EU: Reform Treaty

– in the House of Lords at 11:06 am on 22 November 2007.

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Photo of Lord Blackwell Lord Blackwell Conservative 11:06, 22 November 2007

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which articles of the former treaty establishing a constitution for Europe will not be reflected in the consolidated European Union treaty base if the proposed European Union reform treaty is adopted.

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, rather than considering comparisons with a treaty that never came into force, the European Union Select Committee of your Lordships' House has proposed to conduct its assessment of the impact of the reform treaty on the basis of the changes that it makes to the treaties that are currently in force. That is a sensible approach, which the Government support. We will provide the committee with a comparison of the reform treaty with the existing treaties.

Photo of Lord Blackwell Lord Blackwell Conservative

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response, although I am disappointed that it did not better address my Question. Has she seen, and does she agree with, the report of the scrutiny committee in another place, which suggests that only one article of the previous constitutional treaty is not reflected in the new treaty and that only one article has been added to the new treaty?

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I have seen and read the report from another place. I refer the noble Lord—as I always do—to paragraph 76 of that estimable report, which is an interesting part of the analysis of the UK Government's position. However, I understand that the Government have not yet formally responded to the report. The noble Lord will know that the important aspect of our deliberations on the new treaty is to understand the changes to our current treaty obligations that will be in the new treaty. That is the right way to continue.

Photo of Lord Tomlinson Lord Tomlinson Labour

My Lords, is not the important thing about the proposed reform treaty that every single position regarded as imperative by the British Government and by the overwhelming majority of Members of Parliament has been secured? That being the case, what we need to do now is to get on with ratification. That process will show that there is no need for further nonsense talk about referendums.

Photo of Lord Dykes Lord Dykes Spokesperson in the Lords (Europe), Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords (Cap Reform), Environment, Food & Rural Affairs

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that one of the greatest assets in the revised text remains the scrutiny and participation by both the European Parliament and the national parliaments? Is that not particularly suitable for the small number of member states where these procedures are regarded feverishly and, indeed, semi-hysterically?

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I hesitate to describe anything as semi-hysterical. However, it is important to recognise that the considerations by national parliaments, which are very important, as the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, said, are a fundamental part of the process by which we will go forward in the European Union.

Photo of Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Conservative

My Lords, is the failure on the part of the Minister to answer my noble friend's Question owing to the fact that it would reveal that the promise in the manifesto to give the people a say on this matter through a referendum is being reneged on? What exactly did the Government mean in the gracious Speech when they talked about making Parliament more accountable, given that they propose to give the powers of this Parliament to a supranational body without the consent of the people and on a whipped vote on their side of the House?

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I completely disagree with the noble Lord. I do not accept for one moment that what we are discussing in the reform treaty is the constitutional treaty. It is very simple: there was a proposal, which was abandoned, for a new constitution for the European Union. Had that proposal been taken forward, it would have been right, as we said in our manifesto, to have a referendum. This is not the same thing, however many times noble Lords try to pretend that it is.

Photo of Lord Harrison Lord Harrison Labour

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Professor Chalmers of the LSE, in his evidence to the European Union Select Committee this Tuesday, said that, compared with the Maastricht treaty and indeed the Single European Act, the current reform treaty is of relatively little significance in altering the powers of the Government of this country?

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I did not know about that, but I am sure that my noble friend is correct in his report of the analysis that has been made. This is an important reform treaty. It is important for Parliament to debate it, as Parliament has always debated such matters. It is important for us to have full debates on the ratification process. That is an appropriate mechanism by which we should take this forward and that is what we should do.

Photo of Lord Howell of Guildford Lord Howell of Guildford Shadow Minister, Foreign Affairs, Deputy Shadow Leader, Parliament, Shadow Minister (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs), Shadow Deputy Leader of the House of Lords

My Lords, it would be useful to have an answer to the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Blackwell. Regardless of whether we have a referendum—I suspect that we probably will in the end, now that 12 heads of member states, all the authors of the previous treaty and some authors of the present treaty concede that this is 90 or 95 per cent similar to the constitution and contains all the European constitution treaty provisions—is it still government policy to go on denying that this is a constitutional treaty? That might be rather a waste of time when everyone agrees that it is.

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I do not know how much clearer I can be. This is a reform treaty, which reforms the existing treaties. There is little point in debating something that will never be—in other words, the abandoned constitutional treaty—and trying to refer back to it in order, I guess, to make the political point that the noble Lord's party wishes to make: that somehow this is still the same thing, which we declare it is not. The interesting thing, when we have gone through the ratification process of Parliament, will be to see whether the noble Lord's party will then say that that is insufficient and no longer appropriate and that, instead of agreeing that Parliament is the right forum in which to debate this, they want a referendum. We wait with great interest.

Photo of Lord Slynn of Hadley Lord Slynn of Hadley Crossbench

My Lords, will the Government now explain, as I have asked them to do before, that not only is 90 or 95 per cent of the new draft in the constitution treaty, but it has been there since Maastricht, since Amsterdam and so on? Most of it is simply a collation of what we have been living with and applying in the Community for 50 years and less.

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

Indeed, my Lords. When we come on to the debates, one of the interesting aspects that noble Lords will be particularly concerned to look at is the red lines that the UK has secured, which are important as we move forward. Let me say just one thing in a positive vein. It is very important that we are part of the European Union and, as we now have 27 members, that we find better ways of working together in the future.

Photo of Lord Morgan Lord Morgan Labour

My Lords, is there not something quite illogical in the Opposition's position whereby they complain that powers are being taken away from our Parliament by Brussels, yet they themselves want to substitute government by Parliament with government by referendum?

Photo of Lord Elton Lord Elton Conservative

My Lords, can the Leader of the House tell us whether the protection of the British position referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, is contingent on any changes in the present system of voting in the European Union?

Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council (Privy Council Office)

My Lords, I am not entirely sure whether the noble Lord is referring to qualified majority voting. There are issues about QMV and the way in which it is used within the Union and, again, I am sure that we will debate these in great detail. There are proposals to use the system known as passerelle, a mechanism by which one can deal sometimes with technical points and at other times with more important issues than the technicalities of agreed lines that look at whether it is better to move from unanimity to qualified majority voting. But the critical factor in this is that one can move from unanimity to qualified majority voting only by unanimous agreement.