House of Lords: Financial Support for Members — Motion to Approve

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 6:11 pm on 14 December 2009.

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Photo of Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market Conservative 6:11, 14 December 2009

I do not think that that is the relevant point. It is the relevant fee per day that is paid; that is what annex 7 is about. I am comparing the £200 that the SSRB recommends with the other fees, which are substantially higher in many cases than the £200 per day. It deserves to be said very clearly to the public that a fee of that level has a very large element of public service and duty in it, because, as has rightly been said, many Members of this House could be paid £200 per hour for the work that they do, not per day. That is an important point. Whether it is the architecture, the principles or the framework, I believe that that recommendation should be accepted, which is why I would accept the Government's recommendation this evening.

The analogy that I would give is the way in which we approach the code of conduct, and the Eames report, of which I was a member. The code of conduct was accepted in our debate, but the guidance on the code was referred to a working party. That is absolutely right; as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, said, in both the SSRB and the Eames report we had only a short time available to look at the detail and not enough time to look at the unintended consequences. With some of the detail put forward in the Eames report, they were just four people's views and we did not even agree among us exactly what they should all be. Therefore, the process should be subjected to much wider and longer consideration. Exactly the same principle should take place this evening; some of the details should be referred to the working group, as is proposed.

I share the concern expressed by many noble Lords on the details. On travel, it is clearly absurd to prevent the attendance of those who have to travel a long distance. On the point about taxable elements of home to work, it should be recognised that those coming here are not paid a salary at all and so have to have reasonable and full expenses for their travel. That area has to be looked at closely. I also share strongly the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell about some of the details of the overnight allowance. I shall not repeat them, but that is the area that most of all has to be looked at. I understand entirely the point that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, made about the absurd position on capital gains tax. This amounted to only three words in the whole report, as I see it; I do not know why it was thrown in as it was. No justification was given for it, or any explanation. However, that does need to be looked at, because it would be a bizarre situation if, on capital gains tax, the rule applying to Peers was different from the rule covering every other taxpayer in the country. I do not see how that can be justified.

I wanted to be very brief. I conclude on this point. I agree absolutely with my noble and long-standing friend Lord Ferrers about recommendation 26 on IPSA, which I hope that we will reject absolutely. However, overall I support the approach of the three party leaders in suggesting that we accept the framework, which includes the daily fee. There are, as has been clearly expressed today, a lot of details that I do not think that the SSRB has got right and which the working party should put forward for this House to decide.