Third Reading

Part of Scotland Bill – in the House of Lords at 4:15 pm on 24 April 2012.

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Photo of Lord Browne of Ladyton Lord Browne of Ladyton Shadow Spokesperson (Scotland) 4:15, 24 April 2012

I am sorry-it is Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. On this occasion I cannot even give the excuse that I am tired. In Committee and at Report these two noble Lords paid assiduous attention to almost every detail of the Bill and ensured that we all had the opportunity to scrutinise it rigorously.

I also want to thank the noble and learned Lord the Minister. I extend my thanks beyond him to the Bill team and to officials in the Treasury who have shown me the greatest courtesy. In a sense they have supported me by giving me access to substantial amounts of information on the Bill. Throughout this process they have engaged with our Benches and with my noble and learned friends Lord Davidson and Lord Boyd of Duncansby, and my noble friend Lord Eatwell, who have shared the responsibility for our Front-Bench work on the Bill. They have engaged with us very positively and I am exceptionally grateful to them for that: it has made my job much easier. I think that we have improved the Bill particularly on the issue of references to the Supreme Court-a process in which my noble and learned friend Lord Boyd of Duncansby has been intimately engaged. The process has been wholly satisfactory and I think that we can all be satisfied with the final result.

I feel duty bound to inform noble Lords of the conversations with the Government that have taken place since Report on the issue of the conditions for using the extraordinary power to add new devolved taxes that is now contained in, I think, Clause 23. There was significant consensus across the House that it would be valuable to place in the Bill the conditions for using this extraordinary power-first, to safeguard its use by the Executive, and, secondly, as a way of obtaining the buy-in of the Scottish Parliament on these criteria. As I was substantially responsible for encouraging that consensus across the House, I have a responsibility for, in a sense, disappointing the House at this stage in the debate.

As I have also been very careful to say at all stages of the Bill, we have to be mindful of the political realities that we currently face. We have been treated to some interpretation of those political realities in our rather extended and diverse debate on the Bill, but one has become used to that in considering some of its aspects. The political realities are such that the Government's commitments at Report were unsatisfactory, as I said in the debate. In essence, a year after enactment they are to bring forward a report on implementation of the financial provisions which will make specific reference to the list of conditions for using this power. That is the issue that exercised my and other noble Lords' minds. Significantly, we have learnt since Report stage that the report will also be submitted to the Scottish Parliament, which will have an opportunity to thoroughly debate and agree to the provisions. That at least provides the opportunity for the engagement of the Scottish Parliament that I sought. However, it is not guaranteed to happen and I am not overplaying it.

Those additional facts, combined with the clear priority of the LCM-the legislative consent Motion, which was to be debated before we came to Third Reading-were, on balance, enough for it to be considered unwise to bring forward further amendments on this issue. With some reluctance I accepted that conclusion, despite being aware that I was disappointing the expectations of many noble Lords, and noble and learned Lords, in the House. I had encouraged those expectations, so to that extent I apologise. If it has in any way damaged my relationship with noble Lords or reduced their view of my worth to this House then I shall have to endeavour over the course of the coming months and years to remake that. However, that is where we are.

I turn now to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, as somebody has to. I do so with some reluctance because I know how it encourages him to come back.

I start off by saying that I have sympathy with his analysis of the paucity of understanding of the full implications of this Bill in Scotland. I agree with him that we ought to ensure that the Bill is better understood in Scotland. I almost immediately part company with him thereafter, for two reasons-first, because renaming the Bill will do little to address that deep-seated problem for which many of those in devolution parties have to take responsibility. It is inappropriate to expect those who do not support devolution but seek independence for Scotland to trumpet the opportunities and potential benefits of a piece of legislation that reinforces devolution. Although it will probably never settle the argument of Scotland's relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, for some people in Scotland-and I expect this to continue throughout the rest of my life-if properly understood, it will strengthen the union.

The responsibility lies with us. It is potentially helpful, but not the answer, to simply change the Long Title of the Bill. I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, seeks to do that, but you do not have to listen to him for very long to realise that it is a vehicle for him to articulate arguments that he has been articulating to the people of Scotland for some time in the confident knowledge that, if he lives long enough, some day he will be proved correct. The fact of the matter is, with all due respect to the noble Lord, that although we listen to him intently and I enjoy immensely his ability to make an argument, the people of Scotland stopped listening to him a long time ago. It is unfortunately true and I am sorry about it, because they would be better informed, perhaps, if on occasion they did listen to him-but they stopped listening to him a long time ago. That is part of the problem. The British tourist abroad, speaking slowly and loudly, does not work any longer with Scotland. Those of us who put ourselves forward for political office have an obligation to make our arguments in a much more sophisticated way and go with the grain of people's expectations. Of course, we all have responsibility for generating those expectations, as indeed I did-and disappointed expectations at Report on this Bill. Those of us who believe in the union all have our DNA to some degree in the state of the Scottish scene at the moment, and we have a responsibility to deal with the issues and challenges generated from that.

This is a good Bill, and I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in that regard. It is a constitutionally significant Bill, and the new tax-raising and borrowing powers are worth in the order of £5 billion to £6 billion, marking an historical development in the financial accountability and autonomy of the Scottish Parliament. Furthermore, measures such as the devolution of drink-driving and speed limits as well as the regulation of air weapons ensures that the devolution settlement continues to respond to the needs and aspirations of the people of Scotland.

In recent months, much reference has been made to a new, notional devolution settlement, or maximum devolution, which for the most part has taken the form of a fill-in-the-blanks exercise. But ultimately politicians are kidding themselves if they think that the people of Scotland are interested in some esoteric debate about devo-max versus devo-plus versus the status quo. This Bill is the consequence of a sensible process; its origins lie in the Calman commission, and I repeat my thanks to those Members of this House and others who served on that commission. The work that they did has not been given the credit that it deserves, and it is well worth revisiting the argumentation for the recommendations that gave rise to the Bill. The Bill presents the people of Scotland with a clear and concrete vision for the future of devolution, a vision that is evidence-based, thanks to the Calman commission; has the support of Scottish business, Scottish civic society, experts and academics; and will when properly understood and implemented support the future prosperity and aspirations of Scotland within the union.

The fundamental reason why we need to deliver this Bill is that we promised it in all of our manifestos to the Scottish people, and the worst thing that we can do for the union at this stage is to fail to keep our word. That would be the most persuasive evidence that those who want to break up the union could have that we cannot be trusted to keep our word. Regardless of whether we think in retrospect that the time is not now right for this, in dealing with the people of the United Kingdom, and in particular with the people of Scotland in the current environment, the time is always right to keep our word. We have to keep our word to the people of Scotland, and then we have to move on.

We know what we have to move on to do: we have to address the issues that will be debated in Scotland. That will involve what I think will be the greatest political challenge of my political lifetime-Scotland's future in the union, an issue which is about to come to a head. Having kept our word to the people of Scotland, we can with credibility move forward to make the arguments for why Scotland is better off staying in the union, and why it is better for the union of the United Kingdom for Scotland to continue to be part of it. As I have said before, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, that that debate needs to be informed by independent analysis and research so that nobody can say that the facts being put forward have been filtered through some sort of political process or other.

Many of us would like not to have to face that battle, but we have to do it. We in this House and from this Parliament can hold our heads high and say that we delivered what we promised to the people of Scotland in response to a process which was logical, supported by them and analysed and understood at the time-and that we can be trusted to keep our word in the future. I hope that as we pass the baton for this legislation back to the other place, those who manage the business there will allow our elected representatives sufficient time to do what they have prevented them doing until now-to debate this Bill in a way that explains to the Scottish people what its potential is. I suspect, however, that that will be another hope that will be dashed by the way that we manage business.

I am not entirely sure whether our scrutiny of this Bill proves the case for the status quo as far as your Lordships' House is concerned. However, as a recently introduced Member of this House who has come from the other place, it has proved to me that this place certainly does a better job of debating the details of legislation. I have immensely enjoyed the quality of the debate. I may not have always been able to persuade your Lordships of the rightness of my argument, but I thank all those who took part in our debates for their contribution to them.