Operation Pathway — Statement

– in the House of Lords at 4:08 pm on 20 April 2009.

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Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism) 4:08, 20 April 2009

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, entitled "Operation Pathway". The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the 12 arrests which took place in the north-west of England on 8 April under the Terrorism Act. These arrests are part of an ongoing and fast moving police investigation. I am sure that honourable Members will understand, therefore, why I cannot go into detail on the investigation or the individuals involved.

On Wednesday 8 April, the North West Counter Terrorism Unit, working with Merseyside Police, Greater Manchester Police and Lancashire Constabulary arrested 12 men under the Terrorism Act. Of those 12 individuals, 11 remain in custody and have had their detention extended to 22 April. Ten of the individuals are Pakistani nationals and one is a British citizen. The 12th individual, who is believed to be an Afghan, has been transferred to immigration detention. In addition to the arrests, a number of premises have been searched. These arrests were pre-planned as the result of an ongoing joint police and Security Service investigation. The decision to take action was an operational matter for the police and the Security Service, but the Prime Minister and I were kept fully informed of developments. The priority at all times has been to act to maintain public safety.

The House will also be aware that, during Wednesday 8 April, photographs were taken of Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick as he was going to a meeting in Downing Street. Mr Quick was carrying papers which contained sensitive operational detail about this investigation and some of that detail was visible in the photographs. As a result, a decision was made by the police to bring forward the arrests to a few hours earlier than had been planned originally. The fact that these papers were inadvertently made public did not make any difference to the decision to carry out arrests; it simply changed the timing by a matter of hours. Assistant Commissioner Quick offered his resignation to the Metropolitan Police Authority on the following day and this was accepted. I pay tribute to his work on counterterrorism and for his many years of service. He has made an enormous personal contribution to making our country a safer place.

I am sure the House will want to join me in thanking all the police forces involved in this operation. They are to be commended for the professional manner in which they carried out the arrests. I also express my thanks to members of the public in the communities most immediately affected by these arrests, including at education institutions, for their patience and measured response to events. The police, with support from local authorities and elected representatives, are working closely with local communities to discuss issues or concerns linked to the operation.

Last month the Government published their revised strategy to counter the threat to this country and to our interests overseas from international terrorism. A key theme in CONTEST 2 is the need to co-ordinate our work with our international partners. The Prime Minister has already made it very clear that we need to continue to enhance co-operation on counterterrorism with Pakistan. He has spoken to President Zardari and they have agreed that our two countries must continue to work together as closely as possible to counter this threat. We are working with the Government of Pakistan to bolster their efforts to build civic society, to tackle violent extremism and to help build resilience in Pakistani society against radicalisation, just as we seek to do in the UK. This includes support for modernisation of Pakistan's security apparatus, support for governance and the rule of law, and work to undermine extremist ideology.

Our counterterrorism programme with Pakistan is worth approximately £10 million per annum and is our largest such programme. In addition, to help the Government of Pakistan to reduce poverty, the UK has doubled its aid programme to £480 million during 2008-11. The House will understand that I do not wish to compromise an ongoing investigation by discussing the specifics of this case. However, there has been some speculation that this investigation raises wider questions about the criteria for obtaining student visas, and about the issuing of licences by the Security Industry Authority. I would like to clarify the position on both points.

We are currently delivering the biggest reform of border security and the immigration system for a generation. Last year, we completed the rollout of biometric visas across the world. Fingerprints are checked against counterterrorism and crime databases, as well as UK Border Agency records. In posts that we have classified as high risk, such as Pakistan, we have a risk management network, which helps to ensure that the right visa decisions are made—for example, by working with the local authorities—to ensure that the qualifications of prospective students are independently verified. The impact of these changes is demonstrated in the increased refusal rate for visa applications from Pakistan nationals.

Under tier 4 of the points-based system, educational institutions that wish to bring in international students for more than six months must now be accredited by an independent body and licensed by the UK Border Agency. There will, for some time, be a number of students who have continuing leave under the old system. Many of these will be studying at colleges now on the PBS register, but some will not. Over half these students with existing leave will see their leave expire within 12 months, the vast majority within two years, and almost all within three years. Any student who does not bring themselves within the new PBS regime or leave the country when their leave expires will be subject to appropriate enforcement action. Before the points-based system was in place, around 4,000 institutions brought in international students. Now, under the PBS, about 1,500 institutions are registered to do so.

I have asked the UKBA to prioritise enforcement activity on institutions which applied but have not made it on to the PBS register, and subsequently on the remaining colleges that have brought in international students in the past but have not applied for a PBS licence. Where there is evidence of criminal activity, we will prosecute. Where colleges have decided that the requirements of our new, tougher regime are too onerous, we will not allow them to bring in international students.

On the issue of Security Industry Authority licences, applicants have to satisfy a number of criteria before a licence can be issued. In particular, no one is awarded a licence without a criminal record check and without having their right to work in the UK confirmed. I have asked the SIA to conduct an urgent review to look at whether the existing processes need to be strengthened, and at the extent to which students—particularly foreign students—apply for SIA licences and, importantly, whether this has implications for the security checks conducted by the SIA and the advice provided to employers.

The threat level to the United Kingdom from international terrorism is still assessed as severe. A terrorist attack is considered highly likely, so I repeat my thanks to the police and the security agencies for their work in relation to this investigation and for everything that they do to protect this country and the people who live in it from the threat of terrorist attacks. I commend this Statement to the House".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs 4:16, 20 April 2009

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement on what can only be described as a most serious situation. The loss of one of the most senior counterterrorism officers under any circumstances would be bad enough, but the fact that it has happened because of a self-inflicted gross security blunder is a disaster, which has ended his career. He was a talented and well regarded senior figure in the Metropolitan Police. This one catastrophic mistake has terminated his career, denied the service of an informed and experienced officer and brought a serious investigation to fruition earlier than anticipated. Whether this will have an adverse effect is not yet known; only the outcome of the current inquiries will confirm that. However, the police involved in this serious incident are to be commended for being in a position to bring forward the matter when it became urgent to do so.

Assistant Commissioner Quick's replacement, Assistant Commissioner Yates, even with all his knowledge and experience will have a considerable job to do quickly to establish his credibility in this part of the service—he is well known in other parts—and to come to grips with the enormous amount of work that has to be done to ensure the safety of this country. I am sure that he is more than capable of doing that; he has a good reputation within the police service.

There is probably little point in going over the almost unbelievable lapse of security for which Assistant Commissioner Quick so rightly fell on his sword. One hopes that lessons have been learnt, not only about the advisability of secret documents being laconically carried in full view of the press, but about transmitting such material in a way that enables briefings on sensitive issues to take place without the need for paper reminders.

The Minister might like to comment on the suggestion made by one photographer that the Government had been warned that the use of digital cameras by press photographers in Downing Street would mean that sensitive documents, if held openly, could be photographed in detail. Was such a warning received? If so, what action was taken on it?

The result of Assistant Commissioner Quick's lapse meant not only that secret information was available to the public but, far more importantly, that Operation Pathway had to be brought forward. We have yet to find out whether those arrested are to be charged, but there is at least a rumour that some—one or two—will be deported. Can the Minister say what discussions, if any, will be required with, presumably, the Pakistani authorities, or maybe those of another country, to ensure that anyone who is to be deported will be taken back on acceptable terms, particularly in view of the general difficulties over deporting people not only in the past but also at the moment? If there are to be deportations, how will those difficulties be overcome?

Phil Woolas, Minister for Immigration, has recently been quoted as saying that abuse of student visas has been the biggest loophole in Britain's border control. It has been suggested that at least some of those arrested are here on student visas. Can the Minister tell the House what is being done to tighten up the issuing of these visas, particularly for those applying from Pakistan? Is the Minister aware of the comments by the Pakistani high commissioner that his country would be willing to help with the scrutiny of those applying for visas to verify their bona fides? Has this matter been considered and discussed? The Home Secretary said in her Statement that we need to enhance co-operation with Pakistan. Would this be an opportunity to do so?

The UK Border Agency recently reported that, of the 2,100 applications from colleges for a licence to educate overseas students, over 460 had been rejected, although that was expressed in slightly different terms in the Home Secretary's Statement. What action is being taken to close down these colleges, or at least to refer them to the education authorities to be investigated? I note that the UK Border Agency will have some role in this, but I suspect that such colleges are also registered under other departments.

The Minister has been at pains to explain to the House on a number of occasions that the new tier system of visa control means that the number of people seeking to enter this country for work or study is being reduced. However, I am afraid that he may now need to explain more regularly how the abuse of student visas is to be stopped, with genuine students permitted to continue to benefit from our country while those who wish us ill are prevented from coming.

The police have a very difficult job. However, they have been in the limelight for all the wrong reasons in the past few weeks. Today, we have not had an opportunity to comment on the problems that have arisen regarding the performance of a few of them during the G20 conference. There are issues to be addressed, including the suggestion raised during the previous debate that some police officers were covering up their number tags. I realise that there is an independent police inquiry, but this is another issue that has recently bubbled up. There are also outstanding matters regarding the arrest of my honourable friend Damian Green. However, on today's Statement, Operation Pathway and its attendant dramas have been a real wake-up call: security means security to everyone involved.

Photo of Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Spokesperson for the Home Office 4:23, 20 April 2009

My Lords, we on these Benches thank the Minister for repeating the Statement with his normal assiduousness. We certainly accept that terrorism remains a serious threat and pay tribute to the police and security services in this case.

That said, the Statement is something and nothing. Of course, as the Minister said, we can know no details. In fact, all we know is that 11 people are still in custody and have not been charged after 12 days, and that the 12th individual, as the Minister said, is in immigration detention; one must assume that he is not a terrorist, then. We may have 11 terrorists or we may not. The Statement certainly diverts the House from the Statement that we should have had, as was said on the Conservative French Bench just now, on the policing of the G20 and the disgraceful way in which some members of the police address legitimate protest, treating it not only as a criminal activity but one to be brutally put down, in one case with fatal consequences. I expected a Statement to be made to the House today on the policing of the G20, as there is clearly an appetite for one, although an inquiry is being conducted. As the Minister said in relation to the terrorism issue, this is ongoing work, but I believe that a Statement should have been made.

The Government continually blur the crossover between criminal activity and terrorism. That occurred again recently in Plymouth, where I believe young people were arrested under the terrorism laws. I understand that they were engaged in criminal activity—spraying anti-capitalist, anti-G20 graffiti—but not terrorist activity. The Government need to address this cultural problem and make clear what constitutes terrorism, what constitutes criminal activity and what constitutes protest. We are nowhere near the bottom of that yet.

The Statement refers to co-operation with Pakistan, which is an extremely important issue. However, the paragraph dealing with support for Pakistan smacks of complacency and overoptimism. I understand from colleagues that the situation in Pakistan is very difficult indeed. To say that we are simply supporting governance and the rule of law suggests that the situation is far less difficult than it is.

As regards former Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick not concealing documents in a briefcase, the Government were aware of the dangers of people taking digital photographs, as that was exactly the trap into which Caroline Flint had fallen. In Bob Quick's case, the consequences were much more serious and we have lost a very senior police officer with expertise in these issues. If the relevant operation was not compromised but merely brought forward by a few hours, it seems a little odd that he resigned, with all that that entailed in loss of knowledge and expertise.

The Minister will appreciate that we discussed student visas in great detail during the passage of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill. Does he propose to table further amendments to that Bill in the light of the information that he now has? Is he happy with the speed at which bogus or dodgy colleges are being validated? How many Pakistani students apply for such visas per year?

The Minister and I were new to the Home Office brief when a Statement was made on a problem with the Security Industry Authority. The Minister explained the problem in the Statement and we had understood that it was being cleared up. It seems strange that more than a year later the problem still exists. Is this the same problem or a different one? Why was it not cleared up when it was first identified?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism) 4:28, 20 April 2009

My Lords, I thank both noble Baronesses for their questions and their input. I was particularly pleased to hear their support for our police services and agencies. I cannot talk about this operation in any detail, as it is ongoing, but I am proud of the professionalism and competency shown by our police and agencies.

I was up with the north-west counterterrorism unit some weeks ago, looking at the details of operations that it was conducting. I was very impressed by how these new regional counterterrorism units are working and by how they are able to call in resources from other counties. We should all be very proud of this aspect. I am pleased that since the last attempted attack and the last real attack on our transport we have been able to disrupt these plans and prevent any of these events from happening. One touches wood furiously, because there is a real and severe risk, but it is because of the good and detailed work by these people that we are as safe as we are in very difficult circumstances.

The loss of Bob Quick is extremely sad. It was a momentary slip by a very busy man, for whom I have a lot of admiration. I imagine that he was reading the document in the car. It was a stupid thing to do, and he knows that it was a stupid thing to do, and it is typical of the man that he tendered his resignation and went. I fear that it is just one of those things that happen. After many years of being in areas where there are a lot of pressures and difficulties, I would say that one must never assume that there is not someone who can do your job. There is always someone who can do your job; there is someone who could do my job here probably just as well as, if not better than, me. There is always someone who can do that, and good people will step into the breach and do it. I refuse to be too dejected about it. I am dejected only at the loss of an extremely good man.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, asked whether we were aware of the ability of new cameras; the issue was also touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. Yes, we were aware of that. The noble Baroness referred to a Minister who had a document that was photographed, after which a warning was sent out to people to be aware of this fact. I do not know the detail of how that might have gone out within the police service, for example, but I am aware that a warning went out to all those going to No. 10 that this was a risk. For example, in my office, I no longer allow any files that have a clear front cover, because it is too easy to forget and to step out and have something photographed that one would prefer not to have photographed.

It is very difficult on these occasions, because I know so much, so to speak, and I can say so little. I have spoken before on the Floor of the House about deportation with assurances, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, touched. I cannot talk about that now, because it is an issue for negotiations with another country and nothing has been agreed yet.

Possibly people are being a little harsh on the abuse of student visas. In 2007, when I took over, I looked at a number of issues for the Prime Minister. One of the issues that we identified that I was concerned about was border security. We looked at tightening up border security and the issue of a border force. A number of people mentioned student visas and students coming into this country, which we looked at, and we decided that we had to tighten those things up and do something about them, as we have across all sorts of areas of our immigration policy. We are doing a huge amount and we should be proud of what we have achieved over the past two years in tightening all this up. In a minute, I will go into some of the details of what we do regarding someone coming from Pakistan. There was a worry, which is why we have done something about it.

Quite often when I am standing here pushing through legislation that would tighten up immigration, I feel that I am being shot to ribbons by the opposite side of the House. When something like this happens, one sees why we are doing these things. We do not do them because we wish to be draconian and unpleasant; we do them because there is a requirement so to do, which is why we are pushing these things forward.

I was aware of what the Pakistan high commissioner said. I do not think that he was completely aware of what the Pakistan authorities already do for us. They work with us on a number of these things. I will quickly run through some of the things that we do regarding students. Their fingerprints are checked against our police fingerprint database to see whether there are any criminal records, including serious crime and terrorism, through SOCA. Checks are also made with the UK Border Agency immigration and asylum records. We have the Risk and Liaison Overseas Network, which provides additional checks and supports for all high-risk posts—in Pakistan, for example—in making the right visa decisions. It has been there since 2005. We have an agreement with the Pakistan Higher Education Commission to ensure that the qualifications of prospective student visa applicants can be verified. That has been done since 2007, when we realised that we needed to tighten this up. The refusal rate for visa applications for Pakistan nationals has risen from 32 per cent in 2006 to 44 per cent in 2008. The refusal rate for students increased from 63 per cent to 69 per cent in 2008. That shows me that something was wrong that needed tightening, and we are doing something about it.

The introduction of tier 4 to the points-based system means that there are robust new controls on how education institutions bring in international students. These institutions now have to pass two tests before they can sponsor international students. The institutions must show that they have been inspected and audited, must hold valid accreditation with one of five approved accreditation bodies and must be licensed by the UK Border Agency. Any foreign student who wants to study in the UK, since tier 4 went live, has to demonstrate that they have a place at one of those institutions. Individuals who want to extend their student leave need to meet the requirements of the points-based system, including studying at licensed institutions; if they want to switch, they have to notify that. We have quite a comprehensive system in place. Is it perfect? I would say that it is not yet perfect, and we shall have to keep working at it. We can always improve things and, of course, nothing will ever be watertight. I am afraid that it is rather like the threat from terrorism: we have done a huge amount to make us all safer, but we are still at risk. You cannot ever, I am afraid, remove that risk.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, mentioned the G20 and the covering-up of number tags. All that I would say is that I am delighted that a number of proper inquiries are in place, because there are things that absolutely need to be looked into. If police officers took off their numbers, that was completely wrong. The investigation will bowl this out and we will get them. However, I would add that my son, who works for the media, was filming that day at the riots. He said that he was very impressed, as he went from place to place, at how professional and good our police were in the face of some quite awful intimidation at times. That does not for a second condone things that are wrong and, if the investigations show that the police have broken the law, those involved will be hit by the investigations. Overall, however, the bulk of our police do a remarkable job in extremely difficult circumstances and I, for one, feel really pleased that they are there doing that for me. Basically, they are on our side—let us not fool ourselves; that is what they are there for—and I am very proud of what they actually achieve.

We have had a number of debates on the Floor of this House about security meaning security and the protection of data. It is quite right that the House should have been concerned about the protection of data. There have been lapses, but we have done an awful lot to tighten that up. We are in a world that is rich in data and needs data to run and to administer things, to check on people and to make us safer. There is a whole raft of things and we have to be better at this. Indeed, we are getting better at it. I think that government is now better at it than businesses; we have become better than them. This is something that we all have to learn, because we are in that very rich data environment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said that this was something or nothing. Unfortunately, although I know an awful lot, I cannot say very much. That is one of the unfortunate things about these issues, because it would be wrong to say something about them. However, the noble Baroness pointed out how important it is to protect the public; I agree and I hope that what I have said shows how important it is. As I have said, we welcome the inquiries into the G20 issues. I cannot talk about the issue in Plymouth because the inquiry is ongoing. All that I would say is that we are very even-handed when one looks across the board, because we are often accused by the Muslim community of focusing on it. We focus on anyone who we believe is trying to take violent action against our society and our people. We are even-handed on that.

I have touched enough on the issue of Bob Quick's lack of a briefcase. He was probably just reading in the car. It is sad and unfortunate to lose a good man like that, but it is a mark of the man that he was willing to go at that stage. That is a rather good thing for people to do occasionally.

We are doing a lot on student visas. The Home Secretary has announced that she will speed up the work of looking at the various institutions and do even more. In fact, the reduction is quite dramatic. For there to have been a reduction from some 4,000 to something like 1,500 institutions shows that there was a real worry. When we looked at this, we found that most of the concerns were related not to terrorism but to breaking immigration rules. We are putting a cap on that and stopping it, which is an appropriate thing to do.

Over a five-year period, about 358,000 Pakistan students applied to come here—it is a huge number. We have, I think, let in between 15,000 and 20,000 in those five years. We have to remember that education in this country is a marvellous means by which we can influence the rest of the world. It is also a big money earner for us. I think that the figure raised from educating foreign people in this country is £6 billion per annum, which is rather important. I hope that I have answered all the various points that were raised. If not, I shall be very happy to come back in writing on them afterwards.

Photo of Lord Clinton-Davis Lord Clinton-Davis Labour 4:40, 20 April 2009

My Lords, can my noble friend, without revealing too much, say a little more about the co-operation between the police here and the authorities in Pakistan? How likely is it—if he can reply to that—that it will yield positive results?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, my noble friend has hit on a very important point, which is of course that I am unable to say anything about that on the Floor of the House. I am sorry but I really cannot speak on that issue. Perhaps a little further down the track it will be possible to talk about it in private.

Photo of Lord Elystan-Morgan Lord Elystan-Morgan Crossbench

My Lords, the Minister very appropriately referred to foreign students in the context of terrorism. In inviting him to return to this matter, I declare an interest that I have referred to on previous occasions in this House in relation to higher education. Does he agree that there are three separate questions? The first concerns the problem of the student who comes for higher education in the United Kingdom from a thoroughly bogus educational institution—one that has no significant academic merit. The second concerns the well qualified and properly qualified academic who either has come with the firm intention of being involved in terrorist proclivities or is open to persuasion in relation to such matters. The third question concerns persons of genuine academic merit who come to Britain for wholly genuine educational purposes but are then corrupted and ultimately take part in terrorist proclivities. Does the noble Lord agree—indeed, I think that he has already suggested this—that it would be extremely unfortunate if there were a blanket antipathy towards foreign students, particularly Pakistani students, who contribute so much culturally and, as the noble Lord has already mentioned, financially to the United Kingdom?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, I can only agree with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. He is absolutely correct. The bulk of students who come here have a real desire to learn. They wish to use what are probably some of the best educational establishments in the world, and it is absolutely right that we should try to provide such opportunities for them. Equally, we have to protect ourselves. Looking back, I do not think that we have been as good at that as we should have been, but I think that the things that we have put in place over the past two years are good and are protecting us. We can probably do even more and we are tweaking and slowly adjusting those measures to achieve that. However, it is absolutely right that we should encourage people to come here. We want real students who really want to learn, who can then go back to Pakistan and help that country. I believe that the education situation has been one of the key problems there in that it has allowed al-Qaeda and extremism to prosper. If we can do something about that, it will have been a marvellous thing to achieve.

Perhaps I may go back to a figure that I quoted wrongly. I wish to clarify that 358,000 is the total number of students who came here in 2007. Of those, 15,000 to 20,000 were Pakistani.

Photo of Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville Conservative

My Lords, I join in congratulating the police and the intelligence services on their remarkable recent achievements in this operation. On the Statement, how many languages are spoken by the 12th individual in detention, who, in the words of the Statement, is believed to be an Afghan? Secondly, what proportion of the 1,500 institutions currently registered to bring in international students simply teach English as a language and what proportion teach academic, technical or vocational subjects?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, the noble Lord shows his knowledge of the world of agency spookdom and so on. I am afraid that I cannot talk in any detail about what languages this person may speak. I do not wish to go into this case as I am afraid that it would give things away. On the other point about teaching English as a language and other types of subjects, I shall have to come back to the noble Lord in writing, as I do not have that detail at my fingertips.

Photo of Viscount Eccles Viscount Eccles Conservative

My Lords, is it normal practice to hold meetings of the security services and the police in Downing Street? Whether or not there was someone carrying a folder with a transparent cover, there will always be interest in who is coming to Downing Street and what they are coming for. If it is obvious that a meeting involves the security services and the police, security matters are likely to be the answer. Does the Minister regret that this particular meeting was held in Downing Street? What was the added value of holding it there?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, clearly the decision to move or not to move against a plot or suspected plot is a matter for the police and agencies. It is not for Ministers and it should not be, because that would be wrong. The police and security services have to make that decision, but they are very clear that they must always bend very far towards making sure that they protect life and look after people in this country rather than letting things slip the other way to ensure that they have some nice evidence in the bag and take the risk of something happening. But it is totally their decision.

On this occasion, I believe that Assistant Commissioner Quick was going to Downing Street to brief the Prime Minister about what the police intended to do having made their operational decision. It was not a discussion or big briefing of the type referred to. There is always an issue about people monitoring who goes into No. 10 and what that means, but you cannot always draw conclusions, because someone such as Assistant Commissioner Quick might need to go there to talk about a number of things. The risk is more apparent than real on that, but that is the background.

Photo of Baroness Carnegy of Lour Baroness Carnegy of Lour Conservative

My Lords, of the 2,500 colleges that took in overseas students before and have now not been registered, how many applied and were refused and for what variety of reasons?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, I understand that so far 2,195 universities, independent schools and colleges have applied of the 15,000 that were doing this before. Just under 500 have actually been turned down. I do not have a breakdown of the exact reasons, but the figure shows that a number of so-called establishments were not really establishments at all—perhaps there were a number of names with the same postbox and things like that to allow people to come in as immigrants. That is why it is so important, as we identified back in 2007, to do something about this. I will answer the noble Baroness in writing if I have details of why they were turned down and I am allowed to put them on paper.

Photo of Lord Patel of Blackburn Lord Patel of Blackburn Labour

My Lords, why do the police invite the media at the time of making arrests instead of afterwards when people are being charged?

Photo of Lord West of Spithead Lord West of Spithead Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Security and Counter-terrorism), Home Office, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office) (Security and Counter-terrorism)

My Lords, with a major operation such as this, word gets out very quickly and people know that something is going on. Clearly, we needed to talk to the local community and make people aware of what was happening. All that was done immediately after the arrests were made. Then one has to go through the whole process of looking for evidence. Very often, as we know from historic cases where people have been charged and are now in prison, we start with what one might call no hard evidence. It is all intelligence based. That is one of our real problems. If we want to prevent a major atrocity, the police and agencies have to move before we have gathered hard evidence. That has been debated a number of times before in this House and is one of the real difficulties that we wrestle with. That is why we have arrived at this position.