Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 1:00 pm on 17 July 2008.
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for this considered debate on the proposals, and I appreciate the views expressed by colleagues in this House on the wider concerns that are affected by the order. There have been some thoughtful and helpful interventions, and I will try to deal with them.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, articulated very clearly our reason for going down this route. He asked how confident one might be about differentiating between the different parts of Hezbollah, particularly in collecting money and moving it. I agree that this is extremely difficult. The police and the Charity Commission will have to look at the arrangements that cover money flowing out of the country. Generally, it is incumbent on the person who gives money to something to check exactly whom it is going to, but I accept that this is difficult. The police and the Charity Commission will have to look very carefully at this, which is not easy to do. Will we ask the EU to proscribe this? We will take this to the EU and see how that goes with the committee that reviews this.
The noble Lord, Lord Russell-Johnston, asked why our position on the PMOI has not changed. I will touch on this in the context of the EU. The EU addressed this, but I am afraid that some of the other nations in the EU did not feel the same way as we did. Therefore, the issue is slightly in limbo at the moment and is still on the EU's list. I am not sure how this will go forward, but that is where it stands at the moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, talked about disarmament. We would like to link this to disarmament, but it is extremely difficult to do so. Again, we will have to see how this can be done. It is not easy, but it is extremely important that we show that we differentiate between these two things. The issues that made us change our mind and review all this have been going on for many months, and we have had to have a lot of discussions with a lot of people, sift all the intelligence and look at all the evidence. The end result was that we were very clear that this was having an impact on our troops in Iraq. There was also the issue of the Palestinian territories. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, asked whether we could differentiate between the two. The answer is no. The threat to coalition forces, which inevitably include our own troops, is very great. We have lost 136 of our people there, and it is very important that we show that this is totally unacceptable not only so far as terrorism is concerned but unacceptable full stop. We have reached that position, which is the reason for the timing of the order.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked about the timing of the order. He has great experience of conflict resolution, and we all think very highly of it. He knows a lot about it, and he made some very important points. I touched on the issue of disarmament. It is absolutely true that it is almost impossible to get anyone to disarm if they feel that they will be attacked, and that is quite understandable. One has to get beyond that before anything can be done. In an ideal world, the timing, as with so many things in this area, might not be quite like this. As I said, however, there is a very real threat to our people—136 have been killed, many of them by these very clever improvised explosive devices. We know now that Hezbollah is linked to this as terrorists. We had to move on this to give a signal.
Is this absolutely the best moment to do that? It is important to show that we understand the good things that Hezbollah is doing within Lebanon. Our ambassador in Lebanon has talked to the various people involved there. We think that it would be wonderful if Hezbollah became a proper political party. It is rather important to show that we differentiate between the two. That is why the timing might seem a little strange. I am afraid that it takes a long time for these things to flow through and to do all the checks. We have arrived at that stage now. There is no nefarious plan. It has not been done as a clever move to send a particular message. I agree that it might not be the best moment, but it is important to make it absolutely clear that we are unwilling to let terrorists act in the way that they do, particularly when they injure and kill our people who are operating in Iraq. A number of speakers have rehearsed the possibility of going further than we have. I believe that there is a difference between the two wings, and have already touched on the issue of how easy it is to differentiate them in the UK. It is difficult to do that, but we should try because it is important.
I hope that I have touched on most of the points raised. If I have not, I will, if I may, write to noble Lords afterwards. As I said, this is an issue of great importance. A number of noble Lords asked whether the threat from this group is specifically within the UK. I have to say that it is not; it is within Iraq and the Occupied Territories. The threat is not to the UK but to our interests abroad and to those who are serving us abroad. It is therefore important that we do this. It will contribute to our efforts to make the United Kingdom a hostile environment to those who support terrorism. It will send a clear message of our condemnation of Hezbollah's support for terrorism while at the same time showing it that there is a way forward by becoming a proper member of the community and doing all the good things that it does in supporting its own community. As such, I commend this instrument to the House.