Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

– in the House of Lords at 3:09 pm on 27th March 2012.

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Clause 9 : General cases

Amendment 1

Moved by Lord McNally

1: Clause 9, page 6, line 25, leave out from "order" to "(whether" in line 26 and insert "-

(a) add services to Part 1 of Schedule 1, or

(b) vary or omit services described in that Part,"

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords 3:10 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, the Government have tabled government Amendments 1, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14 and 18 following the commitment I gave on Report. The Government have listened to the reasoned arguments presented by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford and other noble Lords, and we have brought forward these amendments accordingly.

Amendment 1 to Clause 9(2) would give the Lord Chancellor the power to omit, but in addition the power to add or vary the services in Part 1 of Schedule 1. He would be able to do so by modifying Parts 1 2, 3 and 4 of Schedule 1. The power to vary a service allows us to amend the existing services within the schedule where they need to be altered, but without the need to omit a service and then add a new service. For example, if the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 were amended in the future, any such amendment might not mean that services need to be added to the schedule, but it might be necessary to vary the provisions in paragraph 31 of Part 1 in order to reflect any such changes to those regulations.

The provisions of Amendment 1 mean that the power in Clause 9(2) would be similar to that which exists in Section 6(7) of the Access to Justice Act 1999. We consider that this is the correct and sensible approach to take. The powers in Clause 9(2) would be exercisable by the Lord Chancellor when making an order. Clauses 41(6) and 41(7)(a) mean that such an order would be subject to the affirmative procedure and so subject to debate in and approval by each House of Parliament.

Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, would allow services to be added but not to be omitted. As I have said, the government amendment provides for balance to the existing Clause 9. Amendment 2 seeks to go further and actually removes the ability to omit. I firmly believe that that power to omit is necessary and gives the Bill a welcome flexibility. An example of where this may be necessary is where the governing legislation behind an area of law is repealed or otherwise altered and we need to alter civil legal aid provision accordingly. Another example would be where particular court proceedings are moved to a tribunal. It may cease to be appropriate to provide funding for advocacy for those proceedings, so an amendment to Part 3 of Schedule 1 would be needed.

As a result of Amendment 1, we no longer consider that we need certain powers in Schedule 1 to make secondary legislation. The purpose of this is not to reduce the categories in which legal aid will be available but are more technical in nature. To ensure that this is clear, let me explain in detail the powers which will be removed. First, Amendments 6 and 7 relate to paragraph 4(1)(k) of Part 1 of Schedule 1, which concerns the care, supervision and protection of children and provides for further orders or procedures to be prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph. In the light of the power to add services proposed by Amendment 1, we consider that the power at paragraph 4(1)(k) of Part 1 of Schedule 1 is no longer necessary.

Secondly, Amendment 8 would omit paragraph 9(3)(n) of Part 1 of Schedule 1, which relates to community care. Paragraph 9(3) defines community care services as services,

"which a relevant person may provide", under a number of listed enactments. Heading (n) of that definition allows other enactments to be prescribed for the purposes of that definition. With the power to add services under Clause 9, this is no longer necessary.

Thirdly, Amendment 13 relates to paragraph 15(1)(g) of Part 1 of Schedule 1, which concerns the protection of children. Paragraph 15 refers to civil legal services where a person is seeking in a private law family case to protect a child from abuse by applying for any of the list of orders or procedures set out in paragraph 1, and paragraph 1(g) provides for further orders or procedures to be added by being prescribed for this paragraph. Again, this is now unnecessary.

As a result of these amendments, we have made consequential amendments to paragraph 21 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, which concerns judicial review, and Part 3 of Schedule 1. Amendment 18 makes consequential changes by removing paragraph 23 from Part 3 of Schedule 1. Paragraph 23 of Part 3 ensures that advocacy is available in relation to prescribed legal proceedings relating to orders and procedures that might have been prescribed under the powers in Part 1 of Schedule 1 which, as I have explained, we no longer consider necessary. There is, therefore, no need for paragraph 23 of Part 3. As a result, the reference to paragraph 23 of Part 3 in paragraph 21(10)(b), which defines judicial review, is removed by Amendment 14.

Amendment 1 meets the concerns raised in Committee and I urge the noble Lord, Lord Bach, not to move Amendment 2. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness D'Souza Baroness D'Souza Chair, House Committee (Lords), Lord Speaker 3:15 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I remind your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendment 2 for reasons of pre-emption.

Photo of Lord Thomas of Gresford Lord Thomas of Gresford Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the amendment. He knows that we on these Benches raised this issue before Second Reading. It is necessary to have flexibility brought into the Bill for two reasons: first, because economic conditions may improve and it may be possible to revert to a more generous legal aid scheme; and, secondly, because those of us with experience of litigants in person know they can clog up the courts and that, consequently, it may be necessary for urgent amendments to Schedule 1 to introduce legal aid to enable people to be legally represented. It is not fully appreciated by the public that legal representation shortens cases and leads to justice, rather than litigants in person trying to fight their own cause.

Photo of Lord Bach Lord Bach Shadow Spokesperson (Justice)

I thank the Minister for the concession that the Government have made today. The clause as it stands before we pass the Government's amendments should never have been in that form when the Bill was published and was always crying out for amendment. Indeed, members of my party in the Commons did their best to ensure that that happened. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and other noble Lords for persuading the Government that the clause needed changing. I shall not, of course, press my amendment; I will not move it.

I know the Minister and all other noble Lords will agree that the House seems somewhat empty today because our noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree is not with us in our deliberations. He took an active part in all the debates on the Bill for many months and, even though we could all see that he was not in good health, insisted on coming here, speaking his mind and voting in the way his conscience told him to vote. He took a real interest in the Bill and-I know all noble Lords will agree-it was a delight and privilege to work with him. It does not seem right or just that he is not here listening and speaking his mind. Having said that, I thank the noble Lord for the concession.

Photo of Baroness Butler-Sloss Baroness Butler-Sloss Crossbench

My Lords, as a Cross-Bencher, I add to what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has just said about the death of a man who was a great friend to many of us. Lord Newton was an adornment to this House, who stood, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has already said, for his conscience rather than for what his party, or any party, might wish. It is easy for me as a Cross-Bencher to examine my conscience, and I am well aware it is not so easy for members of political parties. He will be enormously missed. His name is on a number of today's amendments, and I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for saying something about this before I move to Amendment 1.

I congratulate the Government. I do not do it terribly often but am going to do it three times today. This amendment, as the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Bach, have said, is overdue. It is splendid that the Government have recognised the importance of having the ability to increase legal aid. I also very much support the fact that they are putting in "vary or omit". All of us who have had anything to do with legislation know that from time to time it becomes redundant and has to be got rid of or needs a tweak here and there, and therefore needs a variation. I support this amendment as it is.

However, if the Minister will forgive me, I will make one or two points about what has happened as a result of this Bill so far as family cases are concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has already mentioned this but I will add to it. I strongly urge the Government to review the impact of the legal aid changes no later than a year from now, to see what happens to the family courts in the light of the removal of nearly all private law cases from legal aid. I am not sure the Government really quite accept what a number of us have been saying, to the Ministers in this House and the other place, about the impact on the courts. There will be longer lists. I know the Ministry of Justice is already aware that the lists in the courts are too long, and they will be increased substantially.

There will be longer hearings. As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said-entirely accurately-without lawyers to keep a case under control, two litigants in person will spend an absolute age. The sort of case that takes a day, or possibly a day and a half to two, will take not less than a week. I have a vivid recollection of one litigant in person who took a week to give evidence and cross-examine. Every time I asked him to hurry up, it added another hour or two to the case. I am afraid I sat scribbling nonsense, because nothing he said was of any value to the conduct of the case.

It is going to be very difficult for district judges and magistrates to manage people totally caught up in the emotions of a failed relationship and fighting over money, a house or particularly children. They will have to do it but it will clog up the courts to an even more significant degree.

It will have an impact in children's cases. One example in child protection issues is the fact that drink or drug abuse is sometimes detected only during the hearing of a private law case. It is crucial that the person who is drinking or taking drugs to excess is tested to see what should be done as to whether that parent is fit to have care of the child, or even to see the child. The Minister will be aware that in the Norgrove report that point was made about the very thin line between the private law cases and those that tip over into child protection issues. On Report, we discussed whether the mediator would identify cases where there might be abuse. There is a hard core of 5 per cent of cases that cannot be settled between the parties-and, of course, that 5 per cent of cases will carry on regardless and may not ever come to the attention of the mediator.

I ask the Minister, in congratulating him on proposing the amendment, to have a real look at the impact on the family courts within no later than a year to see what is actually happening.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

My Lords, of course I associate myself with the expressions of sympathy on the untimely death of Lord Newton.

On the matter raised by the noble and learned Baroness, we are committed to undertaking a post-implementation review of the specific policies set out in the Bill. As she acknowledged, we have just replaced a ratchet by a regulator, which should also help in seeing whether some of her predictions come true, and how we react to that.

Amendment 1 agreed.

Amendment 2 not moved.

Schedule 1 : Civil legal services

Amendment 3

Moved by Baroness Grey-Thompson

3: Schedule 1, page 140, line 5, at end insert-

"Children under 18

1 (1) Civil legal services in relation to advice and proceedings where a child is, or proposes to be, the applicant or respondent in proceedings, or where the child is represented by a legal guardian, including-

(a) private family law;

(b) any benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension under-

(i) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992,

(ii) the Jobseekers Act 1995,

(iii) the State Pension Credit Act 2002,

(iv) the Tax Credits Act 2002,

(v) the Welfare Reform Act 2007,

(vi) the Welfare Reform Act 2011, or

(vii) any other enactment relating to social security;

(c) all areas of education law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(d) all areas of housing law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(e) all areas of debt-related disputes not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(f) all areas of immigration and asylum law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(g) all areas of clinical negligence law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(h) all areas of consumer law not otherwise covered in this Schedule;

(i) appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority;

(j) civil legal services relating to a review or appeal under section 11 or 13 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007; and

(k) civil legal services relating to an appeal to the Supreme Court."

Photo of Baroness Grey-Thompson Baroness Grey-Thompson Crossbench

My Lords, I speak to the amendment in my name and in those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Benjamin. I am also very proud to say that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, was included on this amendment, and I know that I speak for all those in this Chamber when I say that he will be greatly missed.

This amendment would make legal aid available for children in all current cases, including when they are victims of medical negligence. At present, legal aid helps just over 40,000 children every year who have civil justice legal problems in their own right. If the Bill is left as it stands, legal aid for around 35,000 children every year will continue, but legal aid will not be available for around 6,000 children under 18 who would qualify if the current rules remained in place. The Government have so far not explained why those 6,000 children will be treated differently from other children who have problems under the same categories of law.

This is now the 40th day of debate in your Lordships' House and in the other place. I do not believe that the Government have been able to explain the criteria that will decide, for example, why 220 children will continue to receive legal aid support in cases about their education but 110 will not. This is from among the numbers remaining after the Government conceded last June that legal aid would be kept for cases involving children with special educational needs-numbers obtainable only through a freedom of information request by the Children's Society.

When put on the spot about which children will lose legal aid, the Government say that they will be able to apply to be treated as exceptional cases under Clause 10. I do not believe that there should be any confusion or delay as to whether a child under 18 is entitled to legal advice and representation in British civil justice. Children are not adults-they do not have the capacity to represent themselves or to interpret the thousands of pages of laws and regulations that affect them.

The question of a child's capacity to represent themselves is explicitly recognised and provided for in international law. The Children's Commissioner for England, Dr Maggie Atkinson, wrote to the Lord Chancellor to warn that denying children a voice in legal proceedings would be in breach of the European convention. She said:

"Children, by virtue of their age and capacity, will not be able to present their case effectively in the majority of proceedings ... Children's need for legal aid in civil cases where they are a party should not be viewed as 'exceptional'".

I am very concerned that, in many of these cases, children have been put in the position of taking action against a local authority. It is a question of a child versus the state, and the state in this Bill is denying children the capacity to challenge it. Camila Batmanghelidjh of Kids Company told us about a child who came to her charity in desperate need of help, and how the charity's lawyer was able to use legal aid to challenge the local authority to accept its responsibilities. Camila said:

"She was under 18, but not recognised as vulnerable by the local authority despite being chronically abused at home. In the end the judge agreed with us and forced Lambeth to take her into care, when they were leaving her on the streets. I think the point we want to bring is how local authorities are not doing their job properly, and legal aid is the only way they can be held accountable".

However, what have the Government told us will happen to children denied legal aid? During Report in the other place, the Justice Minister said:

"Unaccompanied children with an asylum or immigration issue would have a social worker assigned to them, whose role would include helping the child to gain access to the same advice and support as a child who was permanently settled in the UK. They could also offer assistance with filling in forms and explaining terms, and give emotional support".-[Hansard, Commons, 31/10/11; col. 689.]

So a social worker is expected to help in a case that might well bring them against their own employer, the local authority. If we do not support this amendment, we will be asking a child to go into the courtroom alone to argue his or her case against a barrister paid for by the taxpayer. It will be unjust and unfair, and I believe that it will also be a false economy.

The Ministry of Justice believes that it can save £6 million or £7 million from its legal aid budget by denying legal aid to these 6,000 children, but the knock-on cost to the public purse could far outweigh that sum. As we have heard throughout the debates on this Bill, the Government have given no estimate of the knock-on cost that will arise because legal problems are not sorted out early, even though they accept that there will be wider costs to society and to the taxpayer. The Ministry of Justice response to the consultation on the Bill said:

"The lack of a robust evidence base means we are unable to draw conclusions as to whether wider economic and social costs are likely to result from the programme of reform or to estimate their size ... It is not possible to quantify accurately these wider costs".

To deny children, the most vulnerable in our society, the ability to access legal aid without any understanding of what the wider consequences would be is not something we should accept. I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Cormack Lord Cormack Conservative 3:30 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Eaton and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. Before doing so, I would like to add my tribute to those that have already been made to the late Lord Newton of Braintree-Tony Newton, as I knew him for almost 40 years. I was in the House of Commons when he joined us. He immediately made his mark as a man of calm determination who was never, even when he was in high office, tied to a particular political line. He always sought to follow his own conscience. I shall have great cause always to be grateful to him because when I was a lone voice on the Conservative Benches in speaking out at the time of Bosnia, he was Leader of the House yet he made sure that every week I was able to make my points, and he always responded with a degree of care, concern and empathy which endeared him to me then.

When I came into your Lordships' House, we immediately became allies on a number of issues, not least those which concern us this afternoon. Lord Newton was tenacious and determined, and nobody in this House will ever forget the courage of that man, standing with his oxygen machine either by the Throne or at the Bar of the House, then leaving the machine to come and speak-most recently from near the Cross Benches-on subjects which concerned him. His name was on both the amendments that I am talking about, so in tribute to him I want to say a few words about Amendment 4. In doing so, I in no way dissent from what the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has said but my amendment is more narrowly focused. I had an opportunity, along with colleagues from all parties, to discuss some of these issues with my noble friend Lord McNally last week. I thank him for the care and concern that he displayed when we discussed these extremely sensitive and important issues. What I said to him then in private I say now in this Chamber: I do not for a moment question his commitment or his concern, and I know that he is as anxious to do right as we all are. However, he is a member of the Executive.

The Government have decided to make a number of cuts in all departments. One understands why, and I am not going to cheapen this speech or this House today by trying to score points about the deficit. I say to my noble friend that of course the Government have to cut, but that does not mean that they have to cut in every department when in some departments, as in his, the sums are relatively small. Those small sums, though, can make such a difference to a great many extremely vulnerable people.

My amendment concentrates on the subject of clinical negligence and children. I stress one point in particular: those who are damaged by an agency of the state have a right to expect the assistance of the state, and the National Health Service is precisely that. If, in the care of the NHS, someone is damaged through clinical negligence then there should be an automatic right of redress. That is more particularly the case when we come to children, and that is what the amendment focuses on.

We had a debate a fortnight ago about those who had suffered brain damage from clinical negligence. They were to be treated differently from those who had been damaged physically in other ways. That is wrong. One should not discriminate in that manner between those who suffer physical damage, which may be with them for the whole of the rest of their lives, and those who suffer brain damage. I am not suggesting for a minute that there should not be assistance for all-indeed, that is the substance of the amendment-but it could be argued that those who suffer physical damage, be it paralysis or whatever, and who are conscious of that are in more personal need than those who suffer brain damage and may not be personally conscious of that.

It is wrong that we in this House should be passing any legislation without pointing that out and asking another place to think again, unless of course my noble friend can accept the amendment today, which would give us all great pleasure. If he cannot, although I hope very much that he will, then this amendment should be pressed to a vote in the event of the noble Baroness's amendment not being approved. It may well be-I certainly shall not oppose it-but, if it is not, I will then wish to press my amendment unless my noble friend has accepted its form and substance. If this House has any truly lasting point and purpose, and I believe as strongly as any Member of it that it has, then we have a duty to say, "You haven't got this quite right. You have got to rethink".

I suppose that I cannot be too greedy and expect the same sort of majority that we achieved yesterday, but I hope that if it is necessary to put this amendment to the vote then it will carry. Here, we are concerned with those least able to help themselves. This really is a case of, "Suffer the little children", and I very much hope that your Lordships' House will ask the Government to insert an amendment along these lines in the Bill before it finally becomes law.

Photo of Baroness Howe of Idlicote Baroness Howe of Idlicote Crossbench

My Lords, I, too, should like to add to the laments that we all feel at the death of Lord Newton. On both sides of the Chamber, we all picture him standing stalwart, despite his obvious disability and discomfort-determined, as always, to give a fair view of the legislation.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for the concessions that he made, particularly his government amendment regarding the victims of trafficking. It is most welcome. I also thank him as I was one of those at the meeting-of all parties and none-at which we all put our views to him. However, there remains a need to provide greater protection for vulnerable children and young people. My Third Reading amendment, Amendment 5, is very similar-almost identical-to that of my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson. The difference is mainly that it raises the upper age from 18 to 24 for this very vulnerable group. It would protect only the most vulnerable people-around 12,000 out of 69,000 18 to 24 year-olds who will lose access to legal aid, specifically those with a disability and those who have been in care.

It is hard to think of groups of people who are more vulnerable than those covered by this amendment. Generally, young people are rarely equipped with the knowledge, skills and legal capacity to resolve their problems without expert advice. This particularly applies to these vulnerable young people, who are far more prone to experiencing multiple and severe problems and are therefore far more likely to require this specialist legal intervention to prevent their situation escalating and spiralling out of control. How are these young people expected to cope when they have problems if they cannot obtain legal aid?

The House will not need reminding, particularly in this economic climate, that the country is experiencing record levels of youth unemployment, rising youth homelessness and increasing levels of adolescent mental health problems. These young people need special help to get them through to a more fulfilled adult life at less cost to the community. It cannot make any sense to deny them this access to the legal advice that they desperately need to help them resolve their problems and turn their lives around.

The Government have said in their new cross-departmental youth policy that they believe in providing additional and early help to disadvantaged and vulnerable young people, including those in care and those with disabilities. Our amendment would help the Government to meet this commitment. It would protect young people who have a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on their ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities, according to the definition of disability that is used in the Equality Act 2010. Many of this group's problems are in the area of social welfare law, being to do with housing, debt and welfare benefits. The considerable changes that many of your Lordships in this Chamber debated during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill will undoubtedly mean that more young people with disabilities will face social welfare problems and will need that help to understand and gain from the new benefits regime. It simply cannot be right to leave disabled young people without the support they need to enforce payment of their entitlements.

As I have said, the amendment would also protect care leavers under the age of 25. This group is also highly vulnerable. Care leavers are far more likely to end up unemployed, homeless or in prison-alas, this will happen to too many of them-and to experience high levels of common social welfare problems. They will need good legal advice to avoid poor outcomes. The amendment would cost around £4 million, a figure far lower than the cost of not providing access to legal aid for these young people.

Research by Youth Access shows that legal advice which is targeted at vulnerable groups is particularly cost-effective and that this group is more likely to experience stress, violence and homelessness if they do not manage to get good legal advice at an early stage. Each year, 750,000 young people aged between 16 and 24 become mentally or physically ill as a result of their unresolved social welfare problems. That is costing the NHS at least £250 million a year. Much of that cost could be avoided if those young people received better and earlier support. Research by JustRights shows that any savings made through denying young people civil legal aid are likely to be outweighed by increased costs in the criminal legal aid budget alone. The Local Government Association has said that it has concerns about the extra costs for local authorities arising from the withdrawal of legal aid from care leavers.

This amendment not only makes economic sense but is the right and fair thing to do if we are serious about protecting these most vulnerable members of society. I very much hope that, when the time comes, everyone, including the Minister, will support it.

Photo of Lord Thomas of Gresford Lord Thomas of Gresford Liberal Democrat 3:45 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, when I first looked at the Bill, I was pleased to see how much vulnerable adults and children are protected by the provisions of Schedule 1. One has only to look at the paragraph headings to see the protection that is given: for example, "Care, supervision and protection of children", "Special educational needs", "Abuse of a child or vulnerable adult", "Working with children and vulnerable adults". All these groups will remain within the scope of legal aid. Further headings comprise: "Mental health and mental capacity", "Facilities for disabled persons", "Inherent jurisdiction of High Court in relation to children and vulnerable adults", "Unlawful removal of children from the United Kingdom", "Family homes and domestic violence", "Victims of domestic violence and family matters", "Mediation in family disputes", "Protection of children and family matters", "Children who are parties to family proceedings" and "EU and international agreements concerning children". Over and over again the emphasis is placed on keeping the needs of children and vulnerable adults within the scope of legal aid. I look forward to hearing from my noble friend what proportion those headings represent of all the cases involving children. Those children's and vulnerable adults' issues will continue to be within the scope of legal aid.

There is one aspect of Amendment 3 with which I entirely agree-I spoke about this in Committee and on Report-which is that legal aid should be maintained for a review or appeal on social welfare issues and for,

"civil legal services relating to an appeal to the Supreme Court".

That is so for children, but my position is that it is important that legal aid for appellate processes should be available to all adults and children.

I listened with a great deal of sympathy to the exposition of Amendment 4 by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, but he should bear in mind that conditional fee agreements with one-way costing, which is the new way in which conditional fee agreements are to be entered into, will be available for people who are not covered by legal aid, and the new changes will be much more acceptable. For example, there will be protection against the defendant's costs for a losing claimant-a losing child or adult. They will not have to pay those costs. We have discussed those issues at length. The noble Lord should also bear in mind that the Government have announced that if you are legally aided and you obtain damages in a personal injury case, 25 per cent of those damages will be taken for the supplementary legal aid scheme to fund other people who are deserving of legal aid. Therefore, entitlement to legal aid will not mean that a person gets their damages in full. It is probably better in many of these cases to have a conditional fee agreement as it has been refashioned than it is to receive legal aid. I am sure that that is the way in which the legal profession will go.

Photo of Baroness Eaton Baroness Eaton Conservative

My Lords, I speak in support of the children's amendments moved and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and my noble friend Lord Cormack. I should like to add my thoughts on Lord Newton, who kindly supported the amendment. I know that we will all miss his integrity and compassion in all our debates, particularly around these sensitive subjects. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, because I and other noble Lords have had a number of conversations with him, and he has been most gracious in his dealings with us. However, I still find myself in the unhappy position of being unable to support the Government's intention to remove the clear and straightforward right to legal advice for children under 18 generally, and for all children who are injured in clinical negligence cases.

The Bill as it stands draws a distinction between, on the one hand, any child who suffers brain damage as a result of medical negligence before the age of nine weeks, and, on the other, any child suffering injury of any other kind caused by medical negligence-including a child who suffers from brain damage when they are nine weeks and one day old. Let me tell noble Lords about a Plymouth boy who suffered brain damage at the age of one when doctors at the Frenchay Hospital in Bristol failed to follow up a suspected aneurysm. Months later, he suffered a devastating bleed in his brain, which would have been avoided if the correct procedure had been followed. The boy will require care for the rest of his life; he cannot talk and will never be able to work. A settlement with North Bristol NHS Trust at the High Court in November 2011 will help to provide care for the rest of the boy's life. He is now 10. The case could not have been started without legal aid, which would not be available if the Bill were to pass unamended.

I simply do not see how children who have been injured in these often heartbreaking circumstances can be divided into two groups in this way. We would allow legal aid for a baby suffering brain damage at birth, but deny legal aid to a baby suffering brain damage in hospital at the age of one. Or we would prevent a child who has been paralysed from seeking help. Just imagine two babies at two weeks old in the same hospital. One is brain damaged and the parents can seek support on their behalf, while the other is paralysed and the parents cannot get legal aid.

Are we really saying that a brain-damaged child who can walk needs more care and support than a child who has to be carried to the bathroom and turned in bed during the night? The severe difficulties facing the child's parents will be exactly the same in both cases. They will be desperate for help. They will want to know whether they have a legal case and, first and foremost, they will be giving their child the day-to-day care and love that all parents must, whatever the difficulties.

Are we really going to ask half of those parents to appeal to the director of legal aid casework to see whether their child qualifies for legal aid as an exceptional case-as if that would be a satisfactory way to organise legal aid for children even from the Government's point of view? I ask noble Lords to consider the expense, bureaucracy and delay that will result from such an approach.

I have highlighted medical negligence but, as a former leader of a local authority, I could go through each subject heading and make a similar case. The simple truth is that children are defined as minors in law because they cannot represent themselves and sometimes need protection and redress from their families and from the state. It is not good enough to suggest that a social worker can apply for their legal support as an exceptional case. Social workers are not legal executives and have no legal training. Inherent in that suggestion is a misunderstanding of the nature of the legal actions that may be taken. In most cases, the child will be challenging a decision or action taken by the local authority. Do we really believe that every social worker will apply for a child to have legal aid in cases which challenge his or her decisions or those of his or her employer?

All of us in this House understand that in a healthy democracy, it must be possible to challenge the state, particularly where children are concerned. We also understand that there are lots of terrible cases where children's voices have not been heard, which is why we need to ensure that they can take independent legal advice that is accessible directly, not via a social worker or any other arm of government.

I support the amendments because I believe that they will save an enormous amount of trouble and wasteful expenditure for the Government, whom I support. I want to help the Government to pull back from what would be a regrettable and avoidable mistake, and they will save a great deal of anxiety for parents who are already coping with more than anyone should have to bear.

Photo of Lord Avebury Lord Avebury Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I would have been inclined to support the amendment if I had not been here to listen to the debate and heard what my noble friend had to say, which appears basically to contradict the argument just made by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton. She was saying that in the case of the infant who died at Frenchay Hospital, the case could not have been brought if legal aid had not been available; but my noble friend said that it was preferable, in terms of the amount that the litigant would receive, to conduct a case of this sort through the conditional fee arrangements which are now available. The litigant would have ended up with more money than would have been available to the child under the arrangements that prevailed at the time of that terrible accident.

I should like to hear from my noble friend when he winds up whether it is a general principle that can be accepted on all sides of the House that people who were formerly legally aided would have done worse than those who are now to be conducting their cases under the CFA. Saying that we do not need an arrangement of the sort put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is a very powerful argument.

I also thought that perhaps the noble Lord had failed to notice that in all these cases involving children there is a litigation friend, who has to be approved by the court. Therefore, his comment that we are looking at people who are least able to help themselves may not be altogether valid. The parent or a suitable adult always appears on the child's behalf and the child does not have to go into the court without that support. Therefore, although children may be apparently less able to conduct litigation, they do not have to deal with these matters in the court; litigation friends appear on their behalf.

Photo of Lord Cormack Lord Cormack Conservative 4:00 pm, 27th March 2012

I am well aware of that but the point that I was seeking to make in a very brief speech was that those who are damaged by an agency of the state deserve the help of the state automatically if they are seeking redress.

Photo of Lord Avebury Lord Avebury Liberal Democrat

I am not sure that that proposition is right. I do not think that my noble friend had borne in mind the possibility that the child would do better financially under the CFA. That is a very important consideration. In fact, in my mind it is the determining consideration in how I approach this amendment. If the argument of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford is correct, it is conclusive that we should not support the amendment but that we should allow cases to go forward under the CFA, under which people will be better compensated than they would have been.

Photo of Baroness Massey of Darwen Baroness Massey of Darwen Labour

My Lords, I have put my name to an amendment in this group-that in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and others. I simply make one appeal to the Government concerning their commitment to protect vulnerable children and young people.

I declare an interest as the chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children. Over the past year our theme has been vulnerable children. We have heard about the problems that such children and their families have in dealing with complex systems such as education, health and the law, and we have heard many passionate and committed speeches about these young people today. In my experience, this House has never been party-political on issues regarding children; it has always considered the well-being of children to be above party politics. That spirit has been shown today on the Benches opposite, and long may it continue.

The Minister for Children, Sarah Teather, for whom I have the greatest respect, made a commitment in 2010 to assess legislation against the needs of children, as enshrined in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and I find it ironic that we are now considering legislation that will potentially damage vulnerable children and their families. The Government, in their report Positive for Youth-I shall not go into that but the commitment is there-made commitments to protect disadvantaged and vulnerable children, and the Liberal Democrat youth policy Free to be Young makes commitments to improve young people's access to legal advice. I think we should all remember those commitments today. I trust that the Government will recognise that intervention at an early age, particularly for the vulnerable, is not only humane; it also benefits well-being and is cost-effective. I hope that the Government will look again at the commitments to vulnerable children and young people.

Photo of The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds Bishop

My Lords, as the first speaker from these Benches in this debate, I add my gratitude for all the work of Lord Newton of Braintree. It seems strange to be sitting here without his advice from behind me, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said earlier in the debate. He had immense care and concern for children's needs and rights, which was evident right up to last week. Not to have his sharpness here in this debate is a loss for all of us, so our thanks to him.

The amendments would go a long way to providing security of legal aid for some of our most vulnerable children, at minimal cost. We seem now to have reached a point where legal aid will be provided for many children. I have listened carefully to what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Avebury. It seems to be almost accidental whether a particular child will come under the provisions of the Bill. The amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, gives us the opportunity to treat all children in difficulties equally, with particular concern for education and sanctuary issues.

We all recognise the importance of education for all, so we must be concerned that Black Caribbean pupils, for example, according to the children's commissioner, are four times more likely than others to be excluded permanently from school. Those children will often be vulnerable, frightened and very unsure about their future. They need the structure of the legal system to provide them with support at that point in their lives. Equally, we continue to affirm that we have an immigration system that deliberately provides sanctuary for children who have been victims of abuse of whatever kind. They may have been trafficked into this country-and I, too, welcome the Government's changes on that issue. However, many will not have been trafficked; trafficking is extremely difficult to define. Nevertheless, they may have suffered sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or abuse. They may have been brought into this country as domestic slaves and will often have been abused. Some will be the subject of custody cases, which may lead to abuse or separation from a parent. Others would be in danger of abuse if they returned to a country where exploitation would continue.

Justice demands proper legal representation and the amendments provide a way of securing that at minimal cost. They would demonstrate our concern for the most vulnerable young people in our society. They are absolutely in accord with the Government's aims and purposes, and I hope, therefore, that they will accept them

Photo of Lord Wigley Lord Wigley Plaid Cymru

My Lords, I rise to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and apologise for missing her opening remarks. However, before briefly addressing the amendment, I would like to associate myself with the words in remembrance of Lord Newton. In another place I worked very closely with him, as Tony Newton, when I was vice-chair of the parliamentary All-Party Disablement Group. Even when he could not meet us in all our demands, he was always very positive and looked for ways to come at least some of the way towards us. He will be a great loss for all of us in this House as well as for the many thousands outside the House for whom he worked so hard.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for some of the concessions that he has been able to make at other times-particularly for those with learning difficulties-which I was unable to acknowledge earlier.

On this specific amendment, all of us who have had reason to work on behalf of disabled children will be aware of the need to ensure that they get fair play within the system. If there is any danger of them losing out and not being able to go to appeal on benefits then there need to be safeguards in legislation.

Many of us served for weeks on end on the Welfare Reform Bill. We hoped that some amendments would strengthen it and make it more easily understood. In reality, the amendments failed. There will be challenges to the interpretation of the legislation that will need to go to the courts. Unless provisions such as those in the amendment are included in the Bill, people will miss out. Therefore, even if some aspects-to which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, referred-are already covered elsewhere, others are not. Therefore, let us give another place a chance by agreeing the amendment. If there is then a need to pare it back, all well and good-but at this point, unless we agree the amendment we will lose everything.

Photo of Lord Phillips of Sudbury Lord Phillips of Sudbury Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I was the constituent of Lord Newton of Braintree-Tony Newton-for nearly 20 years, and he was a close friend for the rest of his life. If I need a little courage in order not to follow the Whip today on at least one of the amendments in this group, I will get it from his memory. He was an extraordinary man of both first-class intellect and a really big heart. I do not know anybody who managed to marry intellect and heart in quite the effective way that he did.

I have practised law for more than 50 years. The memories that stick with me most are of trying to help-and often to help young people under 18 and their worried parents get fairness from a barbarically complicated legal system. I understand the extraordinary difficulty faced by my noble friend Lord McNally-and by the Government. They have the hugely difficult and unwelcome task of cutting back and saving on public expenditure. However, we are faced here with a balance between £6 million to £8 million, and justice for the particularly vulnerable and needy group of our fellow citizens who are under 18.

Looking down the list of issues that Amendment 3 covers, it is almost impossible not to believe that they are all essential elements of justice in the 21st century. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made the point that the downstream costs of not addressing these sorts of issues with at least timely advice are likely to exceed any up-front savings. The King's Fund report made that clear.

On balance, I am persuaded by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford that I need not support Amendment 4. In the same way, I will be able to compromise on Amendment 5, even with the shadow of Tony standing over me. To extend the age limit to 24 would have a dramatic effect. Those in the 18 to 24 age group are more likely than the younger group to be able to look after themselves when it comes to advice and a limited amount of representation.

Finally, I wish that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, was in his place. Those of us who have been practitioners in the law will remember the happy days ushered in by the Conservative Government of 1980, and the noble and learned Lord's creation of the green form scheme, which meant that we could advise on all these things automatically, without reference to anybody and with a cap on how much we could charge. I wish we could get back to those happy days. In the mean time, I fear that I may be forced at least to abstain on Amendment 3 unless my noble friend Lord McNally comes up with a wholly unexpected concession -and I hope that he will.

Photo of The Earl of Listowel The Earl of Listowel Crossbench 4:15 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, bearing in mind the wish of the House, I imagine, to move to a speedy conclusion in this debate, I shall say one sentence in support of my noble friend Lady Howe on Amendment 5 with regard to children leaving care. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, just spoke of 18 to 24 year-olds and of his doubt that there is a necessity to protect them in law in this way with regard to legal aid. However, I would draw the House's attention, and his attention in particular, to the experience of young people in care leaving care. A quarter of young people in care leave their foster carer or children's home at the age of 16. These children have been traumatised-they would not have been taken into care unless that was the case.

Very few of them can stay with their foster carer or in their children's home beyond the age of 18, so past that age most of these traumatised young people have to fend for themselves. They get some additional support, but they are pretty much on their own. The average age at which most of our children leave home and have to fend for themselves is 24, so I hope that your Lordships will keep in mind the particular vulnerability of young people leaving care. It is recognised in the Children (Leaving Care) Act, which gives them special consideration until the age of 21 and until the age of 24 if they are in education or training. I hope that the Minister will give that a sympathetic ear.

Photo of Lord Crisp Lord Crisp Crossbench

My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and I would like to speak very briefly following on from his eloquent speech and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and others. First, like others, I am appreciative of the concessions that have already been made, but I think that they do not go far enough on clinical negligence. I recognise that it is a relatively small number of children who are left out by the concessions that have already been made.

As a former chief executive of the NHS, I add my simple tribute to Lord Newton of Braintree. He was chair of one of our great hospitals and, like others, I benefited from his wise and useful advice on many occasions.

Like others in your Lordships' House who are associated with the NHS, I know very well the distress to all concerned that is involved in these clinical negligence cases. It obviously affects the children and their families, but also the staff and the institutions. What is most important here is to make whatever processes that are available as simple and quick as possible.

The Government's proposal fails on three key points. First, what impact will these changes have on access to redress for this vulnerable group? I do not think from anything we have heard in this and earlier debates that they will improve access in any way but will undoubtedly damage it. Secondly, will it save the Exchequer and the NHS money? It will save the Exchequer money in the sense of saving money on legal aid, but all the evidence I have seen is that it will cost the NHS more through the processes that are being introduced. Thirdly, will it speed up and simplify the process for all concerned? I stress "all concerned", including the staff of the NHS. I think the comments by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, made it clear that it simply will not. For all those reasons, I urge the Minister to reconsider and to accept this amendment, which will bring into scope a relatively small number of children to the benefit of us all.

Photo of Lord Faulks Lord Faulks Conservative

My Lords, I speak as a practitioner in clinical negligence. Doctors who work in the NHS might be slightly surprised to find themselves described as "agents of the state", but I take the point that the noble Lord makes that they should be accountable. Of course, they are accountable, and they can still be sued under the CFA system. The difference between the children in cases that are still outside scope unless this amendment is allowed and the children who will be within scope because of the concession made by the Government is, as I understand it, because of an assessment of the complexity of the cases. The Government have taken the view that because brain-damage cases require an enormous amount of investigation, there is a real risk that no one will take them on a CFA basis, whereas these children cases are, by and large-and I admit that the lines are not always hard and fast-less complex than that. I would respectfully suggest that although these are hard choices, it is a reasonable choice for the Government to have made in the circumstances.

I conclude by saying that I, too, received a great deal of assistance from the late Lord Newton as a new arrival in your Lordships' House. I know that he would regard these brief observations of mine as-as he would describe it-very loyal, and I fear he would not have regarded that as a compliment.

Photo of Baroness Benjamin Baroness Benjamin Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I support Amendments 3 and 5. I also pay tribute to Lord Newton. In the short time I knew him, he always showed integrity, dignity, compassion and a smiling face right till the end. He was a true gentleman. I also thank my noble friend Lord McNally for meeting with me, and for showing compassion and making it clear that children and vulnerable young people will continue to be covered by legal aid-and I believe him.

It therefore makes no sense for the 3 per cent of children and young people covered by these amendments to have to apply for legal aid from a fund that is called "legal aid for exceptional cases"-by definition, there will not be any exceptional cases as all children and young people are covered. Neither does it make sense to be applying for funds through a social worker or a local authority when the person or organisation being challenged may well be the young person's own social worker or local authority. Even an adult would have difficulty with that process.

Therefore, the House has two options before it today, which are about the system and not the scope of legal aid. Option one is what Amendments 3 and 5 are all about. It would keep the current system where a child or vulnerable young person or their legal guardian can go to an independent lawyer, where they will be means-tested on the spot and their case reviewed. If they qualify, they will be given legal aid to cover them for legal advice and representation where appropriate.

Option two is the new system proposed by the LASPO Bill, in which a child will need to ask their social worker, who is not legally qualified, to make the time to apply for funding from the Ministry of Justice. However, no details have been given as to how long this will take, what legal training will be given to the social worker, how much the new system will cost, what happens if a social worker has not yet been allocated to the child or young person or how they will even find out how to do this.

I believe that the new system being proposed will be bureaucratic, expensive and time-consuming, and could lead to many miscarriages of justice. Even my noble friend the Minister says in his letter that this system will be challenged and end up in expensive cases of judicial review-meaning more money for the highest paid lawyers, paid for by the taxpayer. This is not common sense.

I ask the Government to think again, to bridge that narrow gap, and include not just the 97 per cent already accounted for in the Bill, as my noble friend Lord Thomas highlighted, but all children, including that last 3 per cent of vulnerable children, who may be living independently from their parents, living in care or escaping difficult family circumstances. As I always say, childhood lasts a lifetime and these early experiences will have a fundamental effect on their lives. For the sake of these children, I ask the House to support Amendments 3 and 5, which would establish an independent process understood by all.

Photo of Baroness Masham of Ilton Baroness Masham of Ilton Crossbench

My Lords, in supporting these amendments I give an example concerning Amendment 4. Recently, I had a letter about a tragic case. A baby had a boil on his behind. When his mother took him to have his polio vaccine, she queried the fact that he had a boil with the nurse. The nurse queried it with the doctor who said, "Go ahead and given him the vaccine". The baby developed polio through the urine in his nappy. Now, years later, the boy is paralysed but the family have had no help and are still trying. Many cases need to be sorted out early to save years of anguish.

Photo of Lord Bach Lord Bach Shadow Spokesperson (Justice)

From the opposition Front Bench I can be extremely brief, as I should be because this is Third Reading. These are very important amendments which the House will have to decide on shortly. JustRights has done some number-crunching on the issue of children. It points out that, while 95 per cent of funding may be protected, only 74 per cent of children are protected likewise. Therefore, the 6,000 mentioned by the noble Baroness who moved Amendment 3 will be left to navigate the legal system alone. These children will have no adult to help them-no litigation friend, in parlance.

It is absurd to think that in social welfare law cases, a conditional fee agreement is any substitute whatever for basic legal aid for getting legal advice for the kind of problems that affect these children. In effect, we are being asked to abandon some of these children- 16 year-olds perhaps-to a legal system that is far from understandable. They will be mainly children in care who have fractured relationships with their parents. The House knows so well that these are exactly the kind of children who, if they do not get early legal help, may end up in young offender institutions or secure children's homes at enormous cost to the state, which would be much more than the small amount that the Government claim will be saved by not giving them legal aid. How much wiser would it be to spend that money early? Surely, for children, legal aid is greatly preferable to a CFA right across the board. We support the amendments.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

My Lords, in debates like this, I am always a little worried that noble Lords not in the Chamber when the Division Bells ring will come along and say, "What is this about?". They may be told, "Oh, we are voting on legal aid for children". Let us be clear, these amendments and this debate are not about whether we provide legal aid for children and vulnerable people; nor is it about not being willing to help those least able to help themselves; and nor is it about denying help to the most vulnerable in our society.

As my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford pointed out, the core principle of our reforms is to ensure that civil legal services will continue to be available in the highest priority cases; for example, where a person's life or liberty is at stake or where children may be taken into care. The application of this principle has led us to protect the vast majority of funding and cases involving children. They include child protection cases, civil cases concerning the abuse of a child, special educational needs cases and cases involving children who are made parties to private family proceedings. Noble Lords will also recall that we have moved to make funding available for clinical negligence cases concerning brain-damaged infants. It is simply not true therefore to suggest that there will be no funding or very substantially reduced funding for the cases involving children and young people.

In addition, as indicated earlier, we have moved the amendment ratchet to "regulator" which will enable us to test whether some of the more dramatic warnings that have been issued about our reforms can be looked at. We are committed to undertake a post-implementation review of the specific policies set out in Bill. We believe that these safeguards are sufficient to ensure that children do not fall through the net. Our approach will mean that 97 per cent of current spend on cases involving child claimants will continue, and that is the overwhelming majority of current support. Spending reductions are never welcome, but I hope these figures put it beyond doubt that we have made a genuine endeavour to ensure that children are protected, even as we push on with the wider objective of our reforms, which is to focus scarce resources on the most serious cases, to contribute to savings and to reform the system.

I do challenge the assumption that the remaining 3 per cent will automatically require specialist legal advice rather than non-legal advice which can avoid involving a child in traumatic court processes. But, of course, the wider safeguards apparent in our reforms apply. First, if legal representation really is appropriate in an individual case, then exceptional funding will be available where required under the ECHR or EU law.

Perhaps I may take up a point made by my noble friends Lady Eaton and Lady Benjamin. They both took exception to the word "exceptional". The word is merely the label used to describe the test under Clause 10 and is not intended to have any special legal meaning. It simply signifies that these cases fall outside the normal scope of civil legal aid. There is no expectation that children or any other applicants would be required to fill in excluded case application forms. These will be completed by a solicitor, as they are now under the existing scheme, and our intention is that payments may be made towards the costs incurred in making a successful application. We propose that the application process for excluding certificated work will be broadly similar to the existing process for in-scope cases. A number of noble Lords have made the point by saying, "It's all very difficult and complicated", but unless you are going to make a blanket payment, you draw lines and make conditions. There is a certain element of bureaucracy, if that is the right word, but I do not believe that this is a new and complicated programme. It can be used easily and, as I have said, the word "exceptional" is used simply to designate those matters which are out of scope.

Secondly, we have been focusing on delivering additional resources for citizens advice bureaux and similar, which provide the general, practical advice that can often prove better than the drawn-out, adversarial experience of legal action. As noble Lords know, the Chancellor announced last week that we will be making a further £20 million-and this time it is £20 million of new money-available for each of the next two financial years. This comes on top of the £100 million voluntary sector transition fund.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

Citizens advice bureaux operate in a country that is 10 per cent poorer than the last Government gave the country to understand. It is absurd to pretend that citizens advice bureaux or any other sector-local government and national government -should not face this reality.

In civil cases, it is already a requirement of the rules of civil litigation that a child or other protected party who lacks capacity must have a litigation friend to conduct a case on their behalf. In the case of a child, this is usually a parent unless the court specifically orders otherwise. It will only be in exceptional circumstances that the court will make an order permitting the child or protected party to conduct proceedings on their own behalf. Any step taken before a child or protected party has a litigation friend is of no effect unless the court makes such an order. There is no requirement that a litigation friend must act through a solicitor. It is therefore open to a child's parent or other person caring for the child, for example, to act as the child's litigation friend in proceedings where the child is a party. We believe that this provides a clear safeguard for children and vulnerable young people who lack capacity to conduct proceedings on their own behalf.

We recognise that Amendment 5 also covers the 18 to 24 year-old category. As I said earlier, we have provided for those who are most vulnerable. However, we have also been clear that, in what is a complex area, there must be flexibility. The exceptional funding scheme therefore provides a mechanism whereby the director of legal aid casework can grant legal aid in areas of scope which would normally be out of scope, where necessary, to ensure the protection of the individual's right to legal aid under ECHR and EU law. In cases engaging Article 6 of the ECHR, the director of legal aid casework must take into account a person's ability to represent themselves, the complexity of the proceedings, the importance of the issues at stake and all other relevant circumstances. An individual's age as well as their capacity will be a key consideration in determining a person's ability to represent themselves. The exceptional funding scheme will clearly be an important safeguard for children and vulnerable young people who would otherwise be unable to present their case.

Amendment 3, in particular, seeks to bring all cases back into the scope of legal aid where a child is a party, but the Bill already provides for child parties to be within scope of legal aid in family proceedings. The amendment is therefore in part unnecessary and seeks to replicate what is already in scope. The rest of the amendment seeks to keep funding across the board for children in all civil disputes without regard to the relative priority or alternative methods of resolving them. The majority of children will already fall within the scope of legal aid as provided for by the Bill. However, there are additional safeguards to provide further protection through exceptional funding powers and, should it prove necessary, the power to add to civil legal services.

Photo of The Archbishop of York The Archbishop of York Bishop

The Minister has not yet answered the question which I think the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, raised-and had I had the chance, I would have raised the same question-on Amendment 3, in relation to proposed new paragraph 1(1)(k), which specifies:

"civil legal services relating to an appeal to the Supreme Court".

I have not seen that provision in the Bill as drafted, but it is quite important. What will happen to it? I agree with the Minister about the other provisions, but I do not think that he has answered the question on that one.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

It is always a pleasure to see the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York in his place. I shall give him a definitive answer as I sum up and come to my peroration, as there are a number of other matters that I wish to cover.

Amendment 4 seeks to bring into scope children for all clinical negligence cases. I have already set out my arguments on how we have protected children in the Bill. On clinical negligence, in particular, we recognised the concerns that serious and complex cases involving brain-damaged babies may not be able to secure a conditional fee agreement, and we therefore brought forward an amendment on Report that will provide certainty for families and make the application process straightforward.

The amendments we have made will allow funding for cases where the negligence occurs in a period of time beginning with the point of the mother's pregnancy until eight weeks after birth. This does not mean that the symptoms have to become apparent during this period. They could become apparent beyond this period and still be in scope providing that the relevant negligent act or omission took place during that period. We also moved to include an additional safeguard in respect of babies who are born prematurely. We recognised that these children are particularly vulnerable in the post-natal period and have therefore provided that where a baby is born before the 37th week of pregnancy, the period of eight weeks will not run from birth but will be taken to start from the first day of what would have been the 37th week of pregnancy. I hope noble Lords will recognise that the Government have listened and acted to introduce back into scope the most serious clinical negligence cases involving children.

Amendment 5 seeks to bring into scope civil legal services in relation to advice and proceedings for any person who is 24 years old or under and has a disability, is a former care leaver or is a vulnerable person as specified by regulations. We have provided for those who are most vulnerable, as I have said, under Amendment 3, which covers those under the age of 18. However, we have also been clear that there must be flexibility in this complex area. The exceptional funding scheme therefore provides a mechanism whereby the director of legal aid casework can grant legal aid in areas that would normally be out of scope, where necessary, to ensure the protection of an individual's rights to legal aid under the ECHR and EU law. In cases engaging Article 6 of the ECHR, the director of legal aid casework must take into account a person's ability to represent themselves, the complexity of proceedings, the importance of the issues at stake and all other relevant circumstances. An individual's age as well as their capacity will be key considerations in determining a person's ability to represent themselves. The exceptional funding scheme will clearly be an important safeguard for children or vulnerable young people who would otherwise be unable to present their case.

I am told that we have lost the vote about retaining legal aid for appeals to the Supreme Court.

Photo of Lord Bach Lord Bach Shadow Spokesperson (Justice)

That is right, the Government have lost it. However, I hope that the noble Lord will go on to say that the Government will not try to overturn it.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York may be disappointed to know that he may have been absent to defeat us on that point at an earlier stage. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has indicated, the Government will look at these matters between now and consideration in the other place.

The only outstanding point that I wanted to cover was that made by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Avebury, about the balance between CFAs and legal aid in injury cases. Although I am not a lawyer, I would say that, on balance, CFAs are the most effective way of taking these cases. It is worth remembering that 82 per cent of cases are already covered by CFAs. People are not left abandoned on a lonely sea-the process works.

It is always difficult to draw lines and easy to say that the lines have been drawn in the wrong place. As I said in opening, the amount of coverage for young people in this area is completely different from what was suggested in some speeches today. We believe that between the coverage of scope that we put into this Bill, the workings of exceptional funding and the availability of wider advice, there will not be the kind of consequences that have been suggested. I also make it clear that we do not think that Amendments 3, 4 and 5 are consequential, so if noble Lords do press them, we would want to test the opinion of the House on each. However, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw her amendment.

Photo of Baroness Grey-Thompson Baroness Grey-Thompson Crossbench

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments and consideration. The House appreciates that he has perhaps been given little or no room for manoeuvre. I would also like to thank all Members who have tried to ensure that children's interests are safeguarded in this Bill. Most of all, I thank Members on the government Benches who have understood the problems with this legislation right from the start and have been prepared to raise them. We all understand that this is a very difficult thing to do. However, because of the very nature of the legislation and its impact on those unable in law to represent themselves, we need to ask the other place to take another look. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 3

Contents 232; Not-Contents 220.

Amendment 3 agreed.

Division number 1 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 230 Members of the House of Lords

No: 218 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Amendment 4

Moved by Lord Cormack

4: Schedule 1, page 140, line 5, at end insert-

"Children and clinical negligence

(1) Civil legal services provided in relation to clinical negligence in the course of the provision of clinical services which took place at a time when the individual was a child.

(2) In this paragraph-

"clinical negligence" means breach of a duty of care or trespass to the person committed in the course of the provision of clinical or medical services (including dental or nursing services);

"clinical negligence proceedings" means proceedings which include a claim for damages in respect of clinical negligence;

"child" means a person under the age of 18."

Photo of Lord Cormack Lord Cormack Conservative 4:59 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, the House has just approved an amendment which I felt included my own. I am reluctant to ask the House to vote again but, since my noble friend said that Amendment 4 is not consequential, I have something of a dilemma. It is my view that what the House has decided embraces what my amendment contains. However, since my noble friend is shaking his head vigorously, I must, with great reluctance, therefore test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 4

Contents 228; Not-Contents 215.

Amendment 4 agreed.

Division number 2 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 226 Members of the House of Lords

No: 213 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Amendment 5

Moved by Baroness Howe of Idlicote

5: Schedule 1, page 140, line 32, at end insert-

"Vulnerable young people

(1) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings under this paragraph where the applicant or respondent is aged twenty four or under, and-

(a) has a disability under section 6 of the Equality Act 2010;

(b) is a former relevant child (care leaver) by reference to the Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000;

(c) is a vulnerable person as specified by regulations; or

(d) otherwise falls within the categories of vulnerable young people which the Secretary of State may prescribe in regulations.

(2) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to any benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension under-

(a) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992;

(b) the Jobseekers Act 1995;

(c) the State Pension Credit Act 2002;

(d) the Tax Credits act 2002;

(e) the Welfare Reform Act 2007;

(f) the Welfare Reform Act 2012; or

(g) any other enactment relating to social security.

(3) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of employment law not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(4) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of housing law not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(5) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of law related to personal debt not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(6) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of immigration and asylum law not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(7) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of clinical negligence law not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(8) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to all areas of consumer law not otherwise covered in this Schedule.

(9) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority.

(10) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating a review or appeal under section 11 or 13 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

(11) Civil legal services provided in relation to advice and proceedings relating to an appeal to the Supreme Court."

Photo of Baroness Howe of Idlicote Baroness Howe of Idlicote Crossbench 5:14 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I, too, wish to test the opinion of the House. We are talking about a small group who, as my noble friend Lord Listowel put it so well, are highly likely to come from very deprived, disrupted backgrounds and are clearly in need of help. Over and above the success of the previous amendment-I am delighted with the result-I want to test the opinion of the House, and I hope that noble Lords will support my small amendment.

Division on Amendment 5

Contents 206; Not-Contents 229.

Amendment 5 disagreed.

Division number 3 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 204 Members of the House of Lords

No: 227 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Amendments 6 to 8

Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness

6: Schedule 1, page 141, leave out lines 31 to 33

7: Schedule 1, page 141, line 36, leave out ", or prescribed under,"

8: Schedule 1, page 144, leave out lines 37 and 38

Amendments 6 to 8 agreed.

Amendment 9

Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness

9: Schedule 1, page 145, line 26, at end insert "or to secure the return of a related child who has been unlawfully removed from the United Kingdom"

Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office) 5:28 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, this is an important government amendment on an issue that has been the subject of considerable debate in your Lordships' House and indeed, in the other place, on legal aid for cases of domestic child abduction. We have always been clear that legal aid should be available to both prevent and remedy international child abduction and, as indicated on Report, we have been listening sympathetically to the powerful arguments about legal aid for domestic child abduction. We agree that the unusual nature of these cases, including the terrible impact on those involved, means that legal aid is justified to find a child who has been unlawfully removed within the United Kingdom.

We think that our amendment, which has been worked up in the light of discussion with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, achieves this. One point that the noble and learned Baroness has asked the Government to put on the record, which I am happy to do, concerns what we mean by unlawful removal. Unlawful in this sense has a civil rather than a criminal meaning, so if a parent with contact tried to take a child permanently from the parent with residence, that would be unlawful.

I should add for the sake of completeness that our amendments also add recovery orders under Section 34 of the Family Law Act 1986 to a list of remedies for which civil legal aid is available in international child abduction cases as well. We can see the potential relevance of such an order where a child has been removed from the parent with residence but not yet from the United Kingdom, so the final international removal might still be prevented. Another small technical amendment relates to what are described as Section 27 applications. Legal aid will be made available for the narrow associated issue of registering an order made in one part of the United Kingdom in another part of the United Kingdom if it has a different legal jurisdiction. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Butler-Sloss Baroness Butler-Sloss Crossbench 5:30 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I should like to congratulate the Government and also express my very deep gratitude both to the Ministers in this House and the other House for achieving a very sensible solution. I am also particularly grateful to the government lawyers who have done an enormous amount of work both for me and for those behind me, and for taking the trouble to deal directly with the former chairman of the Family Law Bar Association and the chairman of the ILPA in relation to a later amendment. I really am very grateful.

However, I have a wish list-I might refer to it when the first government amendment that was accepted today enables a little more money to be provided-for two groups of left-behind parents. They are generally fathers, but sometimes they are mothers. One is preventing a threatened abduction in a family where both parents are still living together because neither parent has yet applied for a court order. The left-behind parent may be warned by another member of the family that the mother, generally, will take off with the child and that the father will never see the child again. That would require a prohibited steps order. I understand the thinking of the Government on why they will not deal with the matter now. However, I would like them to put it on the waiting list because it needs to be done at some stage.

The second is where the mother-it is generally the mother, but sometimes the father-removes a child in a situation where there is not yet a residence or other order. That internal parental abduction case is not covered, either. I would like to put both those matters on the wish list and I hope that one of these days the Government will be sympathetic to them. However, the work that has been done, and the recognition by the Government that this should be dealt with, is splendid news, and we are all extremely grateful.

Photo of Lord Beecham Lord Beecham Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Health)

My Lords, it is only a few weeks since the noble Lord, Lord McNally, described Lord Newton as a national treasure except when he voted against the Government. I intervened somewhat mischievously to say that that was what made him a national treasure. In fact, of course, he was a national treasure for a long time before that. I have good memories of working with him when he was a very approachable Minister and I was the leader of my local authority. I also had the pleasure of serving under him as a member of the Local Services Honours Committee, which he chaired with great care, always exhibiting great thoughtfulness and fairness. He was a man of great conviction and great courage, as he demonstrated fully in your Lordships' House for so many months. We will all miss him, as other noble Lords rightly said.

I turn to the amendments in this group and join the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in acknowledging that the Government have made significant improvements to the Bill and in congratulating the noble and learned Lord on doing that. I also congratulate the noble and learned Baroness on initiating these very welcome changes. I endorse what she said about further developments. Now, of course, the Government have the capacity to bring them about without primary legislation. The Opposition look forward to that in due course and certainly support the amendments in this group.

Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office)

My Lords, I start by associating myself with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about Lord Newton. I first encountered him in 1983 when I was a newly elected Member of Parliament and he was the Social Security Minister. I had a particular constituency issue and he could not have been more helpful or understanding. That was my experience of him as a Minister throughout my time in the other place.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, outlined her wish list. I think that she understands why the Government are unable to accept at the moment that legal aid should be available for these prevention matters. We find it difficult to see how the orders covered would be used in practice for prevention of removals in situations of urgency for which a case for funding is made, rather than for securing return after removal. If a child was in the process of being abducted and the situation was an emergency, legal aid would be available for the purpose of securing their return. It is more difficult to see why legal aid should be available to fund applications that are more contingent in nature, where there is no imminent danger of abduction or associated emergency but the measure is being sought on a precautionary basis. Very often those cases will be the stuff of general private family law proceedings, and we see the risk of such orders being sought for the benefit of funding in what are general disputes over where a child is to live and with whom-which, as we made clear in other areas, we will not fund.

Having said that, I welcome the co-operation that there has been, and very much appreciate the comments made by the noble and learned Baroness about the officials who worked on this and productively engaged with her and with those who advised her. I hope that what we brought forward meets the concerns raised. I have no doubt that we will be reminded of the wish list when we have had a bit more experience of the Act in operation. Again, I thank all those, both inside and outside the House, who worked toward a constructive solution on this matter.

Amendment 9 agreed.

Amendments 10 to 14

Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness

10: Schedule 1, page 145, line 30, at end insert-

"( ) an order under section 34 of that Act for the child's return;"

11: Schedule 1, page 145, line 32, at end insert-

"(1A) Civil legal services provided to an individual in relation to the following orders and applications where the individual is seeking to secure the return of a related child who has been unlawfully removed to a place in the United Kingdom-

(a) a prohibited steps order or specific issue order (as defined in section 8(1) of the Children Act 1989);

(b) an application under section 27 of the Family Law Act 1986 for registration of an order relating to the child;

(c) an order under section 33 of that Act for disclosure of the child's whereabouts;

(d) an order under section 34 of that Act for the child's return."

12: Schedule 1, page 145, line 34, leave out "Sub-paragraph (1) is" and insert "Sub-paragraphs (1) and (1A) are"

13: Schedule 1, page 149, leave out lines 1 and 2

14: Schedule 1, page 154, line 16, leave out from "Schedule" to "is" in line 18

Amendments 10 to 14 agreed.

Amendment 15

Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness

15: Schedule 1, page 160, line 2, at end insert-

"Victims of trafficking in human beings

33A (1) Civil legal services provided to an individual in relation to an application by the individual for leave to enter, or to remain in, the United Kingdom where-

(a) there has been a conclusive determination that the individual is a victim of trafficking in human beings, or

(b) there are reasonable grounds to believe that the individual is such a victim and there has not been a conclusive determination that the individual is not such a victim.

(2) Civil legal services provided in relation to a claim under employment law arising in connection with the exploitation of an individual who is a victim of trafficking in human beings, but only where-

(a) the services are provided to the individual, or

(b) the individual has died and the services are provided to the individual's personal representative.

(3) Civil legal services provided in relation to a claim for damages arising in connection with the trafficking or exploitation of an individual who is a victim of trafficking in human beings, but only where-

(a) the services are provided to the individual, or

(b) the individual has died and the services are provided to the individual's personal representative.

Exclusions

(4) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to the exclusions in Parts 2 and 3 of this Schedule.

(5) Sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) are subject to-

(a) the exclusions in Part 2 of this Schedule, with the exception of paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 of that Part, and

(b) the exclusion in Part 3 of this Schedule.

Definitions

(6) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) there are reasonable grounds to believe that an individual is a victim of trafficking in human beings if a competent authority has determined for the purposes of Article 10 of the Trafficking Convention (identification of victims) that there are such grounds.

(7) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) there is a conclusive determination that an individual is or is not a victim of trafficking in human beings when, on completion of the identification process required by Article 10 of the Trafficking Convention, a competent authority concludes that the individual is or is not such a victim.

(8) In this paragraph-

"competent authority" means a person who is a competent authority of the United Kingdom for the purposes of the Trafficking Convention;

"employment" means employment under a contract of employment or a contract personally to do work and references to "employers" and "employees" are to be interpreted accordingly;

"employment law" means an enactment or rule of law relating to employment, including in particular an enactment or rule of law conferring powers or imposing duties on employers, conferring rights on employees or otherwise regulating the relations between employers and employees;

"exploitation" means a form of exploitation described in section 4(4) of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc) Act 2004 (trafficking people for exploitation);

"personal representative", in relation to an individual who has died, means-

(a) a person responsible for administering the individual's estate under the law of England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, or

(b) a person who, under the law of another country or territory, has functions equivalent to those of administering the individual's estate;

"the Trafficking Convention" means the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings (done at Warsaw on 16 May 2005);

"trafficking in human beings" has the same meaning as in the Trafficking Convention."

Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office)

My Lords, Amendments 15 and 17 bring into the scope of legal aid cases in which the victims of human trafficking seek damages in either the civil courts or an employment tribunal. They would also provide legal aid to this group for immigration advice. The Government have always anticipated that legal aid would be available under the exceptional funding scheme for these damages claims, where such cases met the test for exceptional funding under what is now Clause 10 but which we came to know as Clause 9 during the earlier passage of the Bill. However, we listened to the concerns raised by noble Lords about whether in practice this would always be appropriate. I am pleased to say that we have responded positively to the concerns, and not least to the case made on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.

The House should be aware that paragraph 40 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 already provides for legal aid to be granted to victims of sexual offences to bring damages claims in relation to the offences. People who have been trafficked for the purposes of sexual exploitation and who wish to claim damages through the civil courts will already be able to get legal aid.

As I indicated on Report, we also considered whether legal aid should be available for the immigration aspects of trafficking. We listened to and accepted the arguments on this, given the particular vulnerabilities of this group of people. We plan to set out in regulations further provision on when it is appropriate for a victim of human trafficking to qualify for civil legal aid for immigration matters. Our intention is not to restrict numbers, and we will ensure that all victims for whom it is appropriate to provide advice will receive it. However, we cannot have a completely open-ended commitment for all immigration matters: otherwise, it is conceivable that victims of trafficking who, for example, apply for a student visa 15 years down the line will continue to qualify for legal aid for no good reason. The regulations will limit eligibility to a period relevant to the experience of being trafficked. We are discussing the most appropriate period of time, but we intend that it will be no less than an individual's discretionary leave to remain, which can be up to three years.

I am pleased that we have been able to have a constructive engagement and hope that these amendments address the concerns that have been raised. This amendment includes legal aid for immigration advice for victims of trafficking. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Butler-Sloss Baroness Butler-Sloss Crossbench

As the co-chairman of the All-Party Group on the Trafficking of Women and Children, I again congratulate the Government and express my gratitude not only to Ministers in this House and in another place but to the government lawyers and officials. The people who were so helpful on the previous set of amendments have been equally helpful on this, and I and those behind me are enormously obliged to them for the care with which they have gone through this and their ability to recognise, listen to, take on board and accept the points that have been made which are now reflected in this excellent amendment.

I wonder whether I might again produce a wish list for consideration at some later stage. There are four points that I would like to make. First, there are those who have been trafficked who do not know that they have been trafficked and will need advice about whether they have been trafficked. Secondly, there are implications for referral to the national referral mechanism. That point was discussed with the government lawyers. I understand why Ministers do not want to help those who do not refer themselves, but there will be a group or groups of people who will fall through the net. Thirdly, there are those who do not know whether they may have an entitlement to leave to remain other than by an asylum claim, such as discretionary leave to remain. That group will also not be covered. The fourth group is rather different. It is those who would wish to challenge a decision by the Home Office that they do not come within the NRM. Those are perhaps matters for another day. At the moment, those behind me and I are enormously grateful for what we have already got.

Photo of Baroness Hamwee Baroness Hamwee Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I, too, welcome these amendments and add my thanks to the officials who have dealt with them. My file of print-outs of e-mails last week is quite large. I thank the Minister as well. I know that his experience in Scotland means that he was already alert to the issues surrounding trafficking. I think the whole House owes the noble and learned Baroness enormous thanks for keeping us at it and for keeping at it herself.

The Minister mentioned conditions, and I understand the concern about possible overuse-abuse would be the wrong term here-of the category of victim of trafficking for immigration applications far in the future. During the discussions last week about what has ended up as these two amendments, there was a suggestion that there might be a reference to prescribed conditions and then a decision that what is now Clause 11 could cover matters, as the Minister said. Will he tell the House whether there are any other concerns that the Ministry has in mind at the moment-it may find others-apart from the time limits?

The noble and learned Baroness mentioned concerns about the workings of the national referral mechanism and time limits. Like her, I hope that that will be kept under review. I have two other areas of concern around this. If legal aid is not available until there has been a reasonable-grounds decision, will the Border Agency put the immigration case on hold? In the mean time, what happens if the individual is in detention or is without housing and food? At the previous stage of the Bill, I referred to the complex needs of trafficked people and mentioned housing and benefits. Immigration is often the gateway to them. Article 12 of the convention refers specifically to accommodation and generally to subsistence, and I suspect the Government would prefer to be clear about this rather than find themselves with claims under what is now Clause 10. The importance of identifying victims of trafficking is a moral matter, but it is also important because of their role in detecting and prosecuting traffickers, and it may take some time for a victim to be identified or to self-identify, so I am adding to the list of considerations. The Government have said that they will keep matters under review and they now have a mechanism to do so. Therefore, I welcome the amendment, although there may still be work to be done.

Photo of Baroness Gale Baroness Gale Opposition Whip (Lords) 5:45 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I am pleased that the Government have brought forward these amendments that give the victims of human trafficking the same support as that provided for the victims of sexual exploitation, as set out in Schedule 1. There is support around the House today for these government amendments and we, too, support them. They will make sure that the victims of human trafficking will be treated fairly and given the support that they need. The Minister has listened to your Lordships' House and responded to the arguments which were so well rehearsed by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on Second Reading, in Committee and at Report in trying to convince the Minister of the need for these amendments. I am sure that the Minister will listen to the wish list as well as he has to the other arguments put before him. He promised that he would address these matters and we are all grateful that he has tabled these amendments. We fully support them.

Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office)

I am grateful for the general welcome that has been given to the amendments, and indeed for the work that has gone in behind the scenes to get us to where we are today. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has indicated that she will continue, and that she has a further wish list. The fourth point in her wish list was to find out how to challenge a decision of the national referral mechanism. I am advised that that would be done by way of judicial review, which is within the scope of legal aid.

My noble friend Lady Hamwee raised more detailed questions about the operation of the provision. I will look at those matters and try to write to her with an answer. She also asked whether there are any plans to limit immigration legal aid in this context, apart from the time limits under regulations. The answer is that there are currently no plans to do so. In referring to the progress of these amendments and this issue through your Lordships' House, my noble friend also remarked that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has kept at it. I have no doubt that, even after this legislation becomes law, those who take a keen interest in the serious-appalling-issue of the abuse of individuals will keep a watchful eye on the issue and keep at it, and I am sure that the Government will certainly be made aware of any concerns that arise. On that basis, I hope that the House will agree to the amendment.

Amendment 15 agreed.

Amendment 16

Moved by Lord Best

16: Schedule 1, page 160, line 6, at end insert-

"( ) Civil legal services provided for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) include legal advice and assistance in respect of that individual's financial circumstances, including any eligibility for housing benefits, where those circumstances have led or directly contributed to the relevant court order for sale or possession, or eviction."

Photo of Lord Best Lord Best Crossbench

My Lords, Amendment 16 consolidates earlier amendments that I have brought before your Lordships to keep within the scope of legal aid the legal advice and representation that can prevent homelessness. I am now trying one last time to convince the Government that it would be a costly mistake to remove key components of this work from the scope of legal aid. These are the components of the current legal assistance, including negotiation on welfare benefit matters, that prevent homelessness by addressing the cause of the arrears which otherwise lead to a household losing their home.

This kind of work currently accounts for 20 per cent to 25 per cent of the funding for cases where the home is at risk. Removing the opportunity for legal aid to embrace these matters is likely to make the remaining 75 per cent to 80 per cent of expenditure far less effective. Without this amendment it will not be possible to continue to support a client by handling negotiations with housing benefit officers at the local authority or those at the Department for Work and Pensions dealing with support for mortgage interest. If such representation can only happen in the context of the courtroom, the invaluable work in sorting out the complexities of the benefit system prior to the matter reaching the courts cannot continue.

Even more frustratingly, where a case is adjourned for four weeks-as it often is-it will not be possible to use the time to straighten out the issues by expert negotiation with the relevant officials on behalf of the household concerned. When the matter returns to the court four weeks later, none of the work that currently goes on will have been accomplished. The only way to get the benefit officials into a dialogue at that stage would be to issue witness summonses to bring those officers to the court, taking them away from their other work, probably for the day. This is a very inefficient way of proceeding, wasting the time of officers and achieving a much less satisfactory dialogue. The chances of saving a family from the horrors of homelessness are much reduced, all because the change in legal aid funding stops the matter being resolved during the adjournment.

I promised the Minister that I would study his comments on Report with care. I have noted that,

"legal aid would be available on reaching agreement with a landlord to delay threatened possession action pending the resolution of a welfare benefits issue", but not to take the action that resolves that welfare benefits issue. The Minister made clear that,

"legal aid could be used to argue for an adjournment", so that the individual could,

"make the necessary payments if the benefits dispute is resolved in their favour"-[Hansard, 12/2/12; col. 103]- and they now have the money due to them. Again, it is clear that help in actually reaching that position and resolving the benefits dispute will not be available.

The Minister explained that "general advice" will be available from various sources but he underlined the point that legal aid will not be available to negotiate on welfare benefit issues on behalf of a client. I cannot believe that this is a sensible approach, not least at this time of huge changes to the housing benefit system, which will inevitably mean mistakes by the administrators that will require technical experts to unearth and sort out. The value of this legal aid work will become of even greater importance in the future with the transition of benefit support for housing costs to the Department for Work and Pensions from local authorities, and a whole new system of universal credit, which undoubtedly will take some time to bed down.

I was grateful for the Minister's clarifications but I fear they confirm the essence of the problem with this part of the Bill. Restricting the scope of legal aid to exclude assistance with these matters will clog up the courts with more and longer cases, and more adjournments, that could and should have been handled outside the courtroom. There will be costs to the state from an inevitable increase in the numbers who become homeless for lack of the legal assistance that could have sorted out the problem. Worst of all, there will be the injustice of people losing their homes unfairly or unnecessarily.

I hope that this amendment, which compresses and consolidates our earlier discussions on this matter, will prove acceptable even at this late stage. I dedicate it to a man who became a mentor and hero for me, Lord Newton of Braintree. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Hollis of Heigham Baroness Hollis of Heigham Labour

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, in his Amendment 16. Like him, I am a refugee from the Welfare Reform Act and, like him, I am deeply concerned that the new system of universal credit, which I strongly support, is coming together with huge cuts in housing benefit. This will produce uncertainty and complexity at the same time as withdrawing legal aid-unless the Commons supports the amendment previously passed by your Lordships' House and unless the House supports the noble Lord, Lord Best, today.

To introduce a new system, with the implications for the tenants of my housing association of losing up to £1 million a year, means that some will face homelessness, eviction and bed and breakfast accommodation, or alternatively will flood the tribunals and the courts system. To withdraw legal aid at the time of introducing these cuts and changes to housing benefit, as well as universal credit, creates a perfect storm that no Government should wish to whirl up. I hope very much that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, will respond positively to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best.

Photo of Lord Beecham Lord Beecham Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Health)

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Hollis and, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Best, in moving this amendment. They have made a very powerful case, which was rehearsed on Report. At that time, I quoted Shelter and the Nottingham Law Centre, two separate organisations from the not-for-profit sector, which strongly urged the Government to change their position on this. They are the organisations that provide legal help and advice, not necessarily extending to court proceedings, on the benefits side as well as the remainder of the housing issue-some of which, in fairness, the Government are including within scope.

This is a classic case, as my noble friend has implied, where there is a potential modest saving to the Ministry of Justice budget but a potential extra cost to other departments. If homelessness ensues, particularly where children are involved, very substantial costs are imposed on the budgets of the local authority, and maybe also on the Department for Work and Pensions, which in certain circumstances may be devolved; for example, special needs payments or crisis loans, which a family on the streets may clearly require.

In this context, cost is a consideration which, if anything, tells against the Government's proposals rather than the other way round. I hope that the Government will recognise the strength of arguments from those dealing with this directly-not from the legal profession in this case, but from the advice sector-and provide for the possibility of timely advice being given to avoid worse consequences for the individuals and their families and, for that matter, the public purse. I hope that the Minister will reconsider the position the Government have hitherto adopted.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Best, acknowledge that this is one more time on which we have discussed these matters. We had detailed discussions in Committee and on Report. Amendment 16 is intended to bring into the scope of legal aid advice and assistance in relation to an individual's financial situation, such as debt and housing-related welfare benefits issues, where they are linked to the loss or threatened loss of the individual's home under paragraph 34 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. The House will be well aware that our proposals ensure that legal aid continues to be available to an individual in relation to the immediate risk of losing their home, through possession or eviction. This includes cases where the underlying cause is a debt or welfare benefits issue.

It may reassure noble Lords if I reiterate a few brief examples of where legal aid will be available under the loss-of-home provisions in paragraph 34 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. First, legal aid will continue to be available before a case is brought to court. It will be available where possession or eviction action is contemplated. Where an individual receives a letter which threatens possession action, legal aid will be available at that point. For example, legal aid will remain available to a person threatened with possession action for mortgage arrears to negotiate with their mortgage lender.

In the context of welfare benefits, it is important to recognise that, where a landlord threatens their tenant with possession proceedings, legal aid would be available to the tenant to reach agreement with a landlord to delay the possession action pending the resolution of the welfare benefits issue. If possession proceedings are issued, legal aid will be available to an individual to argue for an adjournment-for example, if they are likely to be able to make the necessary payments if an underlying benefits dispute is resolved in their favour. Where an individual loses a welfare benefits appeal and subsequently faces possession action for rent or mortgage arrears, legal aid will be available in relation to that action. We will also retain legal aid provision for judicial reviews about welfare benefits decisions and for welfare benefits matters which relate to a contravention of the Equality Act 2010.

This amendment would go much wider and would generally provide for legally aided advice and assistance on the financial circumstances of an individual-such as for underlying debt or welfare benefits issues-where these are linked to loss of home. This would run contrary to our approach. At a time when the country is recovering from a genuine fiscal crisis we need to focus limited resources on the highest priority matters. As I have said before, we cannot agree that legally aided advice and assistance should be generally available in relation to a person's financial circumstances-such as for debt or welfare benefits issues-in the situations covered by the amendment.

There is no doubt that people, including those in potential loss-of-home situations, find advice useful in areas such as debt and welfare benefits. But we are firmly of the view that what those affected often need is practical advice rather than legal advice funded by legal aid. Individuals who have debt problems often need advice on managing their finances better and on practical measures to resolve their situation, and can access that advice through a range of specialist organisations. It will come as no surprise to the House to hear me reiterate that the Government greatly value the not-for-profit sector and the good-quality free advice which it provides to people in their communities on these sorts of matters.

My department is working closely with the DWP to improve the quality and effectiveness of initial decision-making in applications for social security, reconsideration within the DWP and the system of subsequent tribunal appeals. This work should make it easier for claimants to receive the right benefit provision. Moreover, welfare benefits appeals matters are resolved through a tribunal which is designed to be accessible without legal assistance, and general advice on welfare benefits is available from a number of sources.

I know that this issue has been raised at every stage. After these debates, we do not just close the book and not take any notice. We go back to the department and the Ministers and advisers have a discussion. There is also a discussion about the issues raised with other departments. This is not a decision taken lightly but we believe that the loss-of-home proposals in the Bill get the balance right in terms of focusing limited public funds for legal advice and assistance in the most appropriate circumstances. We have listened to the appeals made by the noble Lord and considered them. At this point, we cannot agree with them. I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

Photo of Lord Best Lord Best Crossbench

I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken. I am also grateful to my noble and right reverend friend Lord Harries of Pentregarth, who put his name to this amendment but has had to leave us. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for talking of the perfect storm at a time of housing benefit change when advice will be incredibly important to people. Things will change dramatically on the benefit front and mistakes will be made by the officials concerned. Experts will be needed for support and assistance. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who reminded us that Shelter, Citizens Advice and such bodies are behind this amendment rather than the lawyers. He also mentioned the extra costs that homelessness always brings.

This is a cost-saving amendment. The noble Lord is right that much remains within scope. Some 75 per cent to 80 per cent of the work currently being done remains within scope, which is great, but a lot of that is wasted if the remaining 20 per cent to 25 per cent is cut out. Where possession is threatened is the bit where the argument can be taken up with the administrators, the housing benefits officers. With their negotiating skills and expertise, they can fix it and sort it. Cutting that out renders a lot of the rest of the expenditure much less worth while.

Before the hour gets any later and without further ado, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 16

Contents 199; Not-Contents 224.

Amendment 16 disagreed.

Division number 4 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 197 Members of the House of Lords

No: 222 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Amendments 17 and 18

Moved by Lord McNally

17: Schedule 1, page 169, line 15, leave out "or 31" and insert ", 31 or 33A(1)"

18: Schedule 1, page 170, leave out lines 5 to 11

Amendments 17 and 18 agreed.

Clause 10 : Exceptional cases

Amendment 19

Moved by Lord Pannick

19: Clause 10, page 7, line 5, at end insert ", or

(c) that-

(i) it is necessary to make the services available to the individual under this Part to prevent specific injustice in a particular case; and

(ii) it is appropriate to do so, in order to prevent such injustice, from the funds (if any) which the Lord Chancellor in his discretion makes available to the Director for the purposes of this paragraph."

Photo of Lord Pannick Lord Pannick Crossbench 6:18 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, this amendment is in my name and in the names of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Woolf, and the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton. Its purpose is simple-to implement more effectively the Government's proposal to include an exceptional cases category for legal aid as set out in Clause 10. The problem which this amendment seeks to address is that Clause 10 is too narrowly drafted and will prevent the very flexibility that it is designed to provide. That is because the exceptional cases category set out in the clause applies only if the refusal of legal aid would amount to a breach of rights under the European Convention on Human Rights or would create a risk of doing so.

The difficulty, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, stated when moving his amendment at the Report stage, is that it is inevitable that:

"All of a sudden a case will obviously require, in the interests of justice, to be supported by legal aid because of the wider interest that is involved".-[Hansard, 12/3/12; col. 119.]

The case may concern a difficult and important question of statutory interpretation in the Court of Appeal or in the Supreme Court in a type of case generally excluded from the scope of legal aid. This amendment would confer a power on the director of legal aid to fund litigation if both of two conditions are satisfied. The first condition is that the director considers that funding the litigation is necessary-a strong term-to avoid injustice. I have adopted in the amendment the suggestion made in Committee by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that the discretion should be defined not as a power to promote justice, but as a power to avoid specific injustice, a much narrower concept. The noble and learned Lord has asked me to express to the House his apologies for not being able to be here today.

The second condition which would need to be satisfied before the power could be exercised by the director is that the director considers that the case is an appropriate one for use of the funds, if any, made available for this purpose by the Lord Chancellor. That wording is designed to ensure that funding remains entirely within the discretion of the Lord Chancellor. The amendment, I emphasise, does not require additional funds to be found. The amendment leaves it to the Lord Chancellor to decide what funds, if any, to provide for this purpose.

If then the Lord Chancellor is not required to provide funds for this exceptional category of cases, your Lordships will wish to know what is the purpose of the amendment. The answer is that even if the Lord Chancellor were to say that no money is currently available for this exceptional category of cases-I hope that that would not be the case-it is vital to include a discretion in the Bill so that a statutory power exists to fund exceptional cases which can be exercised with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor when the economy improves.

Noble Lords should not approve a Bill confining legal aid in the manner proposed by the Government without including in it a provision which at least allows the Lord Chancellor, in his discretion, to provide some funding for the exceptional cases about which I am concerned. Parliament may not have a chance to address legal aid issues again for some time. I very much hope that even at this late stage the Minister will be able to accept the amendment, which confers power on the Lord Chancellor to allow funding for exceptional cases but imposes no duty on him to do so. I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Hart of Chilton Lord Hart of Chilton Labour

I support the amendment, which is also in my name. Interested bodies such as Citizens Advice, Justice for All and the Law Society have all pointed out that the Government's exceptional funding safety net does not stretch wide enough for the reasons so clearly given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I emphasise that the amendment of itself imposes no extra financial burden on the Lord Chancellor; it simply provides an opportunity for a discretion to be exercised if it is necessary-I emphasise the word "necessary"-to prevent a specific injustice occurring. If it was decided to use this power, the costs would be provided from discretionary funds made available to the director by the Lord Chancellor.

The amendment should be seen as a simple, practical and positive act of assistance to the Government, who, if they accept it, will have the flexibility to act in the circumstances provided for. Legislative opportunities for any Government are few and far between. In my view, this opportunity should be seized and the helpful amendment accepted.

Photo of Lord Woolf Lord Woolf Crossbench

My Lords, in the courts, many cases have three judges involved in determining what should be the outcome. If one judge gives a judgment on the provision which the other two judges think is totally convincing and where they have nothing useful to add, they just say, "I agree". I agree with the speeches that have been made in support of the amendment.

Photo of Lord Bach Lord Bach Shadow Spokesperson (Justice)

My Lords, we support the amendment. It could not be more cautiously and moderately phrased and worded and the Government would be wise to accept it.

Photo of Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lords Spokesperson (Attorney General's Office), Lords Spokesperson (Wales Office), The Advocate-General for Scotland, Lords Spokesperson (Scotland Office)

My Lords, the House had the opportunity to debate issues similar to those raised in the amendment during detailed discussions in Committee and on Report. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, indicated, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern came up with the phrase "in the interests of justice to prevent injustice", which I said at the time had a certain seductive charm and that I would think about it. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, moved the amendment and argued his case with seductive charm, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hart. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, was very much to the point, as was, very briefly, the noble Lord, Lord Bach.

I can assure the House that we have thought about these points. The Government believe it is right that there should be an exceptional funding scheme to provide an essential safety net for the protection of an individual's fundamental rights of access to justice, and Clause 10 achieves this important end. It will be necessary to provide services to an individual under Clause 10(3)(a), where a failure to provide some measure of legal aid would, for example, clearly amount to a breach of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees an individual's right to a fair trial and access to the courts.

As has been said on a number of occasions when we have debated exceptional funding determinations under what was Clause 9 but is now Clause 10(3), they will be made in accordance with the factors that the domestic courts and the European Court of Human Rights have held to be relevant in determining whether publicly funded legal assistance must be provided in an individual case.

In considering whether legal aid should be provided in an individual case engaging Article 6, the director will need to take into account, for example, the importance of the issues to the individual concerned and the nature of the rights at stake; the complexity of the case; the capacity of the individuals to represent themselves effectively; and the alternative means of securing access to justice.

It is not lost on me that the noble and noble and learned Lords who tabled the amendment have carefully mirrored the existing formulation of the clause in their proposed addition. I thank, particularly, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for triggering this discussion and this line of thought in Committee. I again assure the House that I have considered the alternative formulation carefully. However, as I said on Report, we are satisfied that the provision that the Bill currently makes in respect of excluded cases is both appropriate and sufficient.

First, it is extremely important to make the point that, under the existing draft of the clause, the director will be able to provide funding for cases to prevent a specific injustice in so far as that injustice also amounts to a breach of the European convention or relevant European Union law. The Government believe that it is more appropriate to use this legal benchmark as a means of determining whether an applicant would suffer injustice. Article 6, in particular, provides a suitably serious threshold, guaranteeing the right to a fair trial and an individual's right of access to the court.

Obviously, I cannot provide a blanket guarantee that every matter that noble Lords would consider an injustice would be covered by our formulation of this clause. However, at this point, I take the House back to the fundamental structure and architecture of the changes that we are making to the general legal aid scheme. We have said on many occasions that these reforms are required to create a fair, balanced and sustainable legal aid system. We have taken into account the importance of the issue, the litigant's ability to present his or her own case-including their vulnerability -the availability of alternative sources of funding, and the availability of other routes to resolution. As noble Lords know, we have used these factors to prioritise funding so that civil legal aid will be available in the highest priority cases: for example where a person's life or liberty is at stake, they are at risk of serious physical harm or immediate loss of their home, or children may be taken into care.

I recognise and appreciate that the second limb of the carefully crafted amendment, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has indicated, goes some way to meeting concerns that were expressed on Report about the potential breadth of such an amendment. Under the proposal, the director will only be able to use such funds as the Lord Chancellor decides to make available for the purpose of this subsection. However, I ask your Lordships to reflect on the fact that this approach would create a rather peculiar arrangement that would be at odds with the safeguards concerning the independence of the director, which we believe are fundamental to our proposals and which we have strengthened in response to valuable debates that have been held throughout the Bill's passage.

I accept and recognise that the motivation is to give some leeway or discretion to the Lord Chancellor. The noble Lord, Lord Hart, said it would help the Government. Nevertheless, giving the Lord Chancellor a discretionary fund that he could allocate to the director at the time of his choice would risk politicising decision-making and eroding the clear boundaries that this statute seeks to create between the Lord Chancellor and the director.

For example, let us envisage a scenario in which the director wishes to make funding available for a particular case but there are no funds available for him to do so. What is he meant to do in these circumstances? Would it be appropriate for the director to have to enter into discussions with the Lord Chancellor about the provision of funding for a particular case? Indeed, would it be permissible under the Bill, given that Clause 4(4) explicitly prohibits the Lord Chancellor from giving directions or guidance to the director in relation to individual cases? It is difficult to see how the Lord Chancellor could meaningfully give his assent to the provision of such funds without breaking the spirit-if not the letter-of that prohibition. Clause 4(4) guarantees the objectivity of the decision-making process for both in-scope and excluded cases, and is there to serve as a safeguard against political interference in the making of any individual exceptional funding decisions in the future. We do not wish to put that at risk by establishing a discretionary funding stream, as envisaged in this amendment.

If we accept this amendment, we risk undermining not only the decision-making safeguards that the Bill creates but the general scope of our reforms of civil legal aid. These are important points, which weigh in the balance against this amendment. For the reasons given, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Photo of Lord Pannick Lord Pannick Crossbench 6:30 pm, 27th March 2012

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his consideration of this matter and to other noble Lords who have spoken. The noble and learned Lord raised two points, as I understood him. His first concern was that this amendment would somehow politicise the functions of the director. It would not. The Lord Chancellor would remain responsible for funding questions and would decide whether it was appropriate to provide additional funding. It would be entirely a matter for the director to decide on the allocation of such funding, if any. There is no question of any politicisation of these responsibilities.

The noble and learned Lord also suggested that it was satisfactory for the exceptional cases category to be confined to those cases in which an issue arises pursuant to the European Convention on Human Rights. In my view, that is not adequate. The exceptional cases category should be sufficiently broad to cover exceptional cases whether or not an issue is engaged under the European convention.

I suggest to noble Lords that there is no basis for resisting this amendment. The Government agree that there should be an exceptional cases category-and they are right. This amendment would ensure that the exceptional cases category is sufficiently broad to enable the director to deal with exceptional cases, if and when the Lord Chancellor provides funding. This amendment imposes no duty whatever on the Lord Chancellor and requires no funding to be provided. It is purely permissive, and I invite noble Lords to support it on that basis. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 19

Contents 201; Not-Contents 201.

Amendment 19 disagreed.

Division number 5 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 199 Members of the House of Lords

No: 199 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Clause 21 : Financial resources

Amendment 20

Moved by Lord McNally

20: Clause 21, page 16, line 40, leave out "13 or"

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords 6:49 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, the House will recall that my noble friend Lord Macdonald was most persuasive in Committee so that during Report a government amendment was agreed that removed the power to introduce means testing and make regulations setting criteria for determinations in relation to advice and assistance for individuals in custody. Amendment 20 is a government amendment that removes references to determinations under Clause 13, on police station advice and assistance, from Clause 21, which concerns financial resources. This is a consequential amendment in light of the Government's amendment accepted on Report to remove the power to means test police station advice and assistance. This technical amendment is required to remove from Clause 21 the reference to regulations under Clause 13. I beg to move.

Amendment 20 agreed.

Amendment 21

Moved by Baroness Coussins

21: Before Clause 44, insert the following new Clause-

"Exception for international human rights cases

The changes made by sections 46, 48 and 49 of this Act do not apply in relation to proceedings which include a claim for damages for international human rights cases as defined in section 58(C)(2B) (Recovery of insurance premiums by way of costs) of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990, as inserted by section 48 of this Act."

Photo of Baroness Coussins Baroness Coussins Crossbench

My Lords, the other amendments in the group are clearly consequential, in the case of Amendments 22, 23 and 26, and directly consequential, in the case of Amendment 27. These amendments are designed to preserve the status quo in our justice system for victims of international corporate human rights abuse. I am very grateful to the Minister for the further meetings he has had with me and with others since Report, and for the correspondence we have had. I readily knowledge that he wants to achieve the same things as do I and my co-signatories to these amendments, who are from all sides of the House. Indeed, I had very much been hoping that at this stage we would be announcing an agreement of some sort, and I am very disappointed that this has not turned out to be the case. I am afraid that I have not even been able to persuade the Minister to see it as acceptable to put corporate human rights abuses on the same footing as clinical negligence, as Amendment 27 would do.

I do not believe that the Government have adequately understood the impact of the Rome II regulations, which are binding on the UK as an EU member state, let alone the additional restraint and restrictions that this Bill would provide. Figures to illustrate this are very hard to come by, because of the small number of cases of this sort that have been settled over the past decade, so many have included a confidentiality agreement as part of the settlement.

However, I will illustrate the impact of the Rome II regulations with one brief example that is in the public domain: the Trafigura case, which is probably also the most well-known case, where toxic waste was dumped on a large community in the Côte d'Ivoire. There were 30,000 claimants in this case, who shared £30 million in damages-£1,000 per head. It is estimated that under the Rome II regulations, the damages would have shrunk to £6 million, making it £200 a head. Yet the "after the event" insurance premium would still have cost over £9 million. If £200 a head seems a very small amount of compensation for loss and damage to life, homes, health and community, how much less compensation would there be under the provisions of this Bill? It makes it far too costly and risky to bring the cases in the first place.

It is a question of straightforward arithmetic, added to which there is no cost to the taxpayer whatever as a result of these amendments. We have a very good system in place already, which is the envy of many other countries in the world that are looking to us to build their own system to deal with international corporate human rights cases. I appeal to the Minister even now to accept my amendments, but if he cannot then I hope that the House will support me in trying to prevent the clock being turned back for poor and vulnerable victims of human rights injustices at the hands of UK companies, which should remain accountable in practice as well as in theory. I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Howarth of Newport Lord Howarth of Newport Labour

My Lords, if the Government think it appropriate that the private disputes of Russian oligarchs should be settled in our courts, how much more appropriate is it that poor people in countries such as the Côte d'Ivoire, who have been treated utterly disgracefully by a large international corporation, should also be able to seek remedy in the British courts? Should we not be proud to make that a possibility?

Photo of Lord Judd Lord Judd Labour

My Lords, the noble Baroness is to be congratulated on having persevered so well and firmly with this cause, right up to Third Reading. I remember in my early days as director of Oxfam that I was in north-west Brazil where, having travelled overnight in a rickety bus, I arrived in this very poor town. Around the tower of the church, there was a banner in Portuguese which said, "Prison bars will not prevent the truth escaping". When I, together with the field director, probed to try to find out what had happened and what was wrong, evidently a greedy land grabber had been bribing the judge with cattle and the judge had repeatedly ordered these people off their land. They had no social insurance-nothing. They had no means of surviving but to go on farming the land they traditionally farmed. In the end, because they resisted, he threw them and the local secretary of the peasants' association into prison for good measure.

I had gone with my colleague to discuss agriculture-wells, tools, seed and irrigation-but what became very clear was that these people were preoccupied totally with justice. They wanted to have some resources to be able to go to the regional court and put their case before it. I can remember us sitting over some beer and doing some rough calculations, and reckoning that we could find a bit of money to help support them to go off to the regional court. One of my best moments in those formative years as director of Oxfam was when I heard at headquarters in Oxford that having taken their case before the regional court, the local judge was in prison and they were back on their land.

I tell this story because I have repeatedly found in my work with the Third World that what holds people back is a lack of justice and fairness, and what they are wanting is a fair crack of the whip. If this is true within the context of their own societies, when we move into a globalised society-with the vast power of the biggest international companies and the almost limitless resources that they have at their disposal for legal undertakings, cases and the rest-the case becomes even more obvious. I am very unhappy with this whole Bill, and have been from the beginning, because it is about limiting access to justice when surely a cause in a civilised society is to increase access to justice. If we have a serious commitment to the people of the Third World, as the Government keep demonstrating that they want to have, nothing is more important than ensuring that they can get access to justice. I really will be very despairing if the Government, even at this 11th hour, cannot respond to what the noble Baroness has argued.

Photo of Lord Thomas of Gresford Lord Thomas of Gresford Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I have huge sympathy with the claimants in the Trafigura case, who received £30 million in damages, and if I thought that access to justice for people in their position were being blocked by this Bill I would be entirely with the noble Baroness. Unfortunately, the costs in that case were £100 million, reduced on taxation to £40 million. I do not feel particularly proud of a legal system which produces such a disparity between the damages that were actually received by the claimants and the lawyers who acted on their behalf.

Photo of Lord Brennan Lord Brennan Labour 7:00 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, the topic under debate appears to involve general agreement that this class of case is a proper one to be brought in the courts of this country. The critical question therefore is: is it financially possible to bring such a case under the proposed reforms in this Bill? These are long cases, which take years, and they are complex and very expensive. They involve defendants with economic might who are prepared to take on the claimants remorselessly. I remind the House that the Trafigura case actually reached the stage where this Parliament was debating whether that company's obtaining of a super-injunction meant that Parliament could no longer debate the issues raised by the case. That is might.

The idea that such a case can readily be brought and financed under these reforms is one with which no one whom I know in the law agrees. I have been involved in four of these 10 or 12 cases in the past decade and they have all involved millions of pounds on both sides. In Trafigura, the published costs of the defendants without a trial were £14 million. I await with interest to hear from the Minister any mathematics or economic analysis that explains to this country how lawyers here under these new arrangements-a reduced success fee and no "after the event" insurance-could fund such a case. Everyone I speak to says, frankly, that it is impossible.

If the Minister comes forward with some mathematics that are realistic and not ethereal, and if he gives us financial analysis that is not far distant from reality, the House might still be persuaded. As yet, no one in public has produced such material. The result is that we expect the developing world to open its doors to our great companies to make large profits for the benefit of our country but, when those investments produce adverse consequences, we in this country close our doors of justice to the people who have suffered. That cannot be acceptable, and the Government should think again.

Photo of Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Shadow Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Opposition Whip (Lords), Shadow Spokesperson (Culture, Media and Sport)

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, has introduced this group of amendments with her customary fluency and passion, and she has been joined by other speakers who have made the case well. As has been pointed out, this measure risks damage to the UK's reputation for justice to those people who have suffered damage to their human rights caused by companies based in the United Kingdom. I am sure that none of us wishes to see that happen.

We have support from all around the House, and we are grateful to those who have joined in on these amendments. The settled view of your Lordships' House is clearly that there is a real danger that, if this Bill goes through in its present form, the changes that it makes to the way in which international human rights cases are to operate, combined with the restricted damages that the Rome II regulations impose on the level of damages that can be awarded to claimants, will make it impossible for such cases to be mounted in the UK in future.

As the House has heard, several very important independent charities have been lobbying hard on this issue. Several meetings have been held with the Minister and correspondence has been exchanged. We hoped that an accommodation could be reached, and we went to see him yesterday in the hope that that might be possible. He e-mailed us today to say that he could not accept our amendments.

It is clear to me that while on the one hand the Government do not want to be responsible for preventing these cases continuing in future, they have not so far been convinced that it is highly probable that they will occur in future. Why is that? The arithmetic, as has been said, is very clear. We seem to be in a situation where the department's overriding concern that the architecture of the Bill should be retained is working here against good legislation. What other arguments can there possibly be? We have heard from those directly involved in these cases and we know what the figures are. It is clear that the facts outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and my noble friend Lord Brennan that the Government are wrong. I hope that when the time comes the noble Baroness will test the opinion of the House, and we will be supporting her in the Lobby.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

My Lords, I confirm that we have been in regular discussions about these amendments, and I regret that I am not able to accept them today.

There have been a number of comments about costs and indeed about the Trafigura case. What strikes me most about that case is that the £30 million that was won in damages worked out at about £1,000 per victim-against, as has already been accepted, legal costs that at one time, until they were beaten down, were running at £100 million. To me, that is an obscene system.

With regard to the reforms that we brought forward, we have said that we believe CFAs will continue. We are also introducing damages-based agreements. Far from welcoming them, though, the CBI and others worry that those may well provide funding in this area. So, it is not that the Government are opposed to bringing companies to account for their behaviour. I just do not believe in the rather broad claims by the noble Lords, Lord Brennan and Lord Judd, that this issue will dramatically affect the lives of people in developing countries. There are other areas of policy that are going to do much more than that.

I make clear that the Government strongly support claims arising from allegations of corporate harm in developing countries being brought, and we support the protection of damages for personal injury. Where we disagree with the supporters of the amendment is that we do not believe that our plans would prevent such cases being brought or ultimately damage the ability of NGOs and others to hold big business to account.

An exception along the lines proposed is in our view neither necessary nor justified. It is not necessary because reformed "no win no fee" arrangements will still allow cases to be brought. It is not justified because it would undermine the wider rationale for the Jackson reforms in Part 2 of the Bill, which should apply across civil litigation without any exceptions. In doing so, it would introduce unfairness between different types of claimant.

We recognise, however, that, following the Rome II regulations, damages in these cases can be relatively low, and they will not be subject to the 10 per cent increase available for other claims. The costs awarded can nevertheless be extremely high, as was demonstrated by the Trafigura case. The question is whether any exception should be made for these cases either on a wider basis, as proposed in Amendments 21, 22, 23 and 26, or on a narrower basis, as proposed in Amendment 27. I concede that in putting forward Amendment 27, the movers tried to put forward a narrow-based solution.

The Government have listened to this debate and those that went before, and we have reflected carefully on the points raised. We have held many meetings with interested stakeholders and NGOs over the past months, and the Government are fully aware of the strength of feeling on this issue. I have looked again at the evidence that has been presented, including reports by Professor Rachael Mulheron of the University of London and Mr Smith of First Assist. Both reports make the general case for recoverable success fees and insurance premiums to continue in these cases, but they do not present any figures showing why these cases could not be brought in future. During our discussions with the NGOs we have asked for such evidence but it has not been forthcoming, even though we have asked them for more detailed figures.

The truth is that the available evidence shows that these cases, though few in number-about 10 in a decade-have historically been highly profitable for the legal firms involved. Although under our plans the margins available would be reduced, they are still likely to remain attractive. I remind noble Lords of the sums involved. Since the previous Government introduced the recoverability of success fees and insurance premiums in 2000, we know that there have been only around 10 of these cases, mainly undertaken by a single firm of solicitors. Most of these cases have succeeded or settled, but some claims have been pursued in which costs were ultimately not recovered. The figures suggest that in those cases that were not pursued to trial, there were disbursements of some £131,000 and legal costs in the region of £1.4 million. I appreciate that those figures will not cover all costs in all cases but they should be a fair ball-park indication. £1.4 million sounds like a lot of money for a firm to bear in what are effectively losses on a case not pursued and won until the substantial sums that have been received in success fees are considered. We know that in the case of Trafigura alone, success fees-intended to cover the costs in lost cases-of around £29 million were allowed by the Court of Appeal. Those figures amount to a net gain for claimant lawyers from these cases over the past decade of more than £27 million from the success fees for Trafigura alone. That does not include all the success fees in the other successful cases.

These figures speak for themselves. They cast all emotion aside and demonstrate the substantial gains in legal costs from these cases and the proportionately much lower costs expended. When the ratio of earnings to losses is more than 10:1, the current system can, to put it mildly, bear some reform. Therefore, while I recognise that claims against multinationals can be complex, the changes that we are making to the CFA regime will not prevent these cases being brought in the future. They can still be brought but the costs will be more proportionate. As Lord Justice Jackson recognised, a greater incentive for claimants' lawyers to work more smartly is needed, so that they incur only costs that are justified when bringing a claim, rather than allowing costs to escalate.

It is worth pointing out, as I have previously in the House, the criticism by the Court of Appeal of the costs claimed by the claimants in the Trafigura case. In that case, the court itself questioned whether some of the work undertaken by the claimants' lawyers was necessary. It criticised them for seeking costs of £100 million in a case that resulted in payment of £30 million in damages. It is not for me to question the conduct of those involved, but it needs to be borne in mind when looking at the extraordinary costs claimed in that case alone. I should add-again, as I have pointed out to the House previously-that in that case, the defendant's costs were approximately £14 million, which is around one-seventh of the costs claimed by the claimants.

I turn now to Amendment 27, which seeks to allow for the recoverability of "after the event" insurance premiums to pay adverse legal costs, including expert fees and other disbursements. In doing so, the amendment goes much wider than just the cost of funding the expert reports for which we have provided in the special situation of clinical negligence cases. The amendment would potentially cover paying the other side's costs, too, but this is not necessary because we are introducing a system of qualified one-way cost shifting in personal injury cases, which will protect losing claimants from having to pay the other side's costs. We have discussed making exceptions in relation to expert reports in other contexts, but we do not believe that an exception is more needed here than in other cases. As I have said, the costs recovered in successful multinational cases have been substantial and could provide funds towards paying up front for reports where needed.

As I indicated on Report, on several occasions my officials and I have met representatives of the NGOs that support these cases. However, we have not been persuaded that such cases cannot continue to be brought when our changes are implemented. Nor are we persuaded that they justify an exception in the Bill that would be unfair to other, no less deserving claimants.

The House will be aware of all the arguments that I have rehearsed today, in Committee and on Report. We have treated subsequent discussions with the seriousness they deserve, and we have listened carefully. However, the Government continue to believe that reform is unavoidable, necessary and overdue. In this case in particular, we should not mix up a challenge to overgenerous costs with a denial of access to justice. Access to justice is precisely what the reformed CFA regime will protect, but as part of a more proportionate and balanced system. Therefore, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Photo of Baroness Coussins Baroness Coussins Crossbench 7:15 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and the Minister for his very detailed and thoughtful reply. I am only sorry that, although we started from the same place, we have not reached the same conclusions.

There has been much reference in this debate to costs running into millions of pounds. However, the Rome II regulations provide for damages paid to successful victims to be calculated according to the costs in the country where the abuse took place, whereas legal costs are calculated according to what they are in the UK. Therefore, vast disparities are bound to occur. It was the UK Government who signed up to this, not the South African miners or the Peruvian campesinos. We need to take responsibility for that and for the additional restraints proposed by the Bill.

In a case with thousands of claimants, of course the costs will run into millions. If there are 1,000 claimants, there will be 1,000 medical reports and 1,000 toxicology reports to get. There will be travel and translation costs. Of course it will be expensive. The firm of solicitors to which the Minister referred, Leigh Day & Co, which has conducted most of these cases, routinely cross-subsidises its human rights work by taking on many other types of case. That enables it to take on those human rights cases. In the case of Trafigura, for example, in which each victim was awarded £1,000, it was not extraordinarily disproportionate for the company to have achieved £3,000 in costs, given the kind and amount of work and the length of time that such cases involve.

The disparities and the inequalities are too great. Justice is justice, whatever the cost. I want to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 21

Contents 176; Not-Contents 206.

Amendment 21 disagreed.

Division number 6 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 174 Members of the House of Lords

No: 204 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Clause 46 : Conditional fee agreements: success fees

Amendments 22 and 23 not moved.

Amendment 24

Moved by Lord Pannick

24: Clause 46, page 33, line 18, at end insert-

"(7) To the extent specified in regulations made by the Lord Chancellor by statutory instrument, the amendments made by subsection (4) and section 48 and the repeal made by section 49(1), do not apply in relation to a costs order made in favour of a party to proceedings of a description specified in the regulations.

(8) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (7) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."

Photo of Lord Pannick Lord Pannick Crossbench 7:29 pm, 27th March 2012

My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. It seeks to confer on the Lord Chancellor a power to disapply provisions of Part 2 in particular categories of case. Noble Lords will know that Part 2 removes the power of the court to make unsuccessful defendants pay success fees and "after the event" insurance. Successful claimants would need to make these payments out of their damages. Concern has been expressed in your Lordships' House that this may deter or prevent claimants bringing meritorious claims and may operate unfairly by effectively reducing the damages which they obtain. This concern has been expressed in a wide variety of legal contexts from industrial injuries to insolvency claims.

The Minister's response to these criticisms has been to express the hope, and sometimes the belief, that Part 2 will not have the adverse consequences on access to justice which critics of these provisions fear. The reality is that neither the Government nor the critics of Part 2 can be sure what effect it will have on access to justice in practice. The Minister will, I hope, accept that it is possible that after the Bill is enacted and comes into effect, experience may show that in specific contexts the concerns expressed by those of us who are worried about the implications of Part 2 are justified, and that access to justice is being impeded.

This amendment would confer a discretion on the Lord Chancellor to respond to any problems that are seen to occur after enactment by excluding defined categories of case from the statutory provisions if he thinks it appropriate to do so. The new provision would confer a power in Part 2 equivalent to the Lord Chancellor's power in Part 1 under Clause 9(2) to modify Schedule 1 in relation to the scope of legal aid-a power for the Lord Chancellor which the Government accepted was appropriate in Part 1. I cannot see why the Lord Chancellor would not wish to have such a discretion in Part 2 equivalent to that which is given by the Bill in Part 1. In neither context does the discretion impose any duty on him.

Parliament is unlikely for some time to have another opportunity to look at these important matters. Given the importance of the changes that we are making in Part 2, given the concerns that have been expressed about their impact on access to justice, and given that these matters may look very different indeed in some legal contexts in the light of experience after these changes are made, it is surely wise to add to the Bill a power for the Lord Chancellor whereby it would be entirely within his discretion to modify the effect by excluding categories of cases. I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Alton of Liverpool Lord Alton of Liverpool Crossbench

My Lords, I shall be brief. I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Pannick. Just over a week ago, your Lordships were reminded by no less a person than Her Majesty the Queen that during her time as monarch she had signed more than 3,000 pieces of legislation enacted by Parliament. All of us who have been Members of this House and the other place know that we have a penchant for passing vast swathes of legislation that we never revisit subsequently. We all know that we sometimes legislate in haste and repent at leisure. I have had the feeling during the passage of this legislation that we will later regret some of the measures we have passed.

The problem then is what we are able to do about it. Although we sometimes add sunset clauses, and Select Committees can revisit legislation and make recommendations, we often do not put in the kind of belt-and-braces provision that my noble friend Lord Pannick has placed before your Lordships' House this evening. It is eminently reasonable. It is perfectly good for Parliament to say that if things were to work out in the worst-case scenarios in the way that your Lordships at various stages in Committee and on Report have suggested may happen, and if the Minister is proved not to be correct in what I am sure he sincerely believes regarding the way in which this legislation will be interpreted in due course, there ought to be some way of doing something about it if it is to be found wanting.

Giving this discretionary power to the Lord Chancellor and making it consistent with Part 1, as my noble friend has just described, seems to be the perfect way of dealing with the problem. It is eminently reasonable and, like my noble friend, I cannot see any good reason why the Government would want to resist something that requires no expenditure and does not place on them any duty, but simply gives them a discretionary power. I hope that the amendment will commend itself to your Lordships.

Photo of Lord Beecham Lord Beecham Shadow Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow Spokesperson (Health)

My Lords, the Opposition certainly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in his customary and eminently reasonable way. He clearly draws the analogy between the changes that the Government, to their credit, accepted in relation to legal aid and what is being advocated here. It adopts the precautionary principle whereby if things go wrong-they may not of course-there would be a fairly simple way of correcting them if the amendment were to be accepted. If it is not accepted, we would presumably be in for a long delay while primary legislation was enacted, as both noble Lords have made clear.

In this case, discretion is the better part of legislative valour, and I hope that the Government will accept the amendment. It does not bind them to anything but provides an opportunity for corrective measures to be taken, if that should prove necessary, in precisely the same way that they have accepted in relation to legal aid.

Photo of Lord McNally Lord McNally Deputy Leader of the House of Lords, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has tabled his amendment along the lines he suggested on Report. He suggested then that it might be sensible to have a power to disapply the effects of Part 2 in relation to the abolition of recoverability of success fees and insurance premiums in respect of particular categories of case. The amendment now seeks to achieve that.

I have referred on several occasions during the passage of the Bill to its central architecture. The Government's view, quite simply, is that the current recoverability regime is wrong in principle. It is wrong in principle to impose substantial additional costs on losing parties, whether in relation to success fees or insurance premiums. Those costs add to the already significant costs of civil litigation and allow for risk-free litigation by claimants and what I earlier described as inflation in our legal system.

I have explained the rationale for our proposals and why we consider that they should apply across the board without exception, and I do not propose to repeat those arguments now. The amendment seeks to allow different recoverability in different classes of case. We are implementing a package of reforms, not all of which are contained in the Bill. This package has been carefully put together to be fair between claimants and defendants.

I understand the noble Lord's intentions. I understand that he thinks it sensible to allow for exceptions to be made at a later date. However, we are legislating now on what we consider to be a fair and overdue basis. Funding arrangements need a degree of certainty. Claimants and defendants need to be able to plan and adapt to the new regime. The amendment would only create uncertainty. Will an exception be created? For what and when? Rather than settling the issue of CFAs, as this Bill seeks to do, the amendment would open the door to constant campaigning and calls for individual exceptions. The amendment may be well intentioned, but it is fraught with difficulty. It would provide uncertainty and confusion where we are seeking to introduce clarity. It would provide increased costs where we are seeking to reduce costs. It is wrong in principle and unnecessary. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.

Photo of Lord Pannick Lord Pannick Crossbench

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. I simply do not understand how the amendment undermines certainty any more than does the equivalent provision in Part 1. I repeat that it would simply confer a discretionary power on the Lord Chancellor. I understand that the Government believe that the architecture in Part 2 is correct, but the Minister should accept that experience may show that in some contexts, the architecture does not work. The amendment would, importantly, ensure that if those concerns prove to be justified, the Lord Chancellor will have a power to do something about it.

This is an important matter. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 24

Contents 162; Not-Contents 195.

Amendment 24 disagreed.

Division number 7 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 160 Members of the House of Lords

No: 193 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name