European Union (Withdrawal) Bill - Report (5th Day)

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 7:30 pm on 2 May 2018.

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Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Liberal Democrat 7:30, 2 May 2018

My Lords, I will return to the points on the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, but first I endorse what has been said by everyone who has contributed to this debate so far—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope—in expressing gratitude, if that is the right word, to those who have laboured hard to try to move forward and get an agreement on the kind of structure we need for when EU law is, as it were, repatriated. I think there is common ground that the original Clause 11 proposals were not fit for purpose; that has been said on many occasions, and I will not rehearse all the arguments for that now. It is to the credit of the Government that they recognise that and have sought to address it —unfortunately, some valuable time was lost, but nevertheless they have done that in a constructive way. Indeed, I am grateful to both Mark Drakeford of the Welsh Government and Mike Russell of the Scottish Government for their efforts. What has been brought before us represents a considerable advance with much better arrangements for dealing with retained EU law after exit day. It is regrettable that the Scottish Government did not feel able to sign up, notwithstanding the considerable advances that had been made. One or two people have speculated that, if one is not satisfied with what the Government are doing, there may be an argument for voting it down. I pointed out that if you did that, we would be left with Clause 11, which no one seems to think we should give any house room to any longer. However, the progress made is welcome.

I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said when he moved his amendment. I have been trying to work through it, because something about it was not quite right. It may be just my approach. He quite rightly drew attention to the fact that the “type A” Order in Council procedure is deployed when changes are to be made in the competence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers, and specifically where there is a change to Schedule 5, which defines what is reserved, and to the restrictions which are currently set out in Schedule 4. Where I possibly have a difficulty is that of course these are not the only two restrictions; the noble and learned Lord himself pointed out that EU law, and for that matter the European Convention on Human Rights, is another restriction, as indeed is territoriality. As he acknowledged, we are dealing with a situation that was never foreseen when the Scotland Act was being drafted and taken through both Houses back in 1998, and that is a situation where, potentially, the restriction on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament —namely, that it must abide by European Union law —will fly off, and we will be in what might be described as a sui generis situation. The question is whether the procedure which is for modification of Schedule 4 or 5 is appropriate for this one-off situation.

I would like to tease out the following. Is my understanding correct that, if the Order in Council procedure proposed in the amendment that has just been moved was to apply, that could mean that in an effort to establish a United Kingdom framework—in 24 areas, plus perhaps two in the margins where there is still some dispute, where it is generally agreed that there should be a common UK framework—it might be possible for the Scottish Parliament to derail, as it were, the establishment of a common framework, which would affect Wales, Northern Ireland and England? It was not part of the original devolution settlement that changes in relation to the competence of the Scottish Parliament should be able to amount to a veto on what might happen in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

It is important in this unique situation, where European Union law is being repatriated, that we remember that there are two aspects to it. It is important that the devolution settlement is respected; my understanding of what the Government propose is that, with the exception of those where they seek a common framework, powers will automatically flow back to Cardiff, to Belfast, I hope, and to Edinburgh, where they would fall under areas which are not otherwise reserved.