Baroness Jones of Whitchurch:

Moved by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

111: Clause 28, page 19, line 10, at end insert—“( ) For the purposes of making provision relating to subsection (2)(a), a charging scheme must take account of the public interest in ensuring that chargeable persons do not—(a) make financial gain, or(b) gain competitive advantage,as a result of their unauthorised catches of sea fish.”Member’s explanatory statementThis Amendment would require charging schemes, when calculating penalties for unauthorised fishing, to consider the public interest in ensuring that unauthorised fishing does not result in a fisher enjoying a financial gain or competitive advantage.

My Lords, this is a fairly straightforward Amendment addressing the issue of the discards ban, which we have debated thoroughly in the past. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for signing the amendment, given his committee’s impressive and forensic work on this very issue. I hope for a constructive reply from the Minister because the need to strengthen measures relating to discards is one issue where there has long been cross-party consensus.

We have moved quite quickly away from the original intent of the discard ban, which was to put virtually no value on the unauthorised fish caught and landed, to what is now proposed, which enables a charge to be paid so the fish can still be sold at market. But it is vital that these new charges do not incentivise wrong behaviours. We welcome that there are provisions in the Bill for penalties to be imposed as a result of unauthorised catches, and hope that these powers will be used in a sensible and proportionate manner. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that authorities, particularly in the first stages, will consider issuing warnings before imposing fines as the new scheme is bedded in. On the other hand, I hope that he will also be able to confirm that authorities will be able to ramp up fines in the case of repeated offences, where it is clear that a more deliberate illegality is taking place.

In the meantime, our amendment is primarily for probing purposes in order to better understand the proposed system. But it was also tabled out of a genuine concern that, if the penalty system is not designed properly, charges may be considered as a price worth paying in order to get around the discard rules. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reassurance on this issue and I beg to move the amendment.

My Lords, I very much support the Amendment. I admit that there is, perhaps uncharacteristically, a smidgen of innovation in this part of the Bill. The noble Baroness is absolutely right, and I will listen to the Minister’s reply very carefully because, as we know from Northern Ireland and “cash for ash”, these schemes can have unintended consequences. While, as always, I commend the Government on being determined to keep the discard ban active and well managed, we need to understand how this will operate practically and make sure that those unintended consequences do not arise.

My Lords, I seek clarification as I raised a number of points earlier in the Bill relating to this issue. The Amendment is useful in that regard to tweak information out of my noble friend. I wondered what the background was to the move away from eliminating discards to this discard prevention charging scheme. Is it from the model developed in New Zealand, and are the Government satisfied that that model is working better now than when there were initial teething problems?

I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify, but I understand that this provision is not deemed to apply in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Has he had any discussions with the devolved Administrations to see if they are proposing to go down this path at a future stage? I understand that the Scottish Government may bring forward their own Scottish fisheries Bill in this regard; I simply do not know the answer to that.

In Clause 28, how does my noble friend imagine the discard prevention charges being monitored? The way that subsection (4)(a) and (b) is drafted could indicate that this is a voluntary scheme. Are the Government minded to link the scheme to the REM that we discussed earlier, and would that involve cameras on boats as well as other equipment?

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her proposed Amendment, and as I have made clear in Committee and at Second Reading, the United Kingdom remains fully committed to ending the extremely wasteful practice of discarding. Now that we are an independent coastal state, the UK can develop a new discards policy that is best suited to our marine environment and our fishing industry. It is important that this new policy reflects the complexity of UK fisheries, including our mixed fisheries, where we have many different stocks in the same area, which can make it difficult to avoid unwanted bycatch completely.

In mixed fisheries, when the quota for bycatch stocks is exhausted, fishers are effectively unable to go fishing for their target species. This is because they cannot lawfully catch and land bycatch stocks without quota, but at the same time cannot avoid the bycatch stock when trying to fish their target species. This problem, termed choke, can lead to whole fisheries being closed. This has serious economic consequences for those fishers and coastal communities who rely on those fisheries. That is why we need a pragmatic balance between ensuring that bycatch is minimised—and where possible eliminated—and enabling fishers to continue to fish where appropriate.

Clause 32, which provides for a discard prevention charging scheme, is intended to provide that balance. It will give vessels the option to pay a charge to land catch in excess of their quota, but will be priced in such a way that it would be more cost effective for those fishers to adopt more sustainable practices and avoidance measures to reduce unwanted and unintentional bycatch. This will be just one of the tools we will have available, to reduce discards and support fishers to move to more sustainable practice, including appropriate monitoring.

The noble Baroness is right that we must not in any way incentivise those who use the proposed scheme, and we do not intend to. Previously, fishers have regularly discarded fish when they have an unauthorised catch. The landing obligation requires that all catches of species which are subject to catch limits are landed—subject to limited exemptions—and not discarded. This is a challenge given our mixed fisheries, so this scheme will be a support mechanism to ensure that fishing can continue in the short term while encouraging fishers to adapt to more sustainable practices. It is a fine balance, I agree, and one we are seeking to undertake.

Clauses 28 to 32 provide the parameters to help set the charge at the right level. The details of this are still being developed. While we were in the EU, we were not in a position to introduce such a scheme because common fisheries policy regulations would have penalised member states for fishing in excess of quotas. Now we have left the EU, we will look to other countries which successfully run similar charging schemes, including Norway, where discards were successfully banned in 1987. Such a scheme would provide a new, alternative option for our fishers, and be important for our mixed fisheries. We will consult with industry and other interested parties and undertake economic modelling to determine the appropriate charge level as we develop the details of the scheme.

This would be a voluntary scheme that fishers choose to enter in order to remain compliant. Participation in the scheme would be agreed prior to any use of the charge occuring. Unlike a fine, which penalises illegal activity, the DPC is intended to enable compliance. Once a DPC scheme is running, the existing arrangements for prosecuting overfishing and issuing fines will remain.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh rightly asked about the devolved Administrations. They are also looking to address the issue of discards in ways appropriate to their fleets, and we are working closely with them. The Scottish Government, as a part of their future fisheries management strategy, is working in partnership with key stakeholders to address the current issues with the discard ban and to develop a future catching policy suitable to the needs of the Scottish fleet. These approaches will be tailored to the differing needs of the various fleet segments within Scotland to avoid applying a one-size-fits-all approach to a very diverse fleet which ranges from very large pelagic vessels over 70 metres in length to under-10-metre vessels. Although they are not currently considering the introduction of a discard prevention charge, they are evaluating the use of additional quota to address choke issues and incentivise best fishing practice.

The Welsh Government will determine their approach to deliver the bycatch objective as the joint fisheries statement is developed. They will consider proposals for a discard prevention charge scheme alongside other approaches which may be more appropriate for their largely inshore fleet. We are also working closely with Northern Ireland as it develops policies in this area appropriate for its fleet.

This clause is designed to give England the best opportunity to have a successful discard policy tailored to our fisheries. The Government are fully committed to ensuring that the scheme does not unintentionally have perverse incentives. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, highlighted the importance of ensuring that we do not get unintended consequences. That is why we continue to work up the details of this scheme with interested parties.

I say in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that not only are we working collaboratively within England to bring forward the scheme but, as I said, we are working closely with the devolved Administrations. Following this debate, I will make sure that noble Lords’ remarks are passed on to those working on the scheme. As I said, I absolutely endorse the points that all noble Lords have made in this short debate—we are on the same page—and I want the chance to take back what has been said because, candidly, this is work in progress. Our bona fides on this are strong. We want to put the best discard prevention charging scheme in place and this debate will have been very helpful. I reassure noble Lords that this matter is taken extremely seriously. It is one of the tools that I hope we will be able to deploy on the whole issue of discard and bycatch. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful response. We are all looking for the best way to stop wasteful discards. As he will know, that has been campaigned for over many years. We were very pleased when the discard ban was introduced because it felt as though it was finally beginning to address the issue. If we now move away from it, we need to be assured that anything that runs in parallel has equal advantages.

I suppose that I had not quite understood that the scheme would be voluntary, so I assume that it is all still underpinned by the current discard ban and the charging scheme will work only in certain areas and certain fisheries.

Perhaps I may make an obvious point. It is generally understood that discarding is continuing as it always has done and that there is very little change in fishers’ activity in that regard. Therefore, bringing in a charge will be a greater incentive to them to carry on as they are at the moment. I welcome this initiative but for the scheme to be successful there has to be remote electronic monitoring or whatever on the vessels so that fishers cannot discard at sea. The scheme will work only if that is done; otherwise, it will be an additional incentive to discard.

That reminds me of a point that my noble friend Lady McIntosh raised. We have had a discussion about the requirements—not only REM but all the ways in which we need to work. We absolutely need to work with industry but we also need to say to it, “It is in your vital interests to work on this area because, in the end, if there aren’t sustainable stocks, there isn’t a sustainable industry”. They are so intertwined. I repeat that, once a scheme is up and running, the existing arrangements for prosecution of overfishing and the issuing of fines remain. This is an add-on, a further tool. There are other countries where it has worked well; this is an opportunity and work is in hand. We want to get the best scheme. It is important that we look internationally to see where it has worked and where it has not so that, when we deploy this, it hits the right target.

Again, that is very helpful. I agree absolutely with the Minister that it is a good idea to look at what is working well internationally. If there are schemes that work well, we should certainly try to learn from them. It is a good idea also to take this slowly and at an appropriate pace with respect to the consultation. Having introduced one scheme, the last thing we want is for people to be confused about the legal underpinnings and their obligations. So, taking it in stages is a good idea. I accept that this is work in progress. It would be great to be updated at some point about how that consultation is going. It is a very delicate balance to set the charges to a level which bring about the right behaviours. They will need to be very nimble because what works in one sector or quarter might not work the same way in another. I do not envy the people who are trying to set those rates so that they incentivise the right behaviours.

I thank the Minister. It has been helpful to get these issues out on the table. Of course, I echo the points made about REM by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. That is an issue that we have rehearsed before and will rehearse again. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment 111 withdrawn.

Clause 28 agreed.

Clauses 29 to 32 agreed.

Amendment 112 not moved.

Clause 33: Financial assistance: powers of Secretary of State