Third Reading

Part of Deregulation Bill – in the House of Lords at 8:15 pm on 4th March 2015.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Shadow Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Opposition Whip (Lords), Shadow Spokesperson (Cabinet Office) 8:15 pm, 4th March 2015

I thank the Minister for a very thoughtful response, and for all the work and meetings that have clearly taken place. I particularly welcome the fact, if I have his words right, that the Government do not propose to bring the PSA into scope.

Turning to the HFEA, funnily enough I agree with virtually everything that the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, says, except that I do not agree that it is against the amendment in front of us. I think that he is arguing for better regulation and for not putting unnecessary burdens on those being regulated, be they hospitals or laboratories. All the talk about better regulation, not having undue costs and not throwing away bottles after 24 hours is, to me, better regulation and not the same as the growth duty. I think that we are not very far away from that.

I welcome very much the recognition by the Minister that the HFEA is not an economic regulator, his words that it will not be required to drive or pursue economic growth, his willingness to continue this discussion and to use new guidance to try to help avoid the risk of challenge, and his words that the HFEA will decide for itself not to afford that duty in certain cases. We are probably fairly close on this, and the discussions and the new guidance will be helpful. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 28 withdrawn.

Clause 109: Extent

Amendments 29 and 30

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

29: Clause 109, page 84, line 28, leave out “Paragraph 39 of Schedule 21 extends” and insert “Paragraphs 4, 31(b) and (c), 32(2), 32(4) so far as relating to paragraphs 9 and 68 of Schedule 13 to the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, 32(5) and (6) and 39 of Schedule 21 extend”

30: Clause 109, page 84, line 30, after “paragraphs” insert “5,”

Amendments 29 and 30 agreed.

Clause 110: Commencement

Amendments 31 to 35

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

31: Clause 110, page 85, line 3, leave out paragraph (c)

32: Clause 110, page 85, line 45, at end insert—

“(5A) The following provisions come into force on such day as the Lord Chancellor may by order made by statutory instrument appoint—

(a) sections (CLC practitioner services bodies) and (Licensed CLC practitioners);

(b) section (CLC practitioner services: consequential amendments) and Schedule (CLC practitioner services: consequential amendments);

(c) section (The Council for Licensed Conveyancers: other amendments) and Schedule (The Council for Licensed Conveyancers: other amendments).”

33: Clause 110, page 86, line 1, after “(5)” insert “and (5A)”

34: Clause 110, page 86, line 12, at end insert—

“(8A) The Lord Chancellor may by order made by statutory instrument make such transitional, transitory or saving provision as the Lord Chancellor considers appropriate in connection with the coming into force of sections (CLC practitioner services bodies) to (The Council for Licensed Conveyancers: other amendments) and Schedules (CLC practitioner services: consequential amendments) and (The Council for Licensed Conveyancers: other amendments).”

35: Clause 110, page 86, line 13, after “(8)” insert “and (8A)”

Amendments 31 to 35 agreed.

Schedule 12: Household waste: London

Amendment 36 not moved.

Schedule 13: Other measures relating to animals, food and the environment

Amendments 37 to 40

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

37: Schedule 13, page 183, line 41, leave out “subsections (2) and (3)” and insert “subsection (2)”

38: Schedule 13, page 183, line 41, at end insert—

“in subsection (2B), omit paragraph (a);

“in subsection (3), omit “(ba),”;”

39: Schedule 13, page 185, line 39, leave out sub-paragraph (29) and insert—

“(29) If paragraph 4 comes into force before the coming into force of the repeal of the Audit Commission Act 1998 by section 1(2) of the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014, Schedule 2 to the Act of 1998 is to have effect (until the repeal comes into force) as if in paragraph 1, paragraph (ma) were omitted.

40: Schedule 13, page 186, line 14, at end insert—

“( ) In the Energy Act 2013, in Part 3 of Schedule 9, in the definition of “local authority” in paragraph 14(3), omit paragraph (b).

“( ) In the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014, in Schedule 2, omit paragraph 25.”

Amendments 37 to 40 agreed.

Amendments 41 and 42

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

41: After Schedule 18, insert the following new Schedule—

“CLC practitioner services: consequential amendmentsAdministration of Justice Act 1985 (c. 61)

1 The Administration of Justice Act 1985 is amended as follows.

2 (1) In section 16 (conditional licences), subsection (1) is amended as follows.

(2) For paragraph (b) substitute—

“(b) when conditions under this section have been imposed on a licence under this Part previously issued to him;

(ba) when conditions under paragraph 5 of Schedule 8 to the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 have been imposed on a licence under section 53 of that Act previously issued to him;”.

(3) In paragraph (c), after “Part” insert “or a licence in force under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990”.

(4) In paragraph (ca), after “24A” insert “(including that section as applied by section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990)”.

(5) In paragraph (d), after “26” insert “(including that section as applied by section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990)”.

(6) In paragraph (ea), after “22” insert “(including that section as applied by section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990)”.

3 (1) Section 26 (proceedings in disciplinary cases) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (2)—

(a) in paragraph (a), after “licence” insert “under this Part”;

(b) in paragraph (b), for “a licence under this Part” substitute “any relevant licence”;

(c) in paragraph (c), after “licence” insert “under this Part”.

(3) After subsection (8) insert—

“(9) In this section “relevant licence” means—

(a) a licence under this Part, or

(b) a licence under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990.”

4 (1) Section 28 (revocation of licence on grounds of fraud or error) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1)—

(a) after “a licence” insert “under this Part”;

(b) for “the licence” substitute “all of the relevant licences held by that person”.

(3) For subsection (2) substitute—

“(2) Where a person has had any relevant licence which was held by him revoked because of fraud on that person’s part, the person may not be issued with a licence under this Part except on the advice of the Committee given to the Council as the result of an application made by the person to the Committee.”

(4) In subsection (3), for “a licence under this Part” substitute “any relevant licence”.

(5) After subsection (6) insert—

“(7) In this section “relevant licence” has the meaning given by section 26.”

5 (1) Section 33A (administration of oaths by licensed conveyancers) is amended as follows.

(2) In the heading, after “conveyancers” insert “or licensed CLC practitioners”.

(3) In the section, after “conveyancers” insert “or licensed CLC practitioners”.

6 (1) Section 34 (modification of existing enactments relating to conveyancing etc) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (2), after “a recognised body” insert “which is a conveyancing services body”.

(3) In subsection (2), after “conveyancer or” (in the second place it occurs) insert “such a”.

(4) In subsection (3), after “body” insert “which is a conveyancing services body”.

(5) After subsection (3) insert—

“(4) In this section “conveyancing services body” has the meaning given by section 32A.”

7 In section 39 (interpretation of Part 2), in subsection (1), at the appropriate place insert—

““licensed CLC practitioner” means a person, other than a licensed conveyancer, who holds a licence under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990;”.

8 In Schedule 3 (the Council for Licensed Conveyancers: supplementary provisions), in paragraph 2 (constitution of the Council), in sub-paragraph (1)(a)—

(a) omit the “or” at the end of sub-paragraph (i);

(b) after sub-paragraph (i) insert—

“(ia) licensed CLC practitioners; or”.

9 (1) Schedule 6 (bodies recognised under section 32: supplementary provisions) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 3 (preliminary investigation by the Investigating Committee etc)—

(a) omit the “or” at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(a)(ii);

(b) after sub-paragraph (1)(aa) insert—

“(aaa) it is alleged that a manager or employee of a recognised body who is not a licensed CLC practitioner has failed to comply with any rules applicable to him by virtue of section 32; or”.

(3) In paragraph 3A (orders made by the Investigating Committee), in sub-paragraph (1)(b)—

(a) after “3(1)(aa)” insert “or (aaa)”;

(b) for “that paragraph” substitute “paragraph 3(1)(aa) or (aaa) (as the case may be)”.

(4) In paragraph 4 (orders made by the Discipline and Appeals Committee), in sub-paragraph (2A)—

(a) after “3(1)(aa)” insert “or (aaa)”;

(b) for “sub-paragraph (ii) of that paragraph” substitute “paragraph 3(1)(aa) or (aaa) (as the case may be)”.

(5) In paragraph 14 (examination of files), in sub-paragraph (1), after “(aa)” insert “, (aaa)”.

Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 (c. 41)

10 The Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 is amended as follows.

11 In section 75 (judges etc barred from legal practice), in paragraph (c), for “or licensed conveyancer” substitute “, licensed conveyancer or licensed CLC practitioner”.

12 In section 119 (interpretation), in subsection (1), at the appropriate place insert—

““licensed CLC practitioner” has the meaning given in section 53;”.

13 (1) Schedule 8 (licensed conveyancers) is amended as follows.

(2) In the heading, after “conveyancers” insert “and licensed CLC practitioners”.

(3) In paragraph 1 (general)—

(a) for the definition of “advocacy licence” substitute—

““advocacy licence”, “litigation licence” and “probate licence” have the meaning given by section 53;”;

(b) omit the definitions of—

(i) “litigation licence”, and

(ii) “probate licence”.

(4) In paragraph 4 (issue of licences), in sub-paragraph (3), for the words from “with respect” to “as they” substitute “with respect to—

(a) any application under paragraph 3 for an advocacy licence and any advocacy licence in force under section 53;

(b) any application under paragraph 3 for a litigation licence and any litigation licence in force under section 53; and

(c) any application under paragraph 3 for a probate licence and any probate licence in force under section 53 (as the case may be), as they”.

(5) In paragraph 5 (conditional licences)—

(a) for sub-paragraph (1)(b) substitute—

“(b) when conditions under this paragraph have been imposed on an advocacy, litigation or probate licence previously issued to him;

(ba) when conditions under section 16 of the Act of 1985 have been imposed on a licence under Part 2 of the Act of 1985 previously issued to him;”;

(b) in sub-paragraph (1)(c), for “a licence of that kind” substitute “an advocacy, litigation or probate licence or a licence under Part 2 of the Act of 1985”;

(c) in sub-paragraph (1)(d)—

(i) after “1985” insert “(including section 24A(1) as applied by section 53)”;

(ii) after “that Act” insert “(including section 26(1) as applied by section 53)”;

(d) in sub-paragraph (6), omit the “or” after paragraph (a);

(e) in sub-paragraph (6)(b), at the beginning insert “in the case of an applicant who is a licensed conveyancer,”;

(f) after sub-paragraph (6)(b) insert “; or

(c) for requiring the applicant to take any specified steps that will, in the opinion of the Council, be conducive to his carrying on an efficient practice as a licensed CLC practitioner,”;

(g) in sub-paragraph (6), after “paragraph (b)” insert “or (c)”.

(6) After paragraph 6 insert—

“Register of licensed CLC practitioners

6A (1) The Council must establish and maintain, in such form as the Council may determine, a register containing the names and places of business of all persons who for the time being hold an advocacy, litigation or probate licence and are not licensed conveyancers.

(2) The Council may make rules specifying the further information, including information about disciplinary measures taken, to be recorded in the register in relation to a person.

(3) The Council must cause the appropriate entries and deletions to be made in the register on the issue and termination of advocacy, litigation and probate licences; and where any licence held by a person is for the time being suspended by virtue of any provision of Part 2 of the Act of 1985 as applied by this Act the Council must cause that fact to be noted in the register against that person’s name.

(4) Any change in a licensed CLC practitioner’s place or places of business must be notified by that person to the Council within the period of fourteen days beginning with the date on which the change takes effect.

(5) The Council must provide facilities for making the information contained in the entries in the register available for inspection in visible and legible form by any person during office hours and without payment.

(6) A certificate signed by an officer of the Council appointed for the purpose and stating—

(a) that any person does or does not, or did or did not at any time, hold an advocacy, litigation or probate licence, or

(b) that any licence held by any person is or was at any time either free of conditions or subject to any particular conditions, is, unless the contrary is proved, evidence of the facts stated in the certificate; and a certificate purporting to be so signed is to be taken to have been so signed unless the contrary is proved.”

(7) For paragraph 8 and the cross-heading preceding it substitute—

“Effect of suspension or revocation

8 Where a relevant licence ceases to be in force because of—

(a) a direction under section 24(5) of the Act of 1985, or

(b) an order under section 26(2)(a) or (c) of the Act of 1985, any other relevant licence in force with respect to that person at the time shall cease to have effect to the same extent as the licence in question.”

(8) Omit paragraph 9 (removal of disqualification from holding an advocacy, litigation or probate licence).

(9) Omit paragraph 10 (revocation on grounds of error or fraud).

(10) In paragraph 21 (power to examine files)—

(a) in sub-paragraph (1)(a), after “conveyancer” insert “or licensed CLC practitioner”;

(b) in sub-paragraph (1), for “the licensed conveyancer” (in both places where it occurs) substitute “the person complained of”.

(11) In paragraph 22 (interest on clients’ money), after “conveyancer” insert “or licensed CLC practitioner”.

Legal Services Act 2007 (c. 29)

14 The Legal Services Act 2007 is amended as follows.

15 (1) Section 104 (prevention of regulatory conflict: accounts rules) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (2), after “conveyancer” insert “or licensed CLC practitioner”.

(3) After subsection (2) insert—

“(3) In this section “licensed CLC practitioner” means a person, other than a licensed conveyancer, who holds a licence under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990.”

16 (1) In Schedule 5 (authorised persons), paragraph 11 (rights during transitional period: licensed conveyancers) is amended as follows.

(2) After sub-paragraph (1) insert—

“(1A) During the transitional period every individual, not being a licensed conveyancer, who holds a licence under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 is deemed to be authorised by the Council to administer oaths.”

(3) In sub-paragraph (2), after “(1)” insert “or (1A)”.

(4) In sub-paragraph (3), in the opening words—

(a) after “and every” insert “conveyancing services”;

(b) after “provide conveyancing” insert “or other”.

(5) After sub-paragraph (3) insert—

“(3A) During that period, every CLC practitioner services body recognised under section 32 of the Administration of Justice Act 1985 is deemed to be authorised by the Council to administer oaths.”

(6) In sub-paragraph (4), after “(3)” insert “or (3A)”.

(7) For sub-paragraph (5) substitute—

“(5) In this paragraph—

“CLC practitioner services body” has the meaning given by section 32B of the Administration of Justice Act 1985;

“conveyancing partnership” means a partnership at least some of the members of which are licensed conveyancers, but does not include a CLC practitioner services body;

“conveyancing services body” has the meaning given by section 32A of the Administration of Justice 1985.”

(8) In sub-paragraph (6), after “licence” insert “or a licence under section 53 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990”.

17 In Schedule 24 (index of defined expressions), at the appropriate places insert—

“CLC practitioner services body paragraph 11 of Schedule 5”;
“conveyancing services body paragraph 11 of Schedule 5”;
“licensed CLC practitioner section 104(3)”.”

42: After Schedule 18, insert the following new Schedule—

“The Council for Licensed Conveyancers: other amendments

1 The Administration of Justice Act 1985 is amended as follows.

2 (1) Section 15 (issue of licences by the Council for Licensed Conveyancers) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (3)(b), for the words from “the period” to “the Council” substitute “the period prescribed under subsection (3A)”.

(3) After subsection (3) insert—

“(3A) The Council must by rules prescribe the period that applies for the purposes of subsection (3)(b).”

3 (1) Section 18 (suspension or termination of licences) is amended as follows.

(2) After subsection (2C) insert—

“(2CA) Where the power conferred by paragraph 6(1) or 9(1) of Schedule 5 is exercised in relation to a recognised body by virtue of paragraph 10(1)(a) of Schedule 6, the exercise of that power shall operate immediately to suspend any licence under this Part held by a person who is a manager of the recognised body.

(2CB) Where the power conferred by paragraph 6(1) or 9(1) of Schedule 5 is exercised in relation to a recognised body by virtue of paragraph 10(1)(d) of Schedule 6, the exercise of that power shall operate immediately to suspend any licence under this Part held by a person who is—

(a) a manager of the recognised body, or

(b) an employee of the recognised body.

(2CC) Where the power conferred by paragraph 3(1) or 8(1) of Schedule 14 to the Legal Services Act 2007 is exercised in relation to a licensed body by virtue of paragraph 1(2)(d) of that Schedule, the exercise of that power shall operate immediately to suspend any licence under this Part held by a person who is—

(a) a manager of the licensed body, or

(b) an employee of the licensed body.

(2CD) At the time when the power referred to in subsection (2CA), (2CB) or (2CC) is exercised, the Council may direct that subsection (2CA), (2CB) or (2CC) (as the case may be) is not to apply in relation to a particular licensed conveyancer.

(2CE) The Council may give a direction under subsection (2CD) in relation to a licensed conveyancer only if—

(a) the Council is satisfied that the licensed conveyancer did not fail to comply with the rules applicable to the recognised body by virtue of section 32, or contribute to the body’s failure to comply with such rules, in a case where the Council acts by virtue of paragraph 10(1)(a) of Schedule 6,

(b) the Council does not suspect the licensed conveyancer of dishonesty, in a case where the Council acts by virtue of—

(i) paragraph 10(1)(d) of Schedule 6, or

(ii) paragraph 1(2)(d) of Schedule 14 to the Legal Services Act 2007,

(c) the Council is satisfied that the licensed conveyancer was not a manager of the recognised body when the conduct providing the basis for the exercise of the power in paragraph 6(1) or 9(1) of Schedule 5 took place, in a case where the Council acts by virtue of paragraph 10(1)(a) of Schedule 6,

(d) the Council is satisfied that the licensed conveyancer was not a manager or employee of the recognised body when the conduct providing the basis for the exercise of the power in paragraph 6(1) or 9(1) of Schedule 5 is suspected of having taken place, in a case where the Council acts by virtue of paragraph 10(1)(d) of Schedule 6, and

(e) the Council is satisfied that the licensed conveyancer was not a manager or employee of the licensed body when the conduct providing the basis for the exercise of the power in paragraph 3(1) or 8(1) of Schedule 14 to the Legal Services Act 2007 is suspected of having taken place, in a case where the Council acts by virtue of paragraph 1(2)(d) of Schedule 14 to that Act.

(2CF) At the time when the power referred to in subsection (2CA), (2CB) or (2CC) is exercised, the Council may direct that such of the licensed conveyancers concerned as are identified in the direction may continue to act in relation to any matter specified in the direction as if their licences had not been suspended by virtue of subsection (2CA), (2CB) or (2CC) (as the case may be), subject to such conditions (if any) as the Council sees fit to impose.”

(3) In subsection (2D), after “(2A)” insert “, (2CA), (2CB) or (2CC)”.

(4) In subsection (2G), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(5) Omit subsection (2H).

4 (1) Section 19 (register of licensed conveyancers) is amended as follows.

(2) After subsection (1) insert—

“(1A) The Council may make rules specifying the further information, including information about disciplinary measures taken, to be recorded in the register in relation to a person.”

(3) In subsection (2), omit “accordingly”.

5 In section 20 (rules as to professional practice, conduct and discipline), omit subsection (2).

6 (1) Section 24 (preliminary investigation of disciplinary cases) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (10), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(3) In subsection (11), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(4) Omit subsection (12).

7 (1) Section 24A (determination of allegations by the Investigating Committee) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (8), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(3) In subsection (9), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(4) Omit subsection (10).

8 (1) Section 26 (proceedings in disciplinary cases) is amended as follows.

(2) For subsection (7) substitute—

“(7) Where the Discipline and Appeals Committee make an order by virtue of subsection (1)—

(a) the person against whom the order is made, or

(b) the Council, may appeal to the First-tier Tribunal, and on any such appeal the First-tier Tribunal may make such order as it thinks fit.”

(3) In subsection (7A), for “High Court” (in both places where it occurs) substitute “First-tier Tribunal”.

(4) Omit subsection (8).

9 In Schedule 3 (the Council for Licensed Conveyancers: supplementary provisions), in paragraph 4 (appointment of persons to Council), in sub-paragraph (2), omit “by one”.

10 (1) Schedule 6 (bodies recognised under section 32: supplementary provisions) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 3A (orders made by the Investigating Committee)—

(a) in sub-paragraph (8), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”;

(b) in sub-paragraph (9), for “High Court” substitute “First-tier Tribunal”;

(c) omit sub-paragraph (10).

(3) In paragraph 6 (appeals against orders of the Discipline and Appeals Committee)—

(a) for sub-paragraph (1) substitute—

“(1) Where the Committee make an order by virtue of paragraph 4(1) or (2A) or 5(1)—

(a) the person as regards whom the order is made, or

(b) the Council, may appeal to the First-tier Tribunal, and on any such appeal the First-tier Tribunal may make such order as it thinks fit.”;

(b) in sub-paragraph (1A), for “High Court” (in both places where it occurs) substitute “First-tier Tribunal”;

(c) omit sub-paragraph (2).”

Amendments 41 and 42 agreed.

Schedule 19: Poisons and explosives precursors

Amendment 43

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

43: Schedule 19, page 216, line 14, leave out “level 5 on the standard scale” and insert “the statutory maximum”

Amendment 43 agreed.

Schedule 21: Legislation no longer of practical use

Amendments 44 and 45

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

44: Schedule 21, page 234, line 18, leave out from “1983,” to end of line 20

45: Schedule 21, page 234, line 23, leave out sub-paragraph (3)

Amendments 44 and 45 agreed.

Motion

Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire

That the Bill do now pass.