Third Reading

Part of Scotland Bill – in the House of Lords at 4:30 pm on 24 April 2012.

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Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office) 4:30, 24 April 2012

I apologise if I misrepresented what my noble friend said. However, the response is similar. Having identified criteria, whether in the Bill or not-we have had debates on that-the point I wish to make is that there are criteria there and the United Kingdom Government have shown that they are not a pushover. We set out criteria regarding devolution of existing taxes; we stood by that and I have no reason to doubt that having set out criteria regarding the devolution of any future tax, we would have to be satisfied before bringing forward to this and the other House an order to devolve further taxes.

Could I pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell? She said that a different debate was going on. The two debates are not mutually exclusive. The difference is that while there has been a lot of talk by the Scottish Government about change, this Bill actually delivers change. However, many of us want to get on to the wider debate. Inevitably there will have to be a debate on process-the shorter the period devoted to it the better-but there are important issues. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, clearly set out at least one of them: fiscal autonomy and its relationship to monetary policy. The conclusion of the Calman commission was that there was not much difference between fiscal autonomy and full independence. Clearly these are questions that will be debated in a much wider forum in the lead-up to a referendum.

There is an important issue about Europe and an independent Scotland's relationship with the European Union. I respectfully suggest that a person with the knowledge and expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, free from any party-political baggage, could give a view on that which people would listen to and would be an important contribution to a debate. I hear what is said about an independent commission. It might be a triumph of hope over experience, but I hope that there will be opportunities for independent think tanks and people with expertise and renown in their specific fields to come forward and express their views on the issues that will inevitably emerge in any referendum debate.

Having two questions was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I do not believe that that is sustainable. There is a clear difference between a debate on independence and a debate on the democratic processes for further devolution, as the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, said. They are two different things and to put the two on the one ballot paper would be mistaken, not least because of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and my noble friend Lord Selkirk. Whether one aspires ultimately to a federal United Kingdom or not, further devolution involves other parts of the United Kingdom. It will not be possible in 18 months to get the kind of consensus that would give a buy-in from other parts of the United Kingdom as we were able to achieve through the work of the convention and manifestos in 1997, which led to the original Scotland Act and, for that matter, the Wales Act. We have established a process to take forward a package of proposals that has already been put to the people in parties' respective manifestos and has now been legislated for by this Parliament. That is why the Government believe that we should go for a single clear question about whether Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom. Our view is very clear that it should.