Report (3rd Day) (Continued)

Part of Coroners and Justice Bill – in the House of Lords at 9:15 pm on 28 October 2009.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Lord Ramsbotham Lord Ramsbotham Crossbench 9:15, 28 October 2009

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment because ever since indeterminate sentences were proposed in the 2003 Act, I have been very concerned about their practical impact. At the time, many people forecast that they would be a severe impediment on the ability of the Prison Service to deal effectively with prisoners—not just the IPP prisoners, but other prisoners who would be likely to have the limited resources to tackle their own reoffending problems denied to them.

What was unfortunate about the introduction of the IPP was that it went ahead without proper impact assessments by the Home Office, which failed totally to look at the impact not just on the Prison Service but on the probation service. Both must be considered in the future. Only yesterday, I was visited by 11 people from the probation service, including nine who were about to qualify from the latest officers' course. They told me that, given the number of cases that they had to deal with and the cuts being imposed on them, the demands on them were such that when starting a case they simply did not have the time to complete the pre-sentence reports which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, mentioned as being one of problems. With the best will in the world, they cannot offer sufficient time to complete the reports, given the number of cases that they have to look at.

I have often said two things in this House about the context in which these sentences are being considered. First, it is extraordinary that no one knows the cost of imprisonment. That is not to say it is not known how much money has been given to the Prison Service by the Treasury and how much is distributed to each prison. However, it is not known how much it would cost to do all the things with and for prisoners that the Government say need to be done, including all the activities so ably described by the noble Lord in connection with indeterminate sentences. Are there assessments? How much do they cost? How much do the programmes that have to be carried out cost? Furthermore, how much does it cost to keep someone in prison for the additional period beyond the tariff that might otherwise have been imposed? Bearing in mind the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, produced—that only 76 such prisoners have so far been released—and given the numbers who have gone into prison, this is a recurring expense to the Prison Service which adds financial and overcrowding problems to those that already exist. In my book they are avoidable.

Secondly, the place of prisons in the criminal justice system is analogous to that of hospitals in the health service. They are the acute part of the system where treatment takes place, and you should go there only if you need the treatment that only hospital or prison can give. You must go there conscious that it will never be complete in either—it will have to be continued by aftercare in the community. The moment that the work that only prison or hospital can do has been completed, the patient or prisoner should be removed as quickly as possible from that expensive acute environment into somewhere where that work can be carried out. If you are being sensible, particularly in times of recession, that will be where it is cheaper, as well as just as effective.

The problem with this sentence is that because it was improperly proposed, improperly conducted, improperly impact-assessed and improperly introduced, it has built up problems which are getting almost beyond control. Indeterminate sentences are swamping some of the prisons and removing resources which should be made available to other prisoners, and therefore are having an undue impact on the ability of the Prison Service to protect the public by preventing offending.

I suspect that this amendment may not meet the Minister's immediate approval, but he and his successors must in all conscience examine the impact of the indeterminate sentence on the prison system for which they are responsible, otherwise they will be conniving at its ruin.