Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 4:15 pm on 28 January 2008.

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Photo of Lord Alton of Liverpool Lord Alton of Liverpool Crossbench 4:15, 28 January 2008

My Lords, I support the important points that the noble Baroness has just made. I was delighted to hear my noble friend Lord Patel say that this was a probing amendment. Unlike the earlier amendments which he moved, when he put forward very good clinical grounds by centring on the care and the needs of the patient, this time we are looking at something altogether different. It is the retrospectivity of this that worries me in addition to the points that the noble Baroness has just made—the ability to put something right after the event which is implied in the amendment. My noble friend said when he moved the amendment that he recognised—these are his words—that there should be stringent penalties and there ought to be proper prohibitions. I agree with him about that. The kind of people who will be carrying out this research, as the noble Baroness has just intimated, will be competent individuals who should have read the regulations and know the law.

I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply in due course. In a way, however, I think that the answer to the conundrum that my noble friend offers the House is in the penultimate line of his amendment where he talks about "reasonable grounds". If there are reasonable grounds and a researcher were to be prosecuted, then I am certain that the courts would find in favour of the litigant rather than on behalf of the person who was bringing the prosecution, possibly on vexatious grounds. I think that the answer is already in the amendment. I therefore hope that my noble friend will not feel the need to press this too far.

All of us are worried about those who might try to circumvent the law. I know that the noble Lord would share my indignation should anyone seek to try and do that. He may well be correct that the definitions of gametes, embryos and cell lines defy our ability to be crystal clear, as they have done throughout our proceedings. However, anyone reading this legislation once it has passed, in conjunction with the Hansard reports accompanying it, will be in no doubt at all about what Parliament's intentions were. I would be nervous about anything that gave anybody literally "a licence" to circumvent procedures. I would be anxious about anything that seemed to dilute our determination to prosecute those who deliberately violated the law. I therefore hope that my noble friend will not feel the need to press this further today.