with individuals who feel themselves to be in that situation. An independent office to which you could complain may be the answer; if it is not, the Government need to be clear about how they think we can take this problem forward.

There have been many examples in the past of individuals doing a public service by highlighting various issues which, had it not been for them, could not have been brought to public attention. These have been in security and many other areas of public life, including our Parliament. Would the murders that occurred between 2001 and 2004, highlighted by the ISC in its 2018 report—the Law Commission also makes this point —have been exposed with a better system that people felt confident in at the time? If the Government oppose these amendments, can they outline their policy?

My final point was raised by the Constitution Committee. Can the Minister explain why there is such a significant difference between the maximum sentences proposed for offences created by this Bill and those in the Official Secrets Act 1989, which will remain in force when the Bill is enacted? As the Constitution Committee report says, this may lead to different sentences being available for offences applied to the same conduct, depending on which Act is used with respect to a particular individual. That will give rise to legal uncertainty. Can the Minister explain why there are different sentences, including life imprisonment, in this Bill, soon to be an Act, and the Official Secrets Act? Does the Minister agree that this is yet another reason to bring forward reform of the Official Secrets Act 1989? The Government need to get on with reforming that Act. They seem to have said that they will do it; it would be helpful if they categorically confirmed to the Committee that that is their intention.