asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is their response to the report of the Coalition on Charging, Charging into Poverty?; and whether they propose to meet the coalition.

My Lords, as my noble friend and other noble Lords are aware, the Green Paper on the future of care and support will be published next year for consultation. Members of the coalition have attended stakeholder events helping to inform the development of this important policy. The Green Paper team has a copy of the coalition's report, which will be taken into account when developing the Green Paper.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is she aware that charges are having an absolutely devastating effect on disabled people? Some have been deterred from using these services, which is very sad because they need them. There was some talk of suicide, and it was not idle talk. People really are desperate, so can my noble friend tell the House precisely what the Government's plans are for dealing urgently with this problem?

I am surprised that my noble friend has not agreed to meet the coalition, because although individual members have spoken to Ministers, that is not the same as having a full meeting. It is imperative, so I hope that my noble friend will change her mind and agree to meet them; that would cause great delight among disabled people.

My Lords, my noble friend asks two questions, and I will attempt to deal with both. I was not aware of the havoc and severe distress that he has mentioned, and I am very sorry to hear it. I will be very keen to hear about the problems he has referred to. However, the question appears to be based on the supposition that all service users are charged and that individual means for costs incurred in coping with disability are not taken into account. This is not the case. There is no reason for anyone to be deterred from applying to their local council for services. Councils must apply a means test before making any charge for services to ensure that nobody will be asked to pay for more than they can afford.

I am very puzzled by what my noble friend said about meeting the coalition. We are consulting with most members of the coalition already. Ten out of the 18 members are represented on the Government's stakeholder panel on reform of the care and support system. I have made sure that the remaining two organisations are added to the stakeholder list. The report that the coalition published is certainly being used to inform the Green Paper. I should be happy to meet members, but there is no doubt that the coalition is already having a significant impact on this policy development.

My Lords, is the Minister aware that 47 per cent of families with a severely or profoundly disabled child live in poverty, probably due to the fact that they pay five times as much for specialist childcare as other families? That often means that the parents have to give up work to take over the job of full-time carers. Does the Minister believe that the £60 payment in January, offered in yesterday's PBR, will ameliorate this dire situation?

My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware through his work, it is not the only payment that families receive to support them with their disabled children. A whole range of support and services should be available to them. It is important that families use the systems that are effective in making sure that those services are available to them. It is important that they use the information services and that they challenge local authorities where they think that services are inadequate.

My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that, when assessing the charges for care, local authorities do not take full account of unavoidable costs such as the essential utilities of heating and water? My own local authority, Hammersmith and Fulham, is being taken to judicial review in the High Court later this week for failure fully to impact-assess its charging policy for care. What guidance do the Government provide to local authorities on undertaking full and effective impact assessments of care services and on charges to use services? Does the Minister think that new guidance is required to prevent poverty?

My Lords, my noble friend raises an important point. The fair charging policies guidance already requires assessment of service users' ability to pay charges. Local authorities have to assess individual users' disability-related expenditure. The guidance makes it clear that it is not acceptable to make any charge without prior assessment of its reasonableness. If councils make a mistake in assessing charges, there are effective routes for appeal such as the Local Government Ombudsman, who I understand is both quick and effective in dealing with such cases.

My Lords, is not the problem in dealing with disabled children the lack of specialist teachers in appropriate care? I raised this question some 20 years ago. Nothing has been done about it.

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point. I undertake to investigate why it has not been addressed for the past 20 years, although I have to say that the Government are keen that all the people who deal with disabled people and disabled children have the appropriate training.

My Lords, will the Government carry forward the report's recommendation that when local authorities propose changes to charging policies, service users and their families should be fully involved in planning the changes so that the interests and concerns of the people who really need the services are properly taken into account? Will she recognise that the varying interpretations of the distinction between healthcare and social care is an issue that needs to be taken seriously, because some people are being charged when they ought not to be?

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes a very important point. People do not care whether what they need is provided by the health service or social services; the key question is whether it is effective. That is why charging for care is being addressed in the Government's current reforms. We are running a major consultation which will end this month. It is clear that there is a lack of public awareness about care and support, what it means and how it is funded. It is vital that we build public understanding so that we can have a genuine debate about solutions.

My Lords, will the department issue guidance about the need to distinguish between financial assessment and needs assessment, and transparency for both those different processes?

My Lords, I think that we are issuing guidance which addresses that issue as a result of a CSCI report. I shall ensure that that is an accurate answer and write to the noble Baroness.