Report (5th Day)

Part of Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill – in the House of Lords at 9:45 pm on 20th March 2012.

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Photo of Lord Lloyd of Berwick Lord Lloyd of Berwick Chair, Ecclesiastical Committee (Joint Committee) 9:45 pm, 20th March 2012

My Lords, the noble Lord has not explained how a life sentence in the first amendment could in reality act as any greater deterrent than a second long determinate sentence. Nor has he dealt or attempted to deal with the astonishing figures that I mentioned, which show that we seem to have a thirst for creating life sentences that is entirely unique to the United Kingdom. It is not seen anywhere else in Europe. Nor, coming to the second amendment, has he explained why it is necessary to have another offence covering exactly the same ground as the existing offence. Of course it may be limited to handling a knife, but it is not confined to handling and clearly covers threatening, which is now given a new offence with exactly the same maximum sentence. However, I see that the Government cannot be persuaded, and therefore I must beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 154 withdrawn.

Schedule 18 : Life sentence for second listed offence etc: new Schedule 15B to Criminal Justice Act 2003

Amendments 154A to 154D

Moved by Lord McNally

154A: Schedule 18, page 245, line 16, leave out "and 226A" and insert ", 226A and 246A"

154B: Schedule 18, page 245, leave out lines 20 to 31 and insert-

"46 (1) Any offence that-

(a) was abolished (with or without savings) before the coming into force of this Schedule, and

(b) would, if committed on the relevant day, have constituted an offence specified in Part 1 of this Schedule.

(2) "Relevant day", in relation to an offence, means-

(a) for the purposes of this paragraph as it applies for the purposes of section 246A(2), the day on which the offender was convicted of that offence, and

(b) for the purposes of this paragraph as it applies for the purposes of sections 224A(4) and 226A(2), the day on which the offender was convicted of the offence referred to in section 224A(1)(a) or 226A(1)(a) (as appropriate)."

154C: Schedule 18, page 245, line 34, leave out "and 226A" and insert ", 226A and 246A"

154D: Schedule 18, page 246, line 15, leave out "done" and insert "committed"

Amendments 154A to 154D agreed.

Schedule 19 : Life sentence for second listed offence: consequential and transitory provision

Amendments 154E to 154L

Moved by Lord McNally

154E: Schedule 19, page 247, line 11, leave out paragraph 9

154F: Schedule 19, page 247, line 30, at end insert-

"13A In section 156 (pre-sentence reports and other requirements) after subsection (8) insert-

"(9) References in subsections (1) and (3) to a court forming the opinions mentioned in sections 152(2) and 153(2) include a court forming those opinions for the purposes of section 224A(3).""

154G: Schedule 19, page 248, line 2, at end insert-

"15A In section 224 (meaning of "specified offence" etc) in subsection (2)(b) for "225" substitute "224A"."

154H: Schedule 19, page 249, line 5, after "obliged" insert "by that section"

154J: Schedule 19, page 249, line 5, leave out "under that section"

154K: Schedule 19, page 249, line 21, after "life" insert "under section 94 of the Sentencing Act"

154L: Schedule 19, page 249, line 24, at end insert-

"(3) In section 305(4) (interpretation of Part 12) in paragraph (bb) (inserted by paragraph 21 of this Schedule) after "imprisonment for life" insert "or, if the person is aged at least 18 but under 21, custody for life"."

Amendments 154E to 154L agreed.

Clause 118 : New extended sentences

Amendment 154M

Moved by Lord McNally

154M: Clause 118, page 96, line 11, at end insert-

"(10) In subsections (1)(a) and (8), references to a specified offence, a specified violent offence and a specified sexual offence include an offence that-

(a) was abolished before 4 April 2005, and

(b) would have constituted such an offence if committed on the day on which the offender was convicted of the offence.

(11) Where the offence mentioned in subsection (1)(a) was committed before 4 April 2005-

(a) subsection (1)(c) has effect as if the words "by section 224A or 225(2)" were omitted, and

(b) subsection (6) has effect as if the words "in compliance with section 153(2)" were omitted."

Amendment 154M agreed.

Amendment 154MA

Moved by Lord Dholakia

154MA: Clause 118, page 96, line 11, at end insert-

"(10) The court must specify whether the requisite custodial period shall be one-half or two-thirds of the appropriate custodial term determined by the court."