My Lords, I am pleased that my noble friend Lord Paddick has moved this Motion. I should declare an interest: I am a trustee of the organisation Safer London, which works to prevent and address young people’s involvement in crime, including running a gang exit programme for the Metropolitan Police and now MOPAC. In that role, I recently undertook some quite basic safeguarding training; safeguarding is of course very relevant to this issue. It seems to me that the thinking about safeguarding has developed; I wonder whether the thinking about the use of young people in the role of covert human intelligence sources has developed in tandem.

I asked somebody who I know through Safer London about this issue, and I was given the following example, which I think well illustrates the concerns that have been expressed. A young woman of 17, who was described to me as “on the edge of care”, whose parents were separated and who had been between boroughs, was exploited by a man who—this is very common—she thought of as her boyfriend. He was selling a group of girls, including her, for sex. The police were looking for information on him and she was left in her situation so that she could provide information. In other words, she was exploited by him and continued to be exploited by him, and was, arguably, exploited by the police. Eventually, she witnessed a murder. She was drawn into it, and not just as a witness, as she was asked to dispose of clothes and other items afterwards. How was her consent to this tested? No significant adult in her life knew of her involvement, and we must ask ourselves what qualifies a police officer to make the assessment that is needed here. This is obviously a question of training, but the officer making the assessment must also be independent from the particular investigation. I, for one—and this is nothing other than common sense—find it hard to believe that officers can easily put aside their loyalties to police colleagues in the investigation for which they have responsibility.

What is the position of corporate parents of a child in care? So many young people who are caught up in crime are, or have been, in care, or have low-level learning difficulties. Crucially, what support is given after the event? This is no doubt one of those muddy situations: a perpetrator may also be a victim, or a victim may be a perpetrator. I am told that it is not that uncommon for the police to offer witness protection in exchange for assistance—or, at least, they are very often asked to do this. As I say, it is quite a muddy situation.

My noble friend’s Motion regrets the lack of consultation with organisations concerned with human rights and the welfare of children. I suspect all of them would have raised similar points, and probably made the point that 16 year-olds are often not very mature, and indeed, neither are 18 year-olds. I do not know where vulnerability stops. To indicate how vulnerable young people might feel, I gather that it is not unusual for someone who was a gang member and is in a young offender institution to request segregation—solitary, in other words—because of fear of other gang members in the same institution.

The JCHR, of which I am a member, raised a number of issues with the Home Office, and my noble friend has referred to them. I was startled to discover in a response from the Security Minister that there were no national statistics about the use of juvenile CHISs, although I gather that there will be from now on. A central issue, of course, was the welfare of the child. We are told that this is kept “in mind”—I quote those words from the Security Minister—in considering changes to the 2000 order, and that this is paramount, which of course it is ethically and legally. The Security Minister’s letter uses the term “proportionate”. I accept that that was in a particular context but how does one reconcile proportionality with paramountcy?

The Minister referred to research and I looked online to see whether I could find it. It seems not to be openly available, although I found an abstract which mentions “institutional nervousness”, suggesting an aversion to the risks associated with the use of juveniles which the author of the research writes might not always be justified. He then goes on to say:

“The study also illustrated the challenges that the police face in properly assessing risks (particularly the competence of officers to assess the psychological and moral risks that are always associated with the use of CHIS)”,

and crucially it argues for further research.

I am prepared to acknowledge that there is a place for some use of juveniles. The police go into schools to recruit underage children to buy from off-licences. I am slightly queasy about that but the person who told me about the young woman I mentioned said that she was happy enough for her son to be involved in this. However, that is very different from the situations that many of us are worried about. I will simply say that answering the question of the paramountcy of the welfare of the child by,

“noting in particular the potential for positive life outcomes for young people who engage with policing in this way”,

seems to be pushing the point much too far.

My noble friend was right to bring this matter to the House and I support the Motion.