Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

– in the House of Lords at 4:17 pm on 22nd October 2007.

Alert me about debates like this

Votes in this debate

Proceedings after Third Reading resumed.

Clause 56 [Electoral Commission and Boundary Committee: reviews and recommendations]:

Photo of Lord Greaves Lord Greaves Spokesperson in the Lords, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 5 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 6, which is grouped with it and is effectively part of the same amendment. The amendments address a fairly small issue which has not yet been sorted out satisfactorily—a constitutional matter, though one which is perhaps rather less weighty than those which the House has been discussing in the past hour. It is about the arrangements for electing councillors in a relatively small number of, usually, small authorities. The Bill sets out the background to the way in which the Boundary Committee and the Electoral Commission will look at whether councils elected by thirds or by halves can have single-member wards or, if the councils are elected by thirds, two-member wards. However, this is really about single-member wards in rural areas.

We had much discussion of this issue in Committee and the Minister kindly explained the Government's thinking, which seemed a little confused. She said that the Government felt strongly that when a council elects by thirds, it is best that each ward should vote at each election, allowing electors in all parts of the district to vote at the same time and to have an equal chance of influencing the overall composition of the council. I am talking mainly about non-metropolitan district councils and some unitaries. However, she said that the Government did not wish to make that mandatory and that it would be a matter of looking at the specific circumstances in each council when a boundary revision took place.

We are talking mainly about single-member wards in small village communities in rural areas in relatively small counties. In such areas there are many single-member wards in councils that elect by thirds. I am not sure exactly how many there are, but 80 non-metropolitan districts elect by thirds, of which at least half have single-member wards. The arguments on each side are this. Some years ago, the Electoral Commission produced a report that, in a fairly academic way, said that, ideally, all electors should take part in each election. On the other hand, single-member wards work well in some rural areas because they allow the relationship between the councillor and the rural village to be much stronger. We have single member wards in such places, simply because during past boundary reviews this was thought by local people to be the best way forward, due to the relationship between these rural areas and councillors. Multi-member wards would be geographically large, and it would be better to have smaller wards with fewer councillors.

The purpose of tabling the amendment at this late stage in the Bill is to try to get the Government to give a clear statement of their thinking and what approach will be taken if there is a Boundary Committee review in certain authorities. My reading of Clause 56 is that there will be a very clear presumption in favour of three-member wards—or two-member wards in areas that elect by halves. I am not clear what the exceptions to that might be. The amendment tries to take out of the equation an assumption either way, and tries to put on to the statute book a situation in which local opinion will count and the local circumstances will count in each case. It tries to take a balanced view.

I am therefore trying to take out the word "appropriate". Although I understand that the way in which the word is used in the clause can be regarded as just a technical matter—whether it is appropriate to have two or three, according to how the council elects—the word is full of value judgments, and people will read that wording as though it is appropriate to have either a two-member or a three-member ward but not a single-member ward. I am trying to replace the word "appropriate" with the word "divisible", a totally non-judgmental word that is already in the Bill, to describe the situation in the wards concerned. So in one sense this is a very technical matter, but in another sense it is very important.

This is one of the proposals in the Bill that people on the ground simply do not understand are being made. People will find out too late that single-member wards in rural districts—which they have become used to, which have become accepted as part of the local political scene and which they want to continue—may no longer be possible because what they will see as an obscure clause in the Bill was passed and no one noticed. I am asking the Government to notice and to put the clause on a more even keel. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip 4:45 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I hope I can reassure the noble Lord. I appreciate that this is the first opportunity we have had to discuss his concerns because this amendment was not moved on Report, so I hope I can take him through the Government's thinking in some detail. We do not believe there would be any benefit in applying the noble Lord's amendment as it would have no material effect on the Bill. The word "appropriate", which appears in Clause 56(2), is clearly defined in Clause 56(3).

The noble Lord asked me to clarify the Government's reasons for introducing these provisions and I am happy to do so. I remind the House that decisions on electoral arrangements are matters for the Electoral Commission following recommendations made to it by the Boundary Committee for England. It is therefore for those bodies to decide what the number of members per ward should be when conducting electoral reviews. I know that the noble Lord is well aware of that.

The Government have brought forward Clause 56 because we believe that where community identities can be represented, effective and convenient local government provided and equality of representation delivered, it is desirable that all local government electors should be able to vote in all local government elections in their area. As I said in Committee, the Electoral Commission stated in January 2004 that it was fundamentally unfair and, in their view, unacceptable that within an individual local authority some electors should have fewer opportunities to vote and influence the political composition of the authority than their neighbours in a different ward. Where there are elections by halves and the wards have two councillors, and where there are elections by thirds and the wards have three councillors, equity of opportunity to electors is provided at the ballot box.

Having said that, I can deal with the noble Lord's specific concerns. If there are elections by thirds and you have three-member wards in the area, all electors will have the opportunity to influence the composition of the council at each election. We believe that that is desirable. Where there are single-member wards and elections by thirds, electors will be able to vote in only one of the three elections held during a four-year electoral cycle. We believe that, where it is possible to avoid this situation, it is desirable to do so.

The noble Lord asked us to clarify when single or two-member wards might be recommended where there are elections by thirds. As I have already explained, decisions in individual areas are for the Electoral Commission to make.

I hope that the rationale behind Clause 56 will be seen as straightforward. It has been drafted to ensure that the Boundary Committee and Electoral Commission will be able to continue to reflect the individual circumstances in each local authority area. The statutory criteria within Section 13 of the Local Government Act states that the committee and commission shall have regard to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities, the need to secure effective and convenient local government, the need to secure equality of representation and the desirability of securing that each ward in the district returns an appropriate number of councillors.

There is a distinction between "need" and "desirability". We have ensured that having the appropriate number of councillors per ward is desirable. If—I think that this is the situation that concerns the noble Lord—the Boundary Committee and the Electoral Commission cannot reflect the community identity and interests of an area and provide equality of representation and effective and convenient local government while providing for the appropriate number of councillors, then we would expect them to recommend a different number of councillors. We agree with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that it is important that electoral arrangements reflect the local circumstances. If, having conducted an electoral review of an area with elections by thirds, consulted local people and considered the evidence before it, the Boundary Committee decides that it is not possible to meet the statutory criteria with anything other than two-member wards, it will be able to recommend that.

We strongly believe that the Boundary Committee and Electoral Commission should at least be required to consider—I emphasise "consider"—whether it is desirable, when weighed against the other statutory criteria, for every elector to vote in every election. Where there are elections by thirds and the Boundary Committee can recommend a two-member or three-member ward and the other statutory criteria can be met by both, we believe that it would be desirable for a three-member ward to be recommended as it would allow the electors in that ward to vote in every election.

Finally, I clarify that this clause does not apply to councils which hold whole-council elections because, where those elections are held, every elector votes in every election once every four years. Noble Lords will recall that councils operating whole-council elections can make a request to the Electoral Commission for an electoral review to provide for single-member wards under Clause 55, if they so choose.

I hope that I have successfully explained why the provisions in Clause 56 have been brought forward. The noble Lord said that this is a small issue but we have tried to give it the justice that it deserves. I appreciate his concern and have attempted to emphasise the important roles of the Boundary Committee and Electoral Commission. I hope that, with that full explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Photo of Lord Greaves Lord Greaves Spokesperson in the Lords, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister's response and for the effort that she has made to engage in a proper discussion of the different issues. I still do not think that the Government have tackled the real questions of community interests and identity which lie behind this. I am grateful for the assurance that "appropriate" and "divisible" mean the same thing in this context and that it is non-judgemental in that sense. That will help.

It is down to the Boundary Committee and the Electoral Commission to come up with recommendations, and they make those recommendations in the context of the legislation. There is absolutely no doubt that if the balance has not been shifted entirely to one end of the spectrum—and I understand from the Minister's comments that that is the case—it has nevertheless shifted some distance along. If this provision is passed, it will not be where it was. That continues to concern me.

I know that the Electoral Commission said that it is fundamentally unfair and unacceptable for some wards not to poll when others do. I have only ever heard that argument from the Electoral Commission. I have never heard anyone in areas that poll by thirds and which have single-member wards in rural areas complain about it. They ask questions such as, "Are we up this year?", and "Why not?", but nobody is marching in the streets waving placards about the issue. It is an academic issue that was invented by the Electoral Commission when it produced this report—which, frankly, everyone thought had been put on a shelf and forgotten about. Although it is a small issue, it is a big one in the 50 or 60 local authorities where it will apply and where in future they will find that the system has changed. And they may not like it. There will not be a huge amount of bother and people will not march in Whitehall with placards when it happens, but some people in some places will be very upset by it. Despite what the Minister has said, which is helpful, I think the Government have been misguided in the wording of this clause.

I shall not press the matter further today. I am not someone who keeps bound copies of Hansard around the walls of my house but occasionally I mark and file away copies in the hope that I will remember where they are when these issues are raised. This is one such issue and I can assure the Minister that her words today may be quoted in the future. I thank her for her answer and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 6 not moved.]

Clause 59 [Change of name of electoral area]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 7:

Clause 59, page 32, line 19, leave out paragraph (b)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 62 [Executive arrangements for England]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 8:

Clause 62, page 35, line 28, leave out subsection (8)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 63 [Discharge of functions]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 9 and 10:

Clause 63, page 36, line 7, at end insert "or"

Clause 63, page 36, line 8, leave out from "(England)," to end of line 9

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 64 [Changing governance arrangements]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 11 to 22:

Clause 64, page 38, leave out line 30

Clause 64, page 38, line 35, leave out from "executive," to end of line 36

Clause 64, page 38, line 44, leave out "or elected executive"

Clause 64, page 39, line 10, leave out "or elected executive"

Clause 64, page 40, line 38, leave out "or an elected executive"

Clause 64, page 41, line 9, leave out "or an elected executive"

Clause 64, page 41, line 21, leave out from beginning to end of line 22

Clause 64, page 41, line 33, leave out from beginning to end of line 38

Clause 64, page 41, line 39, leave out "or elected"

Clause 64, page 41, line 43, leave out from "executive" to end of line 44

Clause 64, page 42, line 3, leave out from "mayor" to end of line 4

Clause 64, page 42, leave out line 15

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 66 [Elected mayors]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 23:

Clause 66, page 43, line 37, leave out subsection (2)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 68 [Power to make incidental, consequential provision etc]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 25 to 28:

Clause 70, page 47, line 40, leave out paragraph (a)

Clause 70, page 48, line 3, leave out paragraphs (c) and (d)

Clause 70, page 48, leave out line 8

Clause 70, page 48, leave out lines 11 and 12

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 74 [Further amendments & transitional provision]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 29:

Clause 74, page 50, line 26, leave out "Schedule 5 (new arrangements for executives: transition provision)" and insert "Schedule (New arrangements for executives: transitional provision)"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 76 [Appointed councillors]:

Photo of Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Scott of Needham Market Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

moved Amendment No. 30:

Clause 76, page 55, line 35, after "appoint" insert "not more than the specified number of"

Photo of Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Scott of Needham Market Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, on Amendments Nos. 30 to 32, I return to the question of appointed parish councillors. Noble Lords will recall that we on these Benches have considerable concerns about this Bill introducing into local government a new category of councillors: appointed councillors. From the start, we need to emphasise that town councils, including parish councils, are a tier of local government and should not be treated as subordinate or lower quality in any way. We therefore need to take any provisions applying to them very seriously indeed.

The National Association of Local Councils does not support this measure. It has said that, while it will work with the Government to make it work, it does not particularly approve of it. I imagine that the national association recognises that it is important in localities that the local council enjoys the moral support of the community it serves. The problem is that it is often not just important to be completely above board, but to be seen to be so. The problem with the appointment process is that there is always a danger that it will be said in local areas that particular individuals were appointed because of who they know or because they already had friends on the council. It is going to be difficult, both for them as individuals and the for the parish council as an entity, to deal with this new category of appointed councillors.

There have been some inconsistencies in remarks from the government Benches. Like my noble friend Lord Greaves, I have been re-reading Hansard. First, through the debates in Committee and on Report, I am still unable to get any sense of who wanted this provision—who has requested it—and what its genesis is. It does not appear to have come from the National Association of Local Councils. Local councils are currently able to use co-option, which is done fairly frequently in areas where, for example, insufficient people put themselves forward after a set of elections; sometimes members are co-opted to make up the numbers. The principle of co-option is well understood, but it is not clear why this new category has appeared. In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, said:

"we should make the difference clearer between those who are elected and those who are not".—[Hansard, 11/7/07; col. 1480.]

We currently have co-opted and elected. The Bill introduces a third category, and I fail to see how the noble Baroness can claim that introducing one makes it clearer to anyone.

I have repeatedly asked the Government to explain what an appointed councillor will be able to do that a co-opted councillor will not. The answer I have had is that appointment will be for those who are not eligible for co-option; the one example has been for under-18-year-olds, who can be appointed to a council. I am sure that that is very well and good, although it will be interesting to see how many are in fact appointed to parish councils in a year or two's time. Beyond that, the Government have not been able to give any examples of the sort of people who could come forward for appointment and not co-option. I am concerned about, for example, whether people will still have to be resident in the area or whether they could be drafted in from some distance outside.

There is another inconsistency because, although it is not in the Bill, we have been led to understand that one of the criteria by which a parish council will be judged good enough for quality parish status will be the health of its governance arrangements. Again, it is difficult to get a sense of good governance arrangements and mandate if a number of the councillors are going to be appointed.

We do not know how many people will be allowed to be appointed onto a parish council. In Committee, my noble friend Lord Greaves asked the Minister whether it is going to be a third. The Minister said that the Government imagined something rather less than a third. The point is that we do not know because it is not in the Bill and is left to regulation.

Despite the clearly stated reservations of the delegated powers sub-committee, the negative procedure will be used when the secondary legislation comes through. That means very low level parliamentary scrutiny of the details of the Bill. We on these Benches feel that it would be better to have in the Bill at least the modest provision that the number of appointed councillors will always remain very small. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, we are not wholly against appointed councillors, and we have not been. However, we need to be sure that safeguards about this will appear in secondary legislation. I assume—but maybe I am incorrect—that there is a difference between co-opted and appointed members. In general, members are co-opted on to specific committees, such as social services or education, because they have specific expertise. Appointed members could be used to fill places when there is a not a full slate of candidates at an election. We want reassurance that appointed councillors will not be supernumerary to the council to any great extent and that they will make up gaps that have not been filled during an election or there will be a cap on the number that can be appointed. We need reassurance.

I am not as strongly against this as the Liberals, and I shall not support them if they go to a vote, but we need to be sure that secondary legislation will spell this out in the sort of detail required to answer the questions that have been raised. I do not think you can have appointed councils. If there is a parish council of 25, it is clearly ridiculous to have 25 appointed councillors. You either have to have a limited number to make up the 25, or it has to be said that there cannot be more than two or three, as is the case with co-opted members. We seek reassurance from the Minister that there will be proper controls over this and proper structures by which appointed councillors can be appointed. The trouble about under-18s is that they become 18 very quickly, so whether they would be allowed to carry on once they are over 18 is another question.

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, I hope that I can offer the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the reassurance that she is looking for, but I feel that I will disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. I am aware that she is unhappy with these proposals, and I hope that I can reassure her. We had full discussions on this matter in Committee and on Report, and I support the comments made by my noble friend Lady Crawley at earlier stages of the Bill. I shall reiterate a couple of her comments, but we have discussed this principle.

When we considered this clause in Committee, my noble friend Lady Crawley gave assurances about the regulations that we have in mind for this clause. In particular, she said that,

"the regulations we will bring forward will ensure that the number of appointees in any parish council can only be small. By small, I mean no more than one or two in most councils. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, talked about larger market town councils. We would consider a figure of three or four appropriate for such councils".—[Hansard, 11/7/07; col. 1484.]

She was clear that we are talking about a small number of appointees.

We have also said that we are working with the sector on the regulations. I believe that they will offer the proper safeguards and controls that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, is looking for. It is important that they are being developed with the sector. That is continuing, and we want to establish a clear view on this before bringing regulations to this House for full and proper scrutiny, if that is what the House wants to see. In those circumstances, having stressed that we have discussed this extensively already, I am not persuaded that it is either necessary or desirable to put these specific rules in the Bill.

I believe that there is actually not very much between us. I understand that the noble Baroness does not support this measure, but, given that we have already decided that the measure is staying in the Bill, I would prefer it if the Government could work through the details properly with organisations representing parishes and town councils.

I will deal with some of the specific points raised. We need to be clear that co-optees are co-opted to a vacant parish council position, and that appointees—although we are talking about a small number—would be appointed for a shorter period of time. On the point that an under 18-year old is not under 18 for very long, we would not expect them to be appointed for more than a year. I think it is very clear that councillors who are co-opted become councillors, whereas with the development of the regulations we would envisage that appointees would not, for example, be expected to chair important committees.

The role of the appointed parish councillor is, as we have said in the past, to ensure that particular skills can be brought to the council where it feels they are lacking; to deal with an issue about diversity if the council feels that it is lacking in a particular diverse group; and, as we have heard, to involve young people. This route could be used to ensure that young people become involved in a parish council.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, particularly pointed out that the National Association of Local Councils does not approve of this measure. I am advised that, particularly when we are talking about the involvement of young people, 16 to 18 year-olds, there is support for the use of the appointed route to promote the involvement of young people.

There is support for this measure. I recognise noble Lords' concerns that we need to have in place proper controls and safeguards. That is why the Government are working with stakeholders to develop regulations that will be brought before both Houses. We are talking about small numbers. I understand that people would be concerned if parish councils were going to be swamped by appointees; but that is absolutely not going to be the case. This is about adding value to parish councils should they wish to do that.

With that reassurance I hope that the noble Baroness will consider withdrawing her amendment.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, can she clear up a slight confusion over whether these regulations will be under the affirmative or negative procedure? The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, was quite clear that it would be negative and therefore the matter would not come back to the House. The Minister has now said that it will be considered by the House. It would helpful to know what the procedure is going to be.

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, if I may clarify that point, the procedure will be negative.

Photo of Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Scott of Needham Market Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government 5:15 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee certainly had something to say about the fact that these changes would be brought forward without the House having a full opportunity to debate them.

I want to remark briefly on the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. Her experience on principal councils is the reverse of the situation in parish councils in that they do not co-opt people to serve on sub-committees but do so in order to make up the numbers where an insufficient number of people have put their names forward. I am not clear from our debate about the status of these new councillors with regard to the number of councillors on a parish council. Parish councils cannot increase or decrease their size willy-nilly, they are set in local statutes. They have to apply to the district council to vary the numbers. None of our debates has made it clear where appointed councillors would fit in. It is very clear where co-optees stand, but this is a new category and we do not know the position. I am concerned not just about the principle of appointment, but the practice. It may be possible for appointed councillors to replace elected councillors. We have not had a full debate about that.

I remain profoundly unhappy about this measure. However small, parish councils are local government units. As I have said before in debates—

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, I should like to try to make this clear. We do not envisage that appointed councillors will replace co-opted councillors. A co-opted councillor takes a full councillor position. Appointed councillors are not the same; they have a shorter term of office which will be set out in regulations. They are extra to the council and will be there to add skills and experience and to enhance diversity. They are not there to replace co-opted councillors, and certainly not in any way to replace elected councillors.

Photo of Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Scott of Needham Market Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for clarifying the point. Nevertheless, I and my colleagues on these Benches remain concerned that what we have here, albeit on a micro scale, is a constitutional change. It introduces appointees to what have previously been democratically elected bodies, and to leave all the detail to regulations is not satisfactory. This provision has been brought in with just a few lines in the Bill, with the detail left to secondary legislation. As we know, parliamentary scrutiny is not always of the quality that your Lordships would like to see. Therefore I wish to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 30) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 54; Not-Contents, 147.

Division number 2 Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

Aye: 52 Members of the House of Lords

No: 145 Members of the House of Lords

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Clause 76 [Appointed councillors]:

[Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 not moved.]

Clause 87 [Constitution of new parish]:

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip 5:28 pm, 22nd October 2007

moved Amendment No. 33:

Clause 87, page 61, line 9, leave out from "aggregating" to end of line 10 and insert "one or more unparished areas with one or more parished areas."

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, this is a technical amendment to give effect to the policy that my noble friend Baroness Crawley set out in Committee and on Report. At Report, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, tabled Amendment No. 163A, to what is now Clause 94, on recommendations to create parish councils. My noble friend explained to the House that Clause 94(3) does not apply to existing parishes and, therefore, where an existing parish with a parish council has 150 or fewer electors, it would be able to continue to have a parish council.

The noble Lord also asked at Report whether an existing parish, if it were altered, would be treated as a new parish or an existing parish. As the Bill is drafted, an altered parish would in most cases be treated as an existing parish, because the alteration of existing parishes is dealt with under Clause 88. However, a loophole in Clause 87 has been brought to our attention, principally by the noble Lord and his thorough questioning, whereby an existing parish which has an unparished area added to it would have been treated as a new parish. We are therefore amending Clause 87 to close this loophole, so that an existing parish that has an unparished area added to it will be treated as an existing parish under Clause 88.

This is all very technical, and I hope that I am not being boring and confusing, but I can assure the House that the effect is to ensure that where parish councils currently exist in a parish with 150 or fewer electors, the parish council can continue in existence. The amendment ensures that the Bill delivers the policy objective that we set out in earlier discussions. I hope that noble Lords will find the amendment acceptable. I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Greaves Lord Greaves Spokesperson in the Lords, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I read these government amendments and thought they were fairly sensible. I could not explain the detailed technicalities as the Minister has done but I congratulate the Government on seeing sense on the matter. This kind of thing will affect only a few people in a few places on a few occasions, but it is important. In view of what the Minister said, I shall definitely keep on file a copy of today's proceedings in Hansard.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 34 and 35:

Clause 87, page 61, line 13, at end insert—

"but the aggregation of one or more unparished areas with a single parish is not the constitution of a new parish."

Clause 87, page 61, line 14, after "(2)" insert—

""parished area" means an area which—

(a) is a parish, or(b) is part of a parish."

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 88 [Existing parishes under review]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 36:

Clause 88, page 62, line 4, at end insert—

"(b) references to the alteration of an area of a parish are references to any alteration which is not the constitution of a new parish (within the meaning of section 87(2))."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 94 [Recommendations to create parish councils]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 37 and 38:

Clause 94, page 64, line 11, at end insert—

"( ) But subsection (3) does not apply if any part of the parish mentioned in subsection (1) is currently—

(a) a parish which has a council, or(b) part of such a parish."

Clause 94, page 64, line 12, leave out "In any other case" and insert "If neither subsection (2) nor (3) applies"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 106 [Duty to prepare and submit draft of a local area agreement]:

Photo of Lord Tyler Lord Tyler Liberal Democrat

moved Amendment No. 39:

Clause 106, page 71, line 44, at end insert—

"( ) If a responsible local authority so requests, the Secretary of State shall make a direction under subsection (1)."

Photo of Lord Tyler Lord Tyler Liberal Democrat

My Lords, in moving this amendment I want to emphasise on behalf of my noble friends that we take the Government's intentions as stated very seriously and at face value. Their words at least are encouraging. We want to be sure that there is recognition of what they are intending for the important future relationship between central and local government. I have attended the House throughout various stages of the Bill and have noted how often the Minister, who is in her place, prayed in aid flexibility. I have not done a check but I suspect that that word has been used on almost every occasion that she has come to the Dispatch Box. Now we turn to the vital question of how flexibly the Government intend to treat the local area agreements. As I am sure noble Lords will recognise, this issue is a crucial part of the Bill at this stage of its parliamentary consideration.

If local area agreements are to be as flexible and effective as we must all hope they will be, they must be dynamic, locally responsive and constantly monitored by the partners themselves—not by the Government or outsiders—to ensure that they are appropriate to changing local needs. That must be true especially for the new unitary authorities. The Minister will recognise that the Bill had its inception and most of its consideration before we were even aware of who might be considered for new unitary status. It is therefore extremely important that this exercise proceed with careful consideration alongside that exercise and that we have in place unitary authorities that are able to take full advantage of good local area agreements.

Although I have in mind specifically my own part of the country, Cornwall, what I have to say may be appropriate also to Durham, Northumberland, Shropshire and Wiltshire, which are all major county councils with considerable responsibilities. As they attain unitary status—which is not yet confirmed, though we hope it will be in a matter of weeks—there will be a very good case for ensuring they are able to take full advantage of the Bill's provisions on LAAs.

Noble Lords will note in Clause 104, which has been accepted on all sides of the House, the remarkable number of partner authorities. There is a huge range, and rightly so. We want the principal local authorities—the main partners—to be able to work closely with a great many other deliverers of local services. I know that there is general acceptance across the parties, at local and national levels, that this opportunity must not be missed. In the words of the chairman of the Local Government Association, we should all be,

"pushing the boundaries of LAAs for more devolution".

Surely the Government must have that in mind.

It is already envisaged that there should be strong local partnerships with the police and with health delivery agents. I have always thought it extraordinary that although the public rate the National Health Service and the prevention of crime as the most important local considerations, those are the services which are not subject in any way to local accountability. I used to be a member of a police authority because I was an elected councillor; these days, police authority members are appointed by the Home Secretary. If you want to complain about the National Health Service you will have to go to the Secretary of State, the only democratically-elected accountable person. So this is a small step towards greater accountability at a local level and I am sure that we all welcome it. It is also true that the Bill and the Government's proposals provide for a transfer of accountability for education of 16 to 18 year-olds from the learning and skills councils to top-tier councils. That, too, is a very healthy step.

However, what about transport planning and economic development? It is extremely important that we should see those issues in this context as well. In an interesting Statement, the Minister for Communities and Local Government, Mr John Healey, said:

"The report also reflects the Prime Minister's vision of a modern democracy, in which power is exercised at the lowest level, and those with power are held more clearly to account".

He continued:

"We will require regional development agencies to delegate funding to local authorities and sub-regions whenever possible so that they play a more strategic role".—[Hansard, Commons, 17/7/07; col. 161-62.]

My colleague in the other place—indeed, my successor as Member of Parliament for North Cornwall—said to the Minister:

"Will he take seriously the aspirations of the people of Cornwall to have a greater say over their affairs, especially given the ambitious proposals for a unified structure of local government in the area? Also, will he look again at the case for a locally accountable Cornish development agency, in light of the important convergence funding from the EU?".

The Minister, Mr John Healey, responded:

"Cornwall still faces some significant economic challenges. It has been greatly transformed by the objective 1 funding that it has received, and by some of the measures that the South West regional development agency has put in place. I take the hon. Gentleman's comments as another late representation to be considered as part of my work on local government restructuring.".—[Hansard, Commons, 17/7/07; col. 172.]

My noble friends and I wish to hear a clear statement today in the light of the fact that these changes in the relationship between local and central government are happening outwith this Bill and the recognition that this legislation relates to those changes.

Another important development in recent weeks is that the Treasury—which has never before been seen as particularly keen on devolution—has taken the lead in publishing so-called proposals for a sub-national review. Where in the country can one see a distinct, historic and geographical identity? Areas such as Cornwall and Northumberland are clearly sub-regions in that sense. Unlike the Conservative economic regions, which are so anomalous in relation to these problems and so diverse internally that they do not make much sense in this regard, they are not artificial creations.

Subsidiarity, an ugly word but an important concept, is now accepted on all sides of your Lordships' House as an extremely important part of this legislation and the Government's other proposals. Perhaps we should define Subsidiarity and—in the context of taking decisions as close as possible to those whom they affect—get a government statement on precisely how the LAAs will be initiated. They should not come down from Whitehall but should come up from the partners on the ground.

I hope that the new local area agreements will be used as the excellent test beds they could be for more local decision-making in the future. Why not ask them to undertake pilot projects in important directions? Why not try out a local income tax to replace the failed Conservative council tax model? A bit more pilot experimentation in this field might save the Government a great deal of trouble.

At the centre of the issue, the amendment and this part of the Bill is our belief that the Government's talk of empowering local communities and individual citizens, excellent though it sounds, must mean empowering elected councils and councillors. In the very interesting The Governance of Britain, the first Green Paper produced by the new Prime Minister in the summer, the executive summary said:

"The Government will ... enable local people to hold service providers to account".

Paragraph 179 said:

"The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will now work with the Local Government Association to establish a concordat to govern the relations between central and local Government".

Concordats are not always a terribly successful method of getting agreement. Sometimes they are challenged, even by Members of this House. But at this stage, we have no idea what that concordat will mean. What is its relevance in this context? If the Bill does not even give local elected representatives the prime initiative—the prime lead role—in developing appropriate local area agreements for their area, that spells disaster for any attempt to make the proposed concordat an evenly balanced agreement with subsidiarity at its heart.

I hope that everybody in your Lordships' House now agrees that the man—or, indeed, the woman—in Whitehall does not always know best. I hope that the Minister will not take that as a personal challenge but will reassure us that the Government understand the importance of the issue. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, this is a refreshing return to some of the fundamental principles in the Bill. I could not agree more with the noble Lord in that I do not for a moment believe that Whitehall knows best. The thrust, burden and tone of the Bill and of the debate at each stage of our proceedings has been to reinforce and verify the fact that Whitehall does not know best but is in a more balanced partnership with local government which can reflect the real needs of the local community. That is reflected, in some ways, in local area agreements against the background of the country as a whole and its needs.

The noble Lord was quite right that the Bill is about empowering local communities and local councillors. Various provisions celebrate the role of local councillors and strengthen their visibility. I shall talk about the community call for action in a moment. The Government started this process with the White Paper; and the Roberts commission will now take us there in terms of the quality and scope of the people we want to see in local government and the tasks they have to undertake. Two arguments flow from that: the noble Lord deployed the wider argument in relation to the new unitaries but also about the making of place. So much has been said about place-making in recent months, led by Michael Lyons, who introduced the term. I believe it is powerful and effective to talk about making places; the partnerships which are reflected in the Bill and the local area agreements are about people coming together to say what they want about the place they live in and agreeing on how they deliver that through local government, now working in much more explicit and determined partnerships.

Beyond place-making in the local area, the noble Lord talked about other things that we have addressed in the Bill. How do we work beyond a local area so that the sub-region and all its natural contours can also be reflected in the devolution of power in the making of, for example, multi-area agreements, which will grow from the local area agreements? My honourable friend in another place talked about the disposition of power to make something of the sub-region—transport, of course, has a particular relevance, but there are other factors outside local areas as well.

I agree with the noble Lord; he is right to raise those points. He is also right to remind me of the power of the term "flexibility" and its incidence in our discussions. There is nothing more flexible than the local area agreement. It represents degrees of flexibility between partners and between local partners and local government through regional offices in the design of the future. He referred to dynamism and the responsiveness to local need and local vision. That is absolutely right. Considering the partnerships, the nature of places, the diversity and strengths as well as the real needs and challenges gives us an understanding of what the local area agreement is really about.

That takes me to the question in the amendment about the nature of the debate on local area agreements. Who makes the local area agreement and on what terms? This will come up in the next amendment. The essential point about the local area agreement, as we have discussed at every stage, is that it is locally driven. Its most distinctive feature is a negotiation between local partnerships and central government. It will be the only place that central government and local government will meet in the future to discuss the relationship between the overarching needs of the country as a whole, the economic, social and environmental pressures that we face, and the local area.

The idea that there is a built-in conflict or opposition between national and local objectives is contrary to common sense and to practice. That practice has already been tested in the 17 local partnerships which are developing. Whether the needs of the nation include better healthcare or greater success in schools, they will be settled at the local level to reflect the real challenges that that local community faces. I believe that the Bill strikes the right balance between local authorities and partners. We cannot take central government out of the picture; it is where local government and national government now meet to discuss national priorities and how they will be reflected in local action.

We have stripped down the number of indicators from 1,200 to 200 and the performance regime has been lightened. Essentially, an agreement should be genuinely driven by what local people want and say they need, working in partnership to deliver it.

Sheffield wants to tackle health inequalities by setting a target to increase life expectancy. It is doing well against the national average; therefore, it may not be necessary to designate this and make it a national target. But Sheffield wants to continue improving health equalities, so it could decide in the course of negotiations to include a more stretching or demanding local target. National government concerned about obesity or care of the elderly—whatever the 200 top indicators will be—will ask local authorities what really matters in the area and what they need to monitor and designate in terms of national ambitions. They will ask the local area to tell them what it thinks is most important so that they can work it out together. That has been happening all over the country over the past three to six months, as people have begun to work through these processes. It is innovative and challenging, but as a result we will get something that the local community can believe in and deliver, recognising that these things matter to all of us nationally.

Amendment No. 39 would allow a draft local area agreement to be initiated either at the direction of the Secretary of State or at the direction of the Secretary of State if requested by the responsible authority. Clause 106, on the other hand, allows only for a local area agreement to be initiated by the Secretary of State. That is more a technical provision than anything else. It is obviously critical that there is a clear and agreed process and timetable by which LAAs will be negotiated and signed off, and introducing two possible routes for initiating an LAA—one at the discretion of the local authority— would cause genuine confusion in the process.

Clause 106 sets out that this process will formally be at the direction of the Secretary of State but we will elaborate on this in guidance. That guidance, significantly, is being developed collaboratively—for example, with the Local Government Association—and will set out the process and the timetable. That is significant because the partnership with LGA runs through the Bill and the noble Lord, who has spoken passionately about Cornwall, knows that local authorities are keen to do this. They see the local area agreement—and, in time, they will come to see the multi-area agreement—as offering huge possibilities of new ways of working and a much better chance of success, whether that is in reducing the rates of teenage pregnancy or in reducing the stubborn pockets of worklessness that we still have in some affluent areas.

With that in mind, I hope the noble Lord is confident that the debate has addressed the issues that he raised and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Photo of Lord Tyler Lord Tyler Liberal Democrat 5:45 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister's comments; she has entirely fulfilled my expectation. She has made as mollifying and positive contribution as she has on previous parts of the Bill. However, I worry when I hear that there is a technical reason for what otherwise seems to be a simple statement of the obvious. She says that local authorities will be very much involved in the preparation of LAAs—I understand that—but we wanted to have that in the Bill. She has used all the right phrases to try to make me feel better about this and I appreciate that.

The Minister has spoken of the way in which the partnerships may operate; I accept that. She accepts that sub-regions may well be the right units for looking at transport and economic planning issues; I agree with that. Indeed, I am worried when Ministers say that they absolutely agree with me—it makes me think that perhaps I have made a mistake—but on this occasion I understand precisely why she is saying that. My worry is that it is one thing to say—and this will be on the official record—that this a locally-driven agreement, but when we seek to put that in the Bill it appears not to be possible to do so. She said that it is not possible to take central government out of the picture, but that is not what we were intending to do. We simply wanted to make sure that the responsible authority as defined in the Bill should be able to seek an LAA definition.

There is still a flavour of a top-down bureaucratic approach here. I take everything the Minister says and I understand it, but I am sure my noble friends and other Members of your Lordships' House will want to make sure that when the guidance comes forward it is not just putting on paper a firm conviction that the man or woman in Whitehall knows best. However, I appreciate the care the noble Baroness has taken and the assurances she has given us and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 108 [Duty to have regard to local improvement targets]:

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

moved Amendment No. 40:

Clause 108, page 72, line 40, leave out "107(2)" and insert "112"

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, I can be reasonably brief. These are Report stage amendments which were withdrawn by agreement because they were confused with others.

The amendments seek to ensure that the Secretary of State does not meddle with any targets once they have been agreed by local authorities. We have bandied around the numbers of targets set by central government. We were hoping that there would be no more than 35; the Minister will not put them in the Bill but we are all assuming that the number will be limited. Once the Secretary of State has set his or her target, these amendments would prevent the Secretary of State arbitrarily changing any other targets within agreements. He will be able to make changes only to national targets, leaving local targets alone. Local authorities have a plethora of targets imposed from central government. Therefore, once central government have resisted the temptation to produce any more, any changes should be limited only to those targets set by the Secretary of State, leaving the local authorities to deal with their own targets. That is basically the amendment. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I feel that I have answered most of these amendments previously and I try not to repeat myself. I appreciate the spirit in which the noble Baroness has moved the amendments and the seriousness with which we have debated over the past three stages the relationship between local and central government, but the amendments would have the effect of destroying that partnership by removing the key partner. We would be left with a situation in which local authorities would be dictating to central government what central government's priorities were, which would be unbalanced and unrealistic.

The most interesting feature of an LAA is the requirement for discussion-based negotiations between local partnerships and central government. We believe the right balance has been struck and that we cannot take the responsibility away from central government; it will be the only way in which central government can signal priorities and involve individual localities. It sits alongside the significant decision to strip down the national indicators from 1,200 to 200, which has been much welcomed by local government. Along with that, the performance regime has been lightened to meet the real risks and challenges and it now has far greater freedom to determine how to meet local needs.

The problem with the noble Baroness's amendments is that they would pre-judge the negotiations that have already begun and will go on over the next six months. We have already made clear in the operational guidance that we published on 18 September that these new style LAAs will have to have robust and open negotiation at their hearts. The effect of the amendments would be to try to distinguish prior to the approval of targets the ones which are of local interest and those which are of national interest. We presume a conflict of interest, which I addressed previously, because I do not see why that should be seen to be the case; it is a false distinction. The effect of the amendments will be that from within the draft LAA local partners will need to specify which targets are of national interest.

There is a presumption that the Secretary of State is a tyrannical figure dictating to localities rather than negotiating with them. That is not the case. We are talking here about the role of the regional officers, a collection of delightful and efficient people who are well known in the locality and know the area well. There will be priorities that they will want to tackle and there will be total agreement on the fact that they are both locally and centrally important. As I said, the priorities may be reducing worklessness or may be improving school standards; they will be different in different areas. It will depend on the circumstances of each case whether or not they are designated as national targets. Essentially, those will be the only targets which are reported on because the local targets, the non-designated targets, will not have to be reported on. If we removed the Secretary of State from the process, we would have a purely local agreement. Within that, local authorities would not find themselves totally free of central government's priorities, health and welfare; what they would find was that central government departments would employ their own individual targets for each authority along with separate performance management, so we would be back to a situation in which there were far more targets and far more—I would not say anarchy—but individual negotiation. We are trying to get away from that sort of situation. In the kindest spirit I suggest that what noble Lords propose is not only unrealistic but actually means that we would have to turn away from those genuine improvements that we have made to reduce the role of local government and which we see now in the LAAs, which introduce a new and better way of doing things and have been welcomed.

I hope that the noble Baroness will accept those arguments. She has been valiant in her championing of local targets and local authorities, as I always suspect she will be, but I hope that she can now withdraw her amendment.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs 6:00 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. We may see government officers in a slightly different light, and I am not entirely sure that across local government the Minister's bright view will be accepted. However, as she says we have had quite a lot of debate on this matter. It is now going to be a question of sucking it and seeing whether the provision is going to work in the right way. I hope that all the words that the Minister has spoken today and on other occasions to the effect that the Secretary of State will have a light-touch regime will be borne out—and borne out by all those regional officers. That is where the negotiations will take place, so the Secretary of State's view must be passed down to them. I am sure that it will be, but we shall wait and see. I have taken this as far as I can go and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 110 [Revision and addition of targets]:

[Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 not moved.]

Clause 111 [Designated targets: revision proposals]:

[Amendments Nos. 43 to 48 not moved.]

Clause 121 [Powers to require information from partner authorities]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 49:

Clause 121, page 83, line 25, leave out from "matters" to end of line 26 and insert "in relation to which the committee has functions under or by virtue of section 19.""

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, throughout the passage of the Bill it has been clear that, subject to some discussion of details, there has been a broad consensus that Clause 119 is on the right lines. At the moment, the only councillors who can refer matters to an overview and scrutiny committee are the members of that committee itself. That straightforward measure enables any elected councillor to bring an issue of local concern to the overview and scrutiny committee and have it discussed to see whether a way forward can be suggested. That committee has substantial powers to look into such matters, and elsewhere in this Bill we are adding to those powers. That is a big step forward for the local councillor.

So this is an enabling measure. However, as we have explained many times, we decided not to seek to place a duty on local councillors to consider matters that are put to them by local people, nor to require them to respond. Given the very wide range of issues that councillors have before them, we could not see that it would be sensible to do that. Indeed, we felt—and I think this is common ground—that such a duty would be unsupportable in practice and that therefore it was better to rely on councillors' good judgment and energy to sift through and, where possible, resolve such issues as they become aware of them. That is all part of a councillor's normal role, as noble Lords pointed out to me several times, with increasing asperity. Additionally, the new power that we provide will make them more effective local champions—that is, the power to demand committee consideration of problems where they feel it would help.

In this context, there has been continuing concern about the related measure passed by Parliament a year ago but which has not yet been brought into force. That is the part of Section 19 of the Police and Justice Act 2006 that deals with the consideration of local crime and disorder matters by councillors. In that context, Parliament has already taken a different view. This provision also empowered the councillor to take a matter to an overview and scrutiny committee—in this case the committee created by the Police and Justice Act, the crime and disorder committee. However, in addition, we also placed a duty on councillors both to consider all local crime and disorder matters put to them by local people, and to respond.

In broad terms, Section 19 gave the committee two roles. First, it gave a strategic role in that it is required to maintain oversight of the work of the crime and disorder reduction partnerships in preparing and executing crime and disorder reduction strategies for the area. Secondly, it gave a tactical role in that, as I have said, it is required to consider local crime and disorder matters referred to it by local councillors. The power given to local people to demand consideration of such an issue by a councillor is reinforced by a right of appeal, given by Section 19(4), to the executive of the council. That comes into play if the councillor declines to refer the matter to the crime and disorder committee him or herself. The executive of the council is then required, likewise, to consider the matter; and is similarly empowered to refer it to the crime and disorder committee.

Ministers have argued in both Houses for the distinct treatment of local crime and disorder matters on the grounds that, although obviously more burdensome—and we did not deny that—the complications were justified where matters of community safety were concerned. On the other hand, the local government community, noble Lords in this House and Members of the House of Commons have argued that having two models for community call for action would in practice be too confusing for the public and for local councillors and officers. It has also been argued that the burden that the Police and Justice Act places on councillors will put many councillors under unnecessary pressure and will require support from local officials which will take resources away from work that might add more value. It has been argued, too, that the power to launch an appeal to the executive is possibly an expensive luxury that will take up too much time.

We had some very good debates on this matter at earlier stages and have listened very carefully. We have come to the conclusion that, although we think the scope for confusion is modest, we are persuaded that we should accept the strong views held outside and inside this House and adjust the Police and Justice Act to bring it into line with the provisions in this Bill. That is the main thrust of the amendments I am now proposing, with some minor consequential amendments. To be quite clear, what we intend by way of our amendment is that the power given to a councillor to refer a local crime and disorder matter to the crime and disorder committee will remain. However, the duty placed on the councillor to respond to a person who lives or works in the councillor's electoral area will be dropped and, therefore, so will the related necessity for an appeal to the executive.

We are minded to change our policy for a reason above and beyond the force of the arguments that I have heard in this House. In addition, we have set out, in the Green Paper entitled The Governance of Britain, an agenda for taking forward democratic and constitutional reforms in future. Some of those proposals are aimed at the local level and will seek to take further empowerment of communities to influence public decision-making. One example is the proposed duty on local authorities to respond to some petitions. All these ideas are to be subject to consultation and discussion in some form or other. For the time being, it seems sensible to clear the ground by making the so-called "community call for action" as simple and consistent as possible, by focusing it entirely on the empowerment of elected councillors to act as advocates for their own communities. Indeed, I would argue that the result might more appropriately be called a "councillor call for action".

I shall take noble Lords through the proposed amendments. Let me acknowledge that they look a good deal more complicated than the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and others at earlier stages of the Bill, but this is more apparent than real. In drafting the amendments, we had to keep in mind the fact that the Police and Justice Act created a new and somewhat separate overview and scrutiny regime for crime and disorder. The fact is reflected elsewhere in the Bill, in Clauses 127, 128 and 129, for example. We need to do as little as possible to disturb that, because the arrangements in the Police and Justice Act were designed to provide oversight of a statutory partnership. But we wish to provide for the alignment on community calls for action, so we concluded that the best way to handle that would be to replicate as far as appropriate the provisions of the new Section 21A of the Local Government Act 2000 in the Police and Justice Act.

We have also taken the opportunity to make some other peripheral changes to the handling of local crime and disorder matters. The first is that we have aligned the definition of a local crime and disorder matter more closely with that of a local government matter, so that it is a matter that affects a member's electoral area or the people who live or work there. The present definition refers to crime and disorder in the area, and this seems unduly restrictive. Secondly, we have made the revised community call for action procedure for crime and disorder available to county as well as district councillors in a two-tier area. The current Section 19(3) applies it only to districts in such an area.

The reasoning behind this was to avoid a situation in which individual citizens could go from councillor to councillor, looking for one who would take a matter up. The change that we now propose brings the procedure for local crime and disorder matters into line with that for local government matters. We are content to rely on guidance to ensure that authorities in two-tier areas should expect to work together, avoiding a situation in which different crime and disorder committees produce conflicting reports on the same issue. I should add that, elsewhere in this Bill, we are providing for restructuring and the result will be that some counties will become unitary authorities. It would be odd if their councillors could bring local crime and disorder matters to their committee but councillors in counties where there are district councils could not. The change that we are making will remove this anomaly.

We have taken the opportunity to make it clear that the local authorities themselves, as well as the responsible authorities comprising the CDRP, are under a duty to consider, respond to and have regard to a crime and disorder committee's reports. This is consistent with new Section 21B, which we are introducing via Clause 128. It appears to have been an oversight in the drafting of Section 19 originally.

On the amendments, new subsection (3) brings the arrangements for crime and disorder committees, so far as they concern local crime and disorder matters, into line with the Local Government Act 2000 as we are amending it. Those arrangements must enable any member of the authority to refer a local crime and disorder matter to the committee; Section 19(4) defines what that means. It mirrors exactly the provision in Clause 119 for local government matters.

Similarly, subsection (6) mirrors, with necessary modifications, the proposed new subsection (6) of Section 21A. It enables the committee to have regard to any delegated powers that the councillor might have thought of exercising, and provides that it may have regard to any representations that the member may make. Subsection (7) provides for transparency in the committee's decision-making, in the same terms as the proposed new Section 21A(7). Subsection (8) applies to all the business of the committee, not just to local crime and disorder matters referred by individual members. It therefore preserves the existing provision of Section 19 covering the provision of copies of the committee's reports to the responsible authorities, but adds that a copy must go also to the member who referred a local crime and disorder matter.

New subsections (8A) and (8B) cover the behaviour of authorities, bodies or persons to whom the committee has sent a report or recommendations, or a copy of them. It preserves the requirements on those organisations set out in Section 19(8) to consider, respond to and have regard to these reports in exercising their functions. New subsection (3) makes consequential amendments within Section 19. New subsection (4) redefines "local crime and disorder matter" to align it as closely as possible with "local government matter" in new Section 21A of the LGA 2000.

New subsections (5) to (7) make minor and consequential amendments to Section 20 of the Police and Justice Act. We propose to delete the "in particular" references to procedure and time limits for dealing with references by individual members to crime and disorder committees. This will further align it with Section 21A of the 2000 Act where, for "local government matters", we have been content to assume that the "arrangements" that local authorities are required to put in place will cover such matters locally. There are several consequential amendments to Clauses 121, 122 and 123.

Finally, in relation to Wales, the amendment to Clause 242 will preserve the existing position with regard to Section 19 of the Police and Justice Act, Section 53(6) of which provides that Sections 19 and 20 and Schedule 8 come into force in Wales in accordance with provision made by order by the National Assembly for Wales.

I am conscious that that was a long explanation, but given its importance I thought that noble Lords would appreciate having the detail in Hansard. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs 6:15 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for the effort that has been put into this matter. We have been trying to see our way through it throughout our consideration of the Bill, and the Local Government Association and local authorities are very concerned about it. I understand that the Local Government Association is now content with what has been done. We always thought that it would be right to bring the Police and Justice Act under the local government Bill in this respect. However, reading the provision as carefully as I can, I think that the Police and Justice Act, given the way in which it has been amended, does what the local government Bill would have done—crime and disorder matters have been brought under it.

However, I have a question for the Minister. I seek to clarify that the words "crime and disorder committee" appear in the Police and Justice Act 2006. As regards a local authority, we need to be clear that a crime and disorder committee is a scrutiny committee that oversees crime and disorder. I assume that that will be different in the various local authorities. In some it will be Cabinet overview and scrutiny; in others it will be a specific committee. However, we need to be clear that the local authority will not have to establish a specific crime and disorder committee. I say for the benefit of Hansard that the Minister is nodding in agreement to that view; that will save the Minister from having to respond. I thank her for that.

We are now where we wanted to be; the community calls for action are tied up and can be dealt with in exactly the same way through both these pieces of legislation. Therefore, I need say no more other than again to thank the Minister. We discussed this during the Recess. An enormous amount of work has been done since then, which I very much appreciate.

Photo of Lord Greaves Lord Greaves Spokesperson in the Lords, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I wish to ask the Minister a question to clarify something in my mind. Where there is a crime and disorder committee by whatever name at a district level in a two-tier area, does the new system mean that references to that committee can be made by either a district councillor or a county councillor? Is that what is being put forward? It seems to me entirely sensible, but it is a question that I should like to be answered. As I understand it, crime and disorder committees in two-tier areas will exist in some form at both the county and district level, and so the right to refer is not being taken away from district councillors at a district level but will apply also to county councillors to that district level committee. Is that the case?

Photo of Lord Harris of Haringey Lord Harris of Haringey Labour

My Lords, before my noble friend responds to the points that have been made, I should declare an interest as a vice-president of the Association of Police Authorities and as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority. I apologise to your Lordships for this being my first intervention on this very interesting Bill, which I have followed with enormous interest, particularly some of the more arcane points, of which this is no doubt one.

It is a relief to see the marvellous way in which joined-up government operates. I recall that during the debates on the clause that we are now amending in the Police and Justice Bill I sought assurances from the noble Lord who took that Bill through the House that what was being offered in terms of overview and scrutiny and the community call for action would be consistent with the local government Bill that we had been promised would be introduced in this Session. That Bill is now before us. My noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton assured us that there had been lots of talk between the relevant government departments and that what would be proposed would be consistent. Presumably, we can be assured that my noble friend's amendment has been discussed with all the relevant government departments and that there is a feeling that this is totally joined up and that everyone is working together on precisely this point.

I noticed that on 6 July my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton said on behalf of the Government in respect of this issue:

"The Secretary of State continues to offer assurances that we still believe it appropriate to include the police authority on the overview and scrutiny committee functions, and the regulation-making power in Clause 18"— whatever that might have been at the time—

"allows for that flexibility".—[Hansard, 6/7/06; col. 391.]

I should be grateful if my noble friend could clarify whether there will continue to be an expectation that police authority members will be involved in the crime and disorder committee, however it is constituted in any particular local authority. It is doubly important that that assurance is given due to the interesting definition of "crime and disorder matter" that will now be in the Bill.

The definition of a,

"local crime and disorder matter", as being a matter that,

"affects all or part of the electoral area", means that there is a very broad definition of crime and disorder. For example, if you were living in a remote and rural part of Merseyside, you might feel that the problem of the level of crime and disorder prevalent in certain parts of the city of Liverpool was creating an effect in which policing resources were drawn from your local area to deal with pressing crime problems elsewhere. That is likely to be a common feeling. I recall from my time as chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority that assumptions were often made in what purported to be some of the quieter London boroughs that resources were being drained from them to deal with problems elsewhere in London.

The effect of this definition is that it will be possible to say that the crime and disorder committee should be discussing everything that relates to crime and disorder in the entire police authority area, because that will affect the resources that are available to deal with crime and disorder in the electoral area concerned.

I am sure that many crime and disorder committees, or whatever they will be called, will have lots of other things to do and will not necessarily do that. However, this definition enables that to happen. Under those circumstances, being able to call on the advice and involvement of someone from the police authority in question who will be able to put those resourcing issues, for example, in a broader context will be an essential part of it. I hope that when she replies my noble friend will be able not only to clarify the question about how the definition is intended to be applied but to repeat the assurance given by my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton that police authority membership will be included on such overview and scrutiny committees.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I shall start with my noble friend, who speaks as usual with great authority. First, on being joined up, we have tabled the amendment precisely as a demonstration that the Government are very much of the opinion that we should bring the two systems, which were separate, into line with each other. That is a very good example of departments working together for a common cause. My noble friend used a quotation from my noble friend Lord Bassam. We were looking forward to having that debate on Amendment No. 54, which is to be moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, who has similar concerns. I was going to use that quotation and say that it is very much our expectation that the statement is still accurate. My noble friend is right in that respect.

On the use of the word "affects", we want to ensure that people affected, for instance, by the proverbial neighbour from hell are not prevented from getting help from their council simply because it is across electoral boundaries. I hope that that is another example of joined-up activity.

In relation to the other questions, it would be worth restating the status of the crime and disorder committee, which was in the Police and Justice Act. Section 19 creates the crime and disorder committee. In authorities where there are executive arrangements, it will be an overview and scrutiny committee; elsewhere, it is just a committee of the council. District and county councils will refer their issues to their crime and disorder committees and county councillors will refer their concerns to their committees. They are parallel systems. There will not be overlap, which is why I said when responding to the amendment that it was important that there would be proper co-ordination at local level. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that.

Photo of Lord Harris of Haringey Lord Harris of Haringey Labour

My Lords, will my noble friend clarify the point about affecting a local area in a bit more detail? Her example of a neighbour from hell who might be just over an electoral boundary was a good one. What about a situation in which people want to raise the fact that a football stadium at the other end of the county is having an impact on the level of policing resources available in a district some miles away? There will often be a belief—correct or not—that police resources are diverted to deal with a particular public order matter or level of crime and consequently that there are insufficient levels of resources in a particular area. I can see why people might feel strongly about that. If this is the intention, every crime and disorder committee can discuss just about anything to do with policing in a police authority area. If it is not the intention, we need some clarity from the Government on the limits of issues which legitimately affect the area and which the crime and disorder committee can legitimately discuss.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, to an extent we are trying to anticipate what the crime and disorder committees will do, and they have not yet been formed. As I understand it, in the example that my noble friend used, the issue could be raised, but it would be for the committee to decide whether it was too remote. I suggest that we are straying slightly outside the amendments and the stage that we are at. I will write to my noble friend about these matters, or perhaps we can have a conversation privately.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 122 [Overview and scrutiny committees: reports and recommendations]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 50 and 51:

Clause 122, page 84, line 1, leave out "under subsection (6)" and insert "by virtue of subsection (3)(a)"

Clause 122, page 84, line 41, leave out "under subsection (6)" and insert "by virtue of subsection (3)(a)"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 123 [Joint overview and scrutiny committees: local improvement targets]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 52:

Clause 123, page 88, line 19, leave out "under subsection (6)" and insert "by virtue of subsection (3)(a)"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 53:

After Clause 125, insert the following new Clause—

"Reference of local crime and disorder matters to crime and disorder committees etc

(1) The Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48) is amended as follows.

(2) In section 19 (local authority scrutiny of crime and disorder matters), for subsections (3) to (8) substitute—

"(3) A local authority must—

(a) ensure that its crime and disorder committee has power (whether by virtue of section 21(2) of the Local Government Act 2000 or regulations made under section 32(3) of that Act or otherwise) to make a report or recommendations to the local authority with respect to any matter which is a local crime and disorder matter in relation to a member of the authority, and(b) make arrangements which enable any member of the authority who is not a member of the crime and disorder committee to refer any local crime and disorder matter to the committee.

(4) For the purposes of subsection (3)(b), arrangements enable a person to refer a matter to a committee if they enable him to ensure that the matter is included in the agenda for, and discussed at, a meeting of the committee.

(5) Subsections (6) and (7) apply where a local crime and disorder matter is referred to a crime and disorder committee by a member of a local authority in accordance with arrangements made under subsection (3)(b).

(6) In considering whether or not to make a report or recommendations to the local authority in relation to the matter, the committee may have regard to—

(a) any powers which the member may exercise in relation to the matter by virtue of section 233 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 (exercise of functions by local councillors in England), and(b) any representations made by the member as to why it would be appropriate for the committee to exercise any power which it has by virtue of subsection (3)(a) in relation to the matter.

(7) If the committee decides not to make a report or recommendations to the local authority in relation to the matter, it must notify the member of—

(a) its decision, and(b) the reasons for it.

(8) Where a crime and disorder committee of a local authority makes a report or recommendations to the authority by virtue of subsection (3)(a), it must—

(a) provide a copy of the report or recommendations to any member of the authority who referred the local crime and disorder matter in question to the committee in accordance with arrangements made under subsection (3)(b), and(b) provide a copy of the report or recommendations to such of—(i) the responsible authorities, and(ii) the co-operating persons and bodies,as it thinks appropriate.

(8A) Subsection (8B) applies where the crime and disorder committee of a local authority—

(a) makes a report or recommendations to the authority by virtue of subsection (3)(a), or(b) provides a copy of a report or recommendations under subsection (2) or (8)(b).

(8B) Where this subsection applies—

(a) the crime and disorder committee must notify the authority, body or person to whom it makes the report or recommendations or provides the copy that paragraph (b) applies, and(b) the authority, body or person must—(i) consider the report or recommendations;(ii) respond to the committee indicating what (if any) action it proposes to take;(iii) have regard to the report or recommendations in exercising its functions."

(3) In subsection (9)(b), for "subsection (1)(b) or (6)" substitute "this section".

(4) In subsection (11)—

(a) after the definition of "crime and disorder functions" insert—

"electoral area" has the meaning given by section 203(1) of the Representation of the People Act 1983;", and

(b) for the definition of "local crime and disorder matter" substitute—

"local crime and disorder matter", in relation to a member of a local authority, means a matter concerning—

(a) crime and disorder (including in particular forms of crime and disorder that involve anti-social behaviour or other behaviour adversely affecting the local environment), or(b) the misuse of drugs, alcohol and other substances,which affects all or part of the electoral area for which the member is elected or any person who lives or works in that area."

(5) Section 20 (guidance and regulations regarding crime and disorder matters) is amended as follows.

(6) In subsections (1) and (2), after "under" insert "or by virtue of".

(7) In subsection (5), omit—

(a) paragraph (f); and(b) sub-paragraphs (i) to (iii) of paragraph (g)."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Harris of Richmond Baroness Harris of Richmond Spokesperson in the Lords (Police), Home Affairs, Whip, Spokesperson in the Lords, Northern Ireland Affairs

moved Amendment No. 54:

After Clause 126, insert the following new Clause—

"Local authority scrutiny of crime and disorder matters

In section 19 of the Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48) (Local authority scrutiny of crime and disorder matters), after subsection 1 insert—

"(1A) Every crime and disorder committee shall include at least one member nominated by the police authority for the area of the local authority, who shall have the same entitlement to vote as any other member of that committee.""

Photo of Baroness Harris of Richmond Baroness Harris of Richmond Spokesperson in the Lords (Police), Home Affairs, Whip, Spokesperson in the Lords, Northern Ireland Affairs

My Lords, I, too, apologise for coming in at this late stage of the Bill. I saw the government amendment only on Friday and I had to think about what I was going to say. I declare an interest as a former chair of a police authority and as a vice-president of the Association of Police Authorities.

This is a very complex area, as the Minister has acknowledged, so it may be helpful to give a little background. The original provisions in the Police and Justice Act about the community call for action and the overview and scrutiny mechanisms that support it were made as a result of the Crime and Disorder Act review, which the Government initiated in November 2004 as part of the White Paper Building Communities, Beating Crime, which preceded the Bill. The aim of the proposals was to improve the working of crime and disorder reduction partnerships—CDRPs—particularly to enable better joining up and greater responsiveness and to make the partnerships more accountable. Those are all entirely laudable aims, which we support entirely.

There is still significant concern about the mechanism chosen to do that, however. Since the ideas were first mooted, there has been an element of mission creep, especially in confusing the original idea of holding the whole partnership more accountable with that of holding individual partners to account. The key partners, called "responsible authorities", in a CDRP are the local authority, the police authority, the police force, the local primary care trust and the probation board. A number of others, such as the fire authority, have some particular responsibilities and are known as "co-operating bodies".

The functions of a CDRP are largely operational, tasking actions against particular types of crime and disorder, such as anti-social behaviour. The main exception is the work that it does in consulting communities about very local issues, which in large part accounts for the presence of police authorities on the partnerships, and which helps them to shape policing priorities and assists them in their work in engaging communities about policing issues.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I seem to remember arguing when the Police and Justice Bill was before us that if the one of the aims of the CCfA overview and scrutiny provisions was to make CDRPs more accountable, there was a good argument for putting non-executive representatives of all the five key partners on the crime and disorder committee, which is what the Act calls overview and scrutiny committees looking at crime and disorder issues. Their job would be to improve joined-up accountability for the executive arm of the partnership. This arrangement would replicate the way in which overview and scrutiny committees work in a local government context, with the committee scrutinising the work of its executive. Why should any other partner have a lesser role in holding to account the executive arm of the partnership?

It is not our battle to fight on behalf of other partners, but we pressed this strongly in a policing context, arguing that accountability would be confused and place BCU commanders in a difficult position, without a police authority member present on an OSC to square the circle when it was looking into crime and disorder issues. Any other approach would inevitably raise expectations among the public and councillors—this is an important point—that they could in some measure tell the police what to do. They simply cannot do that.

As to the presence of a police authority member on CDRPs, because such members have no operational role, it is unlikely that they would ever be asked to explain their actions to an OSC. In any event, mechanisms already exist in Section 20 of the Police Act 1996 for councillor members of police authorities to answer council questions about the discharge of police authority functions. However, we accept that there would be a potential conflict of interest if the individual sitting on a CDRP for the police authority was also to represent it on an OSC looking at the activities of that CDRP. The police authority representative on any OSC would, therefore, need to be another member of the authority, who had taken no part in the activities of that CDRP. As I said, this is a complex area.

The Government accepted these arguments when the Police and Justice Bill was going through Parliament, although they did not want to place that in primary legislation and agreed that the presence of a police authority member on OSCs looking at crime and disorder matters would be included in regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, stated on 6 July 2006:

"We are consulting practitioners around the country on exactly how best to exercise that power, and most importantly that will include police authority members".

He continued:

"It is also important to highlight that the composition of such committees should continue to reflect the current and future structure of community safety delivery. The power in the Bill"— the Police and Justice Bill—

"will allow that to happen. The power is subject to the affirmative resolution process, and we can fairly argue that Parliament will have an opportunity to both monitor and scrutinise its use and effectiveness".—[Hansard, 6/7/06; col. 391.]

I am delighted that we will still be able to do that, and I look to the Minister, who is nodding, to give me that assurance.

Since that time, the exact workings of the proposals on CDRPs and related issues in the Police and Justice Act have been under discussion. They have not been finalised, in part because of this Bill. This will impact on how it all works in practice. We have not yet had any regulations. The government amendments that we saw late on Friday will leave as an exempted matter much of the operation of overview and scrutiny in a crime and disorder context. However, they make two key changes to the Police and Justice Act. First, the Act is amended in a way that leaves out the appeal mechanism that would enable a member of a community to take an issue to the council executive if a councillor declined to deal with it. Secondly, there are what appear to be relative minor amendments to Section 20 of the Act, dealing with guidance and regulations. As this section on regulations is amended, I seek reassurance that regulations will continue to specify that a police authority member will sit on crime and disorder committees.

If the Government wanted joined-up thinking between departments—and the Minister has assured us of that and has acknowledged that this Bill is intended to do that—why did they not adopt the model set out in the Police and Justice Act and avoid all this confusion and concern? I beg to move.

Photo of Lord Harris of Haringey Lord Harris of Haringey Labour 6:30 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, clearly seeks clarification on the position of police authorities in respect of overview and scrutiny committees. One gauges from her speech that if the response from my noble friend the Minister were to say that regulations will make that clear, that would be more than sufficient to enable the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

Perhaps my noble friend would consider what can be within the scope of the regulations, because I remain concerned that a number of such committees will have a very wide definition of which legitimate crime and disorder matters they can consider. It is clearly a matter for them to decide how broadly to define their activities, but, for example, the London Borough of Barnet has maintained throughout the past seven years that the level of resources put into policing in that borough are totally inadequate and unfair in respect of the resources that the people of Barnet pay in terms of the police precept. The London Borough of Newham repeatedly states that it should be able to run the police service in its borough. It seems to me that both of those boroughs' overview and scrutiny committees are likely to say that they should be able to look at any matter falling within the purview of the police authority in London—covering all 32 boroughs—because it impacts on the level of policing in their areas.

I hope that my noble friend will be able say that the regulations may define what are and what are not legitimate matters for overview and scrutiny committees to look at in particular boroughs. I am grateful to my noble friend for the offer of a letter, but these are important matters. I am not as sanguine as the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, in thinking that the arrangements under the Police and Justice Act would have worked wonderfully, because I am not convinced of that. However, given that something will be implemented, we must all try to make sure that there is clarity on what legitimate issues can be discussed by the committees and to ensure that, if those issues impact on wider questions of resources, the police authority is present and has a role.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I am not entirely sure that I can give my noble friend much satisfaction. I feel that I have strayed slightly into a debate on a different area of policy. The basic issues are complex. Both noble Lords who have spoken are expert and are used to debating with each other on these matters. What I have to say in response may sound rather basic. Perhaps I may answer the noble Baroness's question.

Section 20(5) of the Police and Justice Act gives the Secretary of State power to make regulations as to the co-opting of additional members to serve on the crime and disorder committee of a local authority. I was interested in the way that the noble Baroness analysed the history of this. I accept that the intention was to hold the partnership to account—she is right—and I have no doubt that the main focus of those powers was intended to be the co-opting of members of police authorities. Subsection (6) goes on to provide that those regulations,

"may provide for a person co-opted to serve as a member of a crime and disorder committee to have the same entitlement to vote as any other member".

My noble friend Lord Bassam can rarely have been quoted so widely and with such enthusiasm, and I am sorry he is not on the Bench alongside me to enjoy it. He said that the Secretary of State continues to offer assurances that we still believe it appropriate to include the police authority in the overview and scrutiny committee functions, and the regulation-making power in Clause 18—now Section 19—allows for that flexibility. That statement, I say again, is still accurate. The problem with the noble Baroness's amendment is that, in the light of that statement, it is inappropriate that we should suddenly decide to deal with the matter in primary legislation. We have already decided to deal with it by regulation and—to deal with the noble Baroness's concerns—in regulations.

I take the points my noble friend raised about what regulations might contain, how judgments will be made and the impact that will have generally. I have already referred in passing to the fact that Sir Ronnie Flanagan's review of the police service continues. One of the reasons we were not intervening in the Bill in this way is that we are waiting for that review, which is due around the end of this year. We have to consider it carefully, and we will bring to the House any of its recommendations that appear to require new legislation. A key focus will be the accountability of the police service and Sir Ronnie may well have something to say in that context about the role of police authorities, the role of crime and disorder committees and the relationship between the two. I cannot address those questions in the degree of detail I am sure my noble friend would like me to.

Photo of Lord Harris of Haringey Lord Harris of Haringey Labour

My Lords, I understand the dilemma my noble friend is in. Am I to interpret what she has said to mean that in a year's time we might be debating a Home Office Bill that will recast the proposals for how crime and disorder committees might operate and how they will relate to these issues? In that case, perhaps the best approach would have been to leave well alone and not implement the relevant section of the Police and Justice Act.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, my noble friend is clearly playing devil's advocate, which is something he can do but is not his usual style. I cannot answer that question, just as I cannot pre-empt what Sir Ronnie Flanagan is going to say. His remit is to review the police service and, in particular, to look at the accountability of the police. I am sure the noble Lord has already seen the interim report. We will have to see; I can do no better than that at the moment. By the same token, I hope the noble Baroness will understand why I am reluctant to accept her amendment at this stage of the Bill.

Photo of Baroness Harris of Richmond Baroness Harris of Richmond Spokesperson in the Lords (Police), Home Affairs, Whip, Spokesperson in the Lords, Northern Ireland Affairs

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for dealing with this issue and giving some sort of reassurance that the regulations will ensure that one representative of the police authority will sit on every local authority overview and scrutiny committee. I hope that will be written in the regulations. I understand that it cannot be in the Bill as it was not in the Police and Justice Act. There are, and will remain, significant concerns about the potential for the misuse of the community call for action, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has graphically illustrated, although at the end of the day it is the reputation of local government that is most at risk in that respect. I am grateful to the Minister for her reassurances and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 182 [Conduct that may be covered by code]:

Photo of Lord Tordoff Lord Tordoff Liberal Democrat

My Lords, were Amendment No. 55 to be agreed, I should not be able to call Amendments No. 56 to 58 because of pre-emption.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

moved Amendment No. 55:

Clause 182, page 129, line 9, leave out from beginning to the end of line 37 on page 130 and insert—

"(2A) The conduct of members and co-opted members in their private capacities is not covered by this Part of this Act except where it constitutes a criminal offence for which the member or co-opted member has been convicted and which is directly relevant to the performance of their official functions."

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, Amendments Nos. 55 to 58 return us to the subject that we had much discussion about: the model code and the code of conduct for councillors. It is clearly the Government's intention that the code of conduct should not apply where something would offend them if it was committed by a councillor in their private life, unless it was a criminal offence for which the councillor was found guilty. The trouble is that subsection (2B) does not say that; it says,

"where that conduct would constitute a criminal offence" .

We had a lot of discussion about the interpretation of that, and it has been my view all along that it will mean that even if a councillor is never found guilty of a criminal offence, "constituting" a criminal offence is sufficient to suggest that they could be still hauled before the standards board for it.

In another effort at this, we have tabled two possible alternative amendments. Amendment No. 55 would achieve the same thing as Amendments Nos. 56 to 58, but in a slightly more straightforward manner that I think would be less palatable to the Government as it would take out a whole chunk of the Bill. Amendment No. 55 would go further than the other amendments in the group as it would ensure that the same standard applied in Wales as well as England, which is not the case at the moment. Perhaps the Minister will tell us at some stage why Wales is not included in this, although it seems to be included in every other aspect of the Bill.

Amendments Nos. 56 to 58 are a shorter means of achieving the same end, which, overall, is to clarify the Bill. The Government clearly intend that the code should apply only when a criminal conviction has been recorded and limit—by statutory instrument, as we understand it—the criminal offences that the code may cover. The amendments deal with both points, bringing in the substance of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Dismore amendment.

The words that still worry us are the ones I have already pointed out: the categoric statement in subsection (2B) that the conduct would "constitute a criminal offence". We would like to add, after "constitute",

"a criminal offence for which the member or co-opted member has been convicted".

That is derived from the 2007 model code of conduct in the Local Authorities (Model Code of Conduct) Order 2007. Paragraph 2(3) of that code applies certain provisions,

"where that conduct constitutes a criminal offence for which you have been convicted".

That deals with the problem the Minister encountered in the debate on Report: the Bill refers to conduct that would constitute a criminal offence but the intention in the Bill, which is not stated, is that it should be a criminal offence for which they have been found guilty.

The amendments come with the Joint Committee on Human Rights seal of approval. They are common-sense amendments that are descriptive and clear, and they make sense of the Government's stated intentions. They would clarify the Bill immeasurably. I hope the Minister will able to accept them so we can ensure that there is no problem over this aspect of the Bill, which, as we all know, has come about because of some actions that were found by the Crown Court not to constitute a breach of the code in a member's private capacity. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Hamwee Baroness Hamwee Spokesperson in the Lords (Regional and Local Government), Department for Communities and Local Government 6:45 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I am pleased that the noble Baroness has tabled these amendments. I still have difficulty, not just with the concept—there are different views about offences committed in one's private capacity and so on—but with the words,

"where that conduct would constitute a criminal offence".

In her explanation the Minister tried to take us around in circles. I fear we dropped off one by one, and I was one of the first. I hope she will be able to set all this right today.

I have difficulty with part of what the noble Baroness has included; namely, the conduct being,

"directly relevant to the performance of their official functions".

There is a range of views on this and mine is probably at the tougher end. A councillor's actions go to reputation. On the previous occasion, the Minister used paedophilia as an example that might well not be directly relevant to the performance of official functions; nevertheless, you do not want a convicted paedophile undertaking some of the functions of a local authority because, as I said, there is an issue of reputation. However, we must be much straighter and clearer than the Bill currently is about what conduct would constitute a criminal offence.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, we certainly wrestled with this very complicated idea and I did my best to explain the issue. It is complicated but I can now take the House a little further forward and give a bit more background. However, I say to the noble Baroness at the start that she and I are absolutely at one: we are all concerned that a council's reputation should not get tarnished or pre-empted in terms of the standards regime and the courts. I shall try to give her that assurance but I have to take her through why we cannot accept the amendments as they stand—because they do not deal with the problem that we have identified.

The opposition amendments concern Clause 182 and the remit of the ethical regime to include conduct in a local authority member's private capacity. Taken together, they aim to provide that the principles which govern the conduct of members, the model code of conduct they are required to follow and any additions to the code adopted by an authority should include conduct in members' private capacity only where that conduct constitutes a criminal offence for which the member has been convicted and which is directly relevant to the official functions of a member. I appreciate how hard the noble Baroness has tried to address the problem by adding the words that she has, and that is why I am sorry to disappoint her.

I certainly understand the concerns of noble Lords about the remit of the ethical regime for local authority members and why they believe it should be limited to include only certain conduct. I certainly agree with the need to limit carefully the private conduct with which the code should be allowed to concern itself in the interests of fair play for councillors.

The intention behind the amendments is obviously to moderate the effect of the ethical regime by linking the remit of the code to conduct in members' private capacity which constitutes a criminal offence for which the member has been convicted and which is directly relevant to the member's official role. Nothing divides us here. I agree that there should be no right—or, indeed, opportunity—to treat a councillor as guilty of an act undertaken in his or her private capacity in advance of the usual criminal process. As I indicated on Report, our intention is that the new conduct regime for local authority members should have that principle at its heart. As I will explain, the standards regime will reflect that in the same way as the 2000 Act already provided for it in respect of the official conduct of councillors.

I shall explain the issue in a little more detail. It is important to have on the record that we have not invented a new regime for private conduct. We are bound by the framework principles on which the 2000 Act, the code of conduct and the conduct regime were based. The regime was deliberately designed to ensure that councillors were as clear as possible about what was and was not covered, and clear that they could take advice on what sort of conduct might fall within the scope of the regime. Since then, the test of that has been whether conduct while performing a councillor's role—that is, at the time the potential offence was committed—was capable of being "an offence" under the code.

As I explained, in all logic, a breach of the code can apply only to the time at which the actions take place; it cannot be made retrospective. It is fair to say that, although not everyone is in favour of the code in principle—certainly, Members of this House have spoken against it—this aspect of it has not been challenged by local government. Therefore, we have simply replicated the principles and frameworks set out in 2000 in relation to private conduct. I know that in the amendment the noble Baroness has tried to address what she sees as a problem but, given the existing framework of the regime, an amendment to the rules in the way proposed using the phrase,

"for which the member ... has been convicted"— even given the attempt to make the conviction a certainty—would not remove the problem because, logically, the code would still have to be applied at the time the conduct was committed. As I said, the code cannot, in law, be linked retrospectively to conduct. That restriction would apply even in the case of the phrase referring to conduct that,

"subsequently results in a criminal conviction".

As I have said, it is impossible for any conduct ever to have been found to be criminal conduct at the time it was undertaken. A member who has, for example, been accused of an offence relating to child pornography cannot have been convicted of that offence at the time of committing it. This replicates the principles and frameworks on which the regime was set up in 2000.

However, perhaps I may be more positive and set aside the differences between us in terms of the means and set out how my intentions meet those of the noble Baroness. What we are providing for, and what we will make absolutely clear in guidance, is that no one should be presumed guilty until proved so.

I also want to see that the ethical regime does not operate separately from the criminal process and ensure that no sanction in respect of a criminal offence is imposed by the regime unless a criminal court has first issued a conviction. Our approach to achieving that is to provide certainty in the Bill that the regime's remit will include conduct in a member's private capacity which would "constitute a criminal offence". In effect, that wording means conduct which is capable of being regarded as a criminal offence, and, as we discussed, it allows us to be very clear in secondary legislation about what conduct should be regarded as an offence for the purpose of the ethical regime.

That is one form of clarity. The second is to make it clear in regulation and guidance—here, we will replicate the guidance that already covers official conduct and we will promote it as such—that the judgment on whether a criminal offence has been committed will remain a matter for the courts. Critically, we will make it clear in guidance that, when an allegation involves a criminal prosecution, the procedure of the standards regime must be put on hold to await the outcome of the criminal processes. During that time, the standards committee will not be able to suspend the councillor and nor will the monitoring officer be able to pursue the investigation of the allegation. In the light of that, the only way that a standards committee will be able to conclude that there has been a breach of the code in respect of a member's private conduct is if the court has convicted the member of that conduct.

Therefore, there is nothing new about the sort of provisions that we have in mind to ensure that cases are put on hold when the criminal process is under way, not least because the Standards Board has in place long-standing guidance to its investigators in cases where investigations into members' official conduct might prejudice or conflict with police investigations or the court process. The relevant guidance states:

"An investigation should be deferred when there are ongoing criminal proceedings, a police investigation into the member's conduct, and we cannot proceed without investigating similar alleged conduct or needing to come to conclusions of fact about events which are also the subject of some other investigation or court process".

Therefore, we are neither creating a new offence in respect of members' private behaviour in addition to those already on the statute book, nor creating a new mechanism for judging whether an offence has been committed. The system will rely on the existing rules of the criminal system and on the existing practice whereby the decision-making processes of the ethical regime will not be triggered unless the usual legal processes have indicated that a member has committed the criminal offence.

The ethical regime will not kick in merely where there is an allegation and neither a standards committee nor the Standards Board will be able to intervene in or make decisions on criminal allegations in advance of, or in anticipation of, the operation of the proper criminal processes. The effect will be exactly as the noble Baroness intends by way of her amendment. The approach for conduct in a member's private capacity to fall within the code where that conduct would constitute a criminal offence is supported by the local government world, including the LGA. As I have already mentioned, I am very happy to put that on the record for everyone's security.

In addition, the amendments seek to provide an additional limitation on the remit of the ethical regime, so that members' conduct in their private capacity would fall only within the remit of the ethical regime where that conduct constitutes a criminal offence for which the member has been convicted and which is directly relevant to the performance of the official functions of the member. You will not be surprised to hear me say that that is contrary to our policy intention. Indeed, that was one of the problems we had with the JCHR report.

It is very important to have on record the fact that we are very careful of the reputation of councillors. We are absolutely sure that no one should be judged guilty before a case is proved—everyone is judged to be innocent. That is a view in the processes that we have chosen, which have been accepted and supported by the local government world. I appreciate why the noble Baroness has tabled these amendments and I thank her for going to the trouble of trying to find a solution. I hope that she can accept that we have arrived at a position where we can safely agree the position.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs 7:00 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very detailed reply. It is a pity that this legislation does not tie itself up with the model code of conduct 2007. It does not say the same thing and it would have been better if it had. Everyone will need to consider a criminal offence with the guidelines in one hand, otherwise they will not come to the same conclusion.

I am also a little alarmed, as the Minister said that where the Standards Board could work out that something was capable of being a criminal offence, but no charges were brought, it could take that on board. Maybe the Minister did not say that, but we need to be clear about it: where no criminal offence is pursued by the authorities, then the Standards Board cannot suddenly wake up and say, "We think we ought to have a go at that as well". If the Minister could reassure me about that, I think we have probably chewed this is much as we can. It is really helpful when legislation lines up with other matters, so that we are always clear what we are talking about. Perhaps the Minister could put a written response in the Library so that we can be clear that that is what we are talking about.

Photo of Baroness Hamwee Baroness Hamwee Spokesperson in the Lords (Regional and Local Government), Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, can the Minister confirm—we had a quick word about this outside the Chamber—that the intention is that there will be no conviction for this purpose until all opportunities for appeal have been exhausted?

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I can confirm both matters raised by the noble Baronesses. I can certainly give an absolute assurance on the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. The guidance will produce clarity.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 56 to 58 not moved.]

Clause 221 [Arrangements under section 220(1)]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, we come back to health in Part 14. Government Amendment No. 59 follows our lively debate on Report about whether it is necessary to exclude specifically NHS bodies from the role of host for a local involvement network. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, tabled an amendment along those lines. Although initially I was sceptical, they defended it admirably, so I undertook to go back and think about it. I said that I did not think it was likely; I certainly did not think it was desirable; and it was never our intention. However, the nature of LINks meant that local authorities should decide for themselves which host is best suited to serve the local area. Noble Lords were clearly not satisfied with that. I can see that it is an issue where absolute certainty is important, so I am very happy to amend the Bill in this respect.

The noble Earl and the noble Baroness have their way. I hope they are pleased that we have been able to agree that NHS bodies should be excluded, not only from being LINks but from being hosts. I sincerely hope they will support the amendment. I beg to move.

Photo of Earl Howe Earl Howe Shadow Minister, Health

My Lords, this concession by the Government is extremely welcome. I thank the Minister for having taken our concerns away and for responding so positively. I shall return briefly to the issue I raised in Committee on the position of a private provider of services acting as a host. The Government made it clear that they were not prepared to build in an exclusion covering private providers. If it is inappropriate for a foundation trust to be a host, then in logic it seems equally inappropriate for a private provider to be a host in a local authority area if that provider provides services in that same area. I do not think that there need be anything to stop that organisation being a host somewhere else and managing any apparent conflict of interest in an appropriate way.

If the Government are not to amend the Bill in the way that I and others originally proposed—clearly there is no opportunity for them to do so—will they consider making it clear in guidance when it is appropriate for a local authority to appoint a private provider as a host and when it is not? If they were to do so, that would go a long way to resolving some of the residual concerns that I and, I suspect, the noble Baroness still have.

Photo of Baroness Neuberger Baroness Neuberger Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I thank the Minister for this concession. It has given a considerable amount of relief to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and me. There still seems to be the issue—certainly members of patients' forums are still writing about it—of a host also being a voluntary organisation that is a provider of services, which means there could be a conflict of interest. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us about what might be in guidance to make that more difficult than it appears at the moment. I am very grateful.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, when we debated conflicts of interest at earlier stages of the Bill we talked about the practice that voluntary organisations traditionally have of managing interests. This is not a new situation to them. Dealing with conflicts of interest was one of the criteria for making a robust arrangement with a host. I take the point about private providers. We wrote to noble Lords addressing some of the issues that were raised about private providers last time round, but we can make it absolutely clear what conduct we would expect in the guidance.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 60:

After Clause 221, insert the following new Clause—

"Arrangements: power to make further provision

(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations which provide that arrangements made under section 220(1) ("local authority arrangements") must require prescribed provision to be included in local involvement network arrangements.

(2) The regulations may in particular provide that local authority arrangements must require local involvement network arrangements to include—

(a) prescribed provision relating to the way in which certain decisions of a local involvement network are to be taken;(b) prescribed provision relating to the authorisation of individuals as authorised representatives within the meaning of section 223(5);(c) prescribed provision relating to the use by a local involvement network of money derived from the arrangements;(d) prescribed provision relating to the consequences of contravention by a local involvement network of any provision of the arrangements.

(3) In this section—

"a local involvement network" means a person who is to carry on activities specified in section 220(2);

"local involvement network arrangements", in relation to local authority arrangements, means arrangements—

(a) which are made in pursuance of the local authority arrangements; and(b) under which a person is to carry on activities specified in section 220(2);

"prescribed provision" means provision prescribed or of a description prescribed by the regulations."

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, government Amendment No. 60 addresses other concerns that were expressed persuasively by noble Lords that the Bill does not go far enough to ensure the effective governance of local involvement networks. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have had debates about what constitutes the shape and visibility of a LINk and how one would recognise a LINk when one saw one. In Committee and on Report the noble Earl, Lord Howe, was concerned about those matters and particularly about the effectiveness and accountability of a LINk if it chose not to have any governance arrangements at all, which we thought was unlikely given the activities that it was to undertake. Throughout the passage of the Bill and in getting ready for LINks guidance and elsewhere, we have made it clear that the intention has always been to make provision for governance arrangements.

We have always seen these specific arrangements as reflecting what the local networks themselves see as the best way of achieving their goals. Indeed, as you look at the early adopter projects you see different forms of relationships between hosts, LINks and networks, and the emergence of different governance arrangements. It is clearly a key feature of LINks that they are to be creatures of their own communities rather than central government. This has never meant that we would encourage anarchy to reign, but rather that we respect the different ecologies operating in local areas and that they might adopt different forms of governance to reflect the breadth of the network, the relationship with the host, programmes of work and so on.

However, despite assurances, noble Lords were still concerned. On Report, we therefore discussed an amendment tackling this issue and I undertook to consider the matter and come back to it today. The amendment put to noble Lords therefore provides the certainty that has been sought: that LINks, no matter what form they take, must have arrangements in place which guarantee transparent and vital elements of governance in some key areas. That has been achieved without forcing LINks to comply with a prescribed form of government.

The amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations setting out the provisions that must be included in LINk arrangements relating to the governance, or means of operating, of any person carrying on LINks activities. The regulations will deal with how decisions are to be taken by a LINk—the arrangements which relate to how certain people involved in a LINk are, for example, to be authorised to enter and view premises of health and social care providers, such as how they conduct their investigations and assemble reports—the use of money by the LINk, and, importantly, what will happen if there is any contravention by a LINk of its arrangements with the local authority.

Those are the key elements one would seek to ensure certainty, a visible shape and form. I hope noble Lords will agree that the amendment secures the certainty of the key elements. It will certainly make clear to the local community, through more transparent and accountable arrangements, how—and, by implication, by whom—decisions will be taken. That could be by a board, a committee, a steering or project group; the conditions may differ, but there will be some form of arrangement to take decisions and agree priorities. It will also look at how the significant power of LINks to look into the direct provision of health and social care will be governed, for example, and how they spend their money.

I hope that noble Lords think that we have the balance right on providing for some proper shape and function while simultaneously enabling the local community to determine for itself what it wants its LINk to look like and how it wants it to work. It is an excellent compromise. I beg to move.

Photo of Earl Howe Earl Howe Shadow Minister, Health

My Lords, once again, this is a most welcome amendment. I thank the Minister for agreeing to it, and for her comments about it. My only question is about the use of "may" in proposed new subsection (2), rather than "shall" or "must". I hope that the Minster will not take this question as poor thanks for her troubles in any way: is it the Government's intention to include in the regulations a provision in respect of each of the matters listed in proposed new subsection (2)(a) to (d)? I hope that the answer is yes, otherwise why include this list in the first place? It would be helpful to have that assurance on the record.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government) 7:15 pm, 22nd October 2007

moved Amendment No. 61:

After Clause 225, insert the following new Clause—

"Transitional arrangements

(1) When a local authority becomes subject to the duty in section 220(1), it also becomes subject to the following duty.

(2) That duty ("the temporary duty") is to ensure until the relevant time that there are means by which the activities specified in section 220(2) can be carried on in the local authority's area.

(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations—

(a) define "the relevant time" for the purposes of subsection (2);(b) make provision about the ways in which the temporary duty may or may not be complied with;(c) impose on a services-provider duties as respects—(i) responding to requests for information made by a relevant person;(ii) dealing with reports or recommendations made by a relevant person;(d) make provision for the purpose of imposing on a services-provider a duty to allow individuals authorised by relevant persons to enter and view, and observe the carrying-on of activities on, premises owned or controlled by the services-provider;(e) make provision relating to the referral by a relevant person of matters relating to social care services to an overview and scrutiny committee of a local authority;(f) make provision requiring a relevant person to prepare prescribed reports and to send them to prescribed persons;(g) make provision about the publication of such reports.

(4) Regulations under subsection (3)(d) may include—

(a) provision corresponding to any provision that could be included in regulations under section 223(1) by virtue of section 223(2) or (3);(b) provision corresponding to section 223(4).

(5) Regulations under subsection (3)(e) may include provision corresponding to—

(a) any provision of section 224(2) to (5);(b) any provision that could be included in regulations under section 224(6).

(6) References in subsection (3) to a "relevant person" are to be read as follows—

(a) for the purposes of subsection (3)(c) and (e), a request, report, recommendation or referral is made by a "relevant person" if it is made by a person in carrying on section 220 activities in pursuance of temporary arrangements;(b) for the purposes of subsection (3)(d), an individual is authorised by a "relevant person" if the individual is authorised for the purposes of regulations under subsection (3)(d), in accordance with any applicable provision of those regulations, by a person carrying on section 220 activities in pursuance of temporary arrangements;(c) in subsection (3)(f) "relevant person" means—(i) a person who is or has been carrying on section 220 activities in pursuance of temporary arrangements; or(ii) a local authority which is or has been subject to the temporary duty.

(7) In this section—

"overview and scrutiny committee" has the same meaning as in section 224;

"section 220 activities" means activities specified in section 220(2);

"services-provider" means (subject to subsection (8))—

(a) a National Health Service trust;(b) an NHS foundation trust;(c) a Primary Care Trust; or(d) a local authority;

"social care services" has the same meaning as in section 224;

"temporary arrangements" means the arrangements made by a local authority to comply with the temporary duty.

(8) In subsection (3)(d) "services-provider" also includes a person prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State under section 223(7)(e)."

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, with this amendment, we come to an important part of our debates over the past weeks—indeed, it seems like months. I hope that noble Lords will feel that they have played a critical role in getting us to where we are now on the transitional arrangements.

Government Amendments Nos. 61 to 63 arise from these constructive discussions over the past few months, particularly on Report, about the need to address the possibility that there might be a gap in patient and public involvement activity should there be any delay between the abolition of patients' forums and the establishment of LINks. The genuinely creative amendment brought forward on Report addressed some difficult issues that would have occurred had we postponed the introduction of LINks, when authorities doing really well and getting ahead of the game would have been held up. On the other hand, we would have found ourselves unable to make money available, that money being an enabler and facilitator for what needed to happen. I undertook to consider the amendment further and to come back today with an amendment to take account of noble Lords' concerns and ideas.

Before addressing the substance of the amendment, I shall say a few contextual words. This issue clearly exercised patients' forums as well and we wanted to provide confidence to those dedicated and active members of patients' forums who we now sincerely hope will take their enthusiasm and expertise on to the next stage in LINks. I shall address a few concerns that have surfaced in letters to me. That is important, because this is my final opportunity to put the record straight on some of the concerns around transition.

First, on LINks not having a fixed membership, there are two issues to clarify, especially as patients' forums have been exercised about this. The Bill does specify who should be in a LINk, what kind of person should be involved or particular roles, because we wanted it to be locally owned. It is a radical experiment in some senses, because we are asking local networks to reach out into the furthest corners of their community and capture and amplify voices that are more often than not unheard. Flexibility is a virtue in that case, not an impediment.

My second point picks up on the amendment on governance that we have just discussed. Whatever form LINks take, they should have clear-cut arrangements for matters such as decision-making, who is an authorised representative, how funds are spent and so on. So although we do not specify details of membership, the local LINks themselves will have to have clear arrangements for determining who is an authorised representative for the purpose of reporting or taking part in visits. The balance is right in that regard.

Another major fear—a misconception that has persisted throughout this—is that LINks do not have any powers. In fact, the arrangements by which LINks can require information and responses to their reports, the means by which they can gain access to premises—the sort of thing you find in Clause 222—and the duties placed on commissioners and providers to respond to LINks are all provided for, just as they have been provided for patients' forums. They effectively have powers in the shape of duties placed on others.

However, there are three important reasons why LINks can achieve even more than patients' forums. First, in the forum legislation, the Secretary of State has the power to make regulations only in respect of forums and their ability to enter premises. Under Clause 223, the Secretary of State has a duty to make those regulations. Secondly, commissioners and providers would be required to respond to LINks—under Clause 222—and allow entry to both health and social care settings, not just health as in the case of forums in Clause 223. Thirdly, under the forum arrangements, overview and scrutiny committees do not have to respond to referrals made by forums, which they will now be required to do when receiving a referral from LINks—that is in Clause 224. These are important powers. Noble Lords may also know that the regulations that provide for the means by which organisations are obliged to respond to LINks are currently being consulted on by the Department of Health. If there are any ideas as to how the regulations could be clarified or strengthened, we would certainly like to hear them. There were questions as to whether the Bill reduces the ability to have influence over healthcare. This I cannot understand. Our view is that LINks may have far greater clout than the forums, because they have a much wider remit and capacity.

Another concern is that LINks will be poorly funded. That again is not the case. As I understand it, the details of the three-year settlement are to be announced very shortly now that the Comprehensive Spending Review is settled. Making funds available directly to local authorities, which will then procure the hosts of LINks, missing out additional bureaucracy at the centre, means that more money will be available than many people expect.

We addressed conflicts of interest in the previous amendment. It is an important point, but it is dealt with all the time in many aspects of public life. Many organisations wear two hats.

There is a notion that LINks will be excluded from monitoring some health and social care services and all independent sector services. That is not the case. While there are some important restrictions on where a LINk can visit—for example, children's social care facilities and people's homes—there is no limit to the health and social care services that a LINk can monitor.

I hope that those answers to contextual questions add up to being able to say to patients' forums and to people who are working in the field to establish LINks that we have done our best to ensure that what they need to make LINks a success and keep the commitment, energy and expertise available is in place. We have enabled that.

That is why this amendment on transition, which inserts a new clause, is so important and why I am so grateful to noble Lords. It may look a bit complicated, but its purpose is straightforward. The effect is that from 1 April, if a local authority has not established contractual arrangements through which LINk activities can be carried on, it will be under a duty to make sure that the activities are carried out by other means. The amendment sets out certain aspects which the Secretary of State will include in regulations, such as the period for which these transitional arrangements apply and the activities and the reporting of activities which are to be undertaken in this period.

I want to clarify one or two points on this. The question might arise of how we will know if the formal LINk arrangements have been reached and thus when the transitional period ends. We think that three clear stages will have to have been reached: first, when a host has been procured; secondly—here our amendment on governance is particularly relevant—when the LINk governance arrangements are in place; and, thirdly, when the LINk has begun to meet to start carrying on its activities. We shall make arrangements with local authorities to assess at which point each stage has been reached in each local authority area. We were tempted to put the period for the transitional duty in the Bill, but after careful thought we felt that regulations were more appropriate, as they would allow us to extend the period in the unlikely eventuality that that is needed. However, we do not believe that it will be necessary.

One of the main benefits of the transitional LINk arrangements is that local authorities will be able to receive their full allocation of funds from the outset. One of our concerns was that if we had retained the old system in parallel it would have eaten into the funds that we want to give local authorities to get LINks into action and which will be the engine that will drive these changes faster.

I shall say a little more about how we envisage the arrangements being carried on during the transitional phase. We will make further provision in regulations, which we will discuss with other stakeholders, about the ways in which the temporary duty may or may not be complied with—for example, because a local authority could not undertake the activities. We will expand in guidance on possible arrangements. We are clear about allowing people currently involved in patients' forums to have an opportunity to apply their experiences and local knowledge. We shall make it clear to local authorities that in making their transitional arrangements they should invite members of the local population who have experience of monitoring local health and social services and representing local people's views to be involved with the transition from patients' forums to LINks activities. Local authorities will need to ensure not only that those people are available to undertake the LINk activities, but also that the group has the staff support and funding necessary to be effective. Of course, funding covers expenses only.

The regulations will also provide that all the same principles apply in the transitional phase as in the formal phase. For example, during the transitional arrangements, the temporary LINk will be able to make referrals to the overview and scrutiny committee and service providers will have the same duties to whoever is carrying out LINks activities. We are building genuine progression and consistency. That means that LINks, even prior to the formal arrangements, will be able to require information and responses to their reports and, perhaps most importantly, there will be certain obligations on providers of health and social care to allow people involved in the arrangements to have access to their premises.

In that context, I shall digress ever so slightly to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, for the constructive part that she played in considering the relationship between LINks and the regulators. She very helpfully proposed that the regulators should involve authorised members of LINks in every inspection that they carry out. I set out in my letter to all Peers on 3 October 2007 and in debate that regulators are extremely supportive of the notion of involving lay people in their inspection activity; indeed, they already do so in a number of visits. However, lay assessors are not involved in every visit, nor would the regulatory bodies support the default involvement of LINks, as there always remains the possibility that it might not be appropriate. The costs of involving LINks in every case might also be disproportionate. The regulators, which have huge experience, have stood firm on those points.

We believe that the current position achieves the right balance between enabling adequate and appropriate involvement and allowing the regulators to go about their business in an efficient way. As the noble Baroness knows better than most, both the regulators are very supportive of LINks and are keen for the new health and social care regulator to continue to involve patients and the public as appropriate. I am sure that in the vast majority of cases informed, experienced and appropriately trained people participating in LINks can only enhance the process of assessment by the regulators. Our guidance will make it clear that our general expectation is that the regulators will join up with LINks to seek the involvement of lay assessors.

I hope that by clarifying our position on this and emphasising the transitional role for people who are already active we have strengthened the core of the LINks proposals. We are setting out a robust framework, which will mean that, even if a local authority has difficulty or delay in establishing formal LINks arrangements, the activities will still go ahead. This is crucial, because it is about maintaining pace, experience and enthusiasm. It is not just people in this House or in Parliament who think that the transition arrangements are a good idea; we have discussed them with the LGA, which is supportive. I also understand from the Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health that local authorities have suggested something along these lines as they prepare for LINks, so we are clearly all moving in the same direction.

It only remains for me to point out that the final two amendments are simply consequential to the insertion of the new clause on transitional arrangements and governance arrangements to make sure that Clause 226, which deals with the interpretation of this Part of the Bill and supplementary matters, refers to the correct section numbers.

I am particularly pleased that we have been able to develop this notion. This is the last time that I shall speak on a health amendment, so I shall say how very grateful I am to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, and other noble Lords who have spoken on the health part of the Bill, which was bound to be controversial, because it comes with some history. This House is particularly expert on it. The position that we have arrived at is an improvement and will make a big difference to the success of the new scheme. I am grateful for the help that we have received. I beg to move.

Photo of Earl Howe Earl Howe Shadow Minister, Health 7:30 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I thank the Government and, in particular, the Minister for this welcome amendment, which looks set to resolve one of the most serious concerns that I and others had on this part of the Bill. I also thank her for her kind remarks, which, I am sure she will know, are reciprocated from this side of the House. There are several features of the amendment that I particularly welcome, not least the fact that we are promised regulations, not merely guidance, and that the length of the transitional period is left flexible, at least for the time being.

I have a number of questions. We all want to ensure that the transitional arrangements, whatever they are in individual cases around the country, are substantive and meaningful. Can the Minister give us a clearer idea of what mechanisms will be in place to ensure that local authorities do not engage merely in token forms of activity? We need to prevent that. For example, local authorities should need to be able to prove that during the transitional period patient and public involvement, including specific visits and monitoring of services, has taken place at no less a level of intensity than would be expected and to demonstrate this to the Department of Health. As an aspect of that, it might be appropriate for local authorities to publish the relevant details of PPI activities on their websites.

What more will local authorities be asked to do in order to demonstrate that they are not simply going through the motions? In support of that, how will the department encourage forum members to collaborate with local authorities during the transition? How will they ensure that they are properly supported and funded, and how will the work in progress of forums be taken forward under the provisions of Clause 227(3)?

Secondly, when are the draft regulations likely to be published? Doubtless the fact of these transitional arrangements will become known about quite soon among the generality of patients' forum members, but until each forum knows precisely what the local authority in its area is intending to do as regards implementing the regulations, there may be a sense of unreality in the air, given that the only thing that forums know for sure is that they will cease to exist on 31 March. Early publication of the regulations is essential if we are not to see forums and their members dispersing in a manner that will make these arrangements harder for local authorities to implement.

Thirdly, given that there will almost certainly be insufficient time to consult on the regulations, could the Minister explain why the word "shall" or "must" does not appear in subsection (3) of the amendment instead of "may"? I am sure that there is a good answer to that, but is there any significance to it?

Lastly, I return briefly to the issue of private providers. How will the Government ensure that private providers of health or care services are obliged to respond to requests for information and visits from those charged by the local authority with implementing the transitional arrangements? If the duty of a private provider to respond to such requests is enshrined in the service contract, it may in many instances be specific to patients' forums rather than to individuals carrying on activities in the transitional period. How will the Government make sure that private providers are under an equal duty to respond even after forums are abolished? In the Minister's letter to me, for which I thank her, she indicated that in relation to the activities of LINks the matter would be subject to directions given to PCTs. Will the same apply to the transitional arrangements? If so, who will monitor the extent to which PCTs and independent contractors abide by the content of such directions?

Photo of Baroness Neuberger Baroness Neuberger Liberal Democrat

My Lords, I agree absolutely with everything that the noble Earl has said. As noble Lords can hear, I am losing my voice, so I will not say much. I thank the Minister for the letter that she wrote to the noble Earl and me, in which she made it very clear that accompanying the regulators on visits would be an expectation. It is very important that that will be in the guidance and I am truly delighted by that.

On the point raised by the noble Earl about independent and private providers, there is a further complication, which was drawn to my attention only today. Increasingly, there will be some private provision of support functions to the PCTs. Some of that may include part of public and patient involvement. I wonder how, and not only in the transitional arrangements, the Government think that in the guidance and the regulations it can be made very clear—whoever is involved, be they private, voluntary or public sector, whether they are involved in providing support to patient and public involvement or whether they are the organisations that need to allow access—that somehow everybody will be treated equally. That is what we are really getting at; we want to know that this will be a level playing field.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I will take those questions in order; I will have a better chance of answering the last one if I start with the first one. I say to the noble Baroness that this Bill has proved deeply unhealthy. At some point everybody on the Front Bench has lost their voice. We will be well out of it at the end of this.

The noble Lord makes important points on the transitional arrangements. He has identified some of the ways in which this could be done, in relation to the website, the monitoring of services and so on. We have tried in this area, as well as in others, to achieve the right balance in giving people power, in enabling them, in giving them money and now in giving them scope, by way of transition, to go and do things that they think are right and proper and will make a difference. They can draw on their experience.

The amendment that we debated earlier about the governance mechanism will substantiate the sort of changes that we want to see. That will make it absolutely clear that this is not tokenism but that these are real changes. The activities are being undertaken, including investigating and monitoring reports, which can be logged up—and certainly one would be looking at the relative levels of activity in inspections, visits and so on. In those arrangements for governance, we identified decision-making arrangements, using money wisely and making sure that a membership is in place, for example. They are tough and will be explicit. The department will keep a very close eye on this over the next few months.

On the timescale of the regulations, the noble Earl rightly said that we do not have time to consult, given where we are. That is why I stressed that we would be working with stakeholders to make sure that we have the common-sense approach that we need. We will bring forward the regulations as soon as we can. We will be looking to have them in place in the New Year. I take the point that time is very important.

On the question of "may" and "shall", we intend to introduce regulations on all the matters to which the noble Earl referred. I will write to him on that point because there may be other points of detail that would be useful to pick up. I will certainly have to write on some of the questions raised about private providers. I am advised that directions will apply during the transitional period in relation to the independent sector. The Department of Health will make sure that there is compliance with those arrangements. Those are important questions and I am not really equipped to give more of an answer, but I can certainly make sure that we write.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 226 [Sections 220 to 225: interpretation and supplementary]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 62 and 63:

Clause 226, page 166, line 15, leave out "225" and insert "(Transitional arrangements)"

Clause 226, page 166, line 24, leave out "225" and insert "(Transitional arrangements)"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 230 [Duty to involve users of health services]:

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

moved Amendment No. 64:

Clause 230, page 169, leave out lines 23 to 27 and insert—

"(a) guidance given by the Secretary of State as to when, or how often, involvement under arrangements under subsection (1B) is to be carried out;(b) guidance given by the Secretary of State as to the form to be taken by such involvement in any case specified by the guidance."

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, Amendments Nos. 64 and 65 follow on from our debate on Report when concerns were expressed that, with our amendments to Section 242 of the 2006 Act, we might be paving the way for too narrow a concept of involvement. I undertook to look one last time at the form of words being used, and my noble friend has now tabled these amendments to take account of those concerns. Although they are a relatively minor change in language, the amendments offer more clarity that involvement can take various forms in different circumstances. I should like to put on the record that there was never any attempt by us to provide for a narrow definition of involvement or prescribe a particular, unique form of involvement. The two amendments are necessary to reassure noble Lords of our intentions and to avoid any doubt on the matter. I hope that noble Lords will recognise the spirit of this clarification and feel able to support the amendments. I beg to move.

Photo of Earl Howe Earl Howe Shadow Minister, Health

My Lords, I welcome these amendments and thank the Minister most warmly for having agreed to them, and of course I accept fully the assurances that she has given. I wonder whether she will allow me to ask a couple of questions on the content of the clause as a whole.

First, in new Section 242A, we debated on Report the phrase "prescribed matters" and the uncertainty about what that phrase might cover. I would appreciate an assurance that no less than is currently provided for in the Health and Social Care Act 2001 is to be covered by the prescribed matters. I sought at the last stage to alleviate this potential difficulty by asking for consultation on the regulations, but the Government did not agree to that, so it would be extremely helpful to have an undertaking that at least the basic 2001 Act involvement provision—that is, the planning of services, planning changes in services and decisions about the operation of services—will be applied to the prescription of the matters to which the duty is to apply and that the regulations will be used only on the first and any subsequent occasions to expand on this core principle rather than reduce those principles.

Secondly, in new Section 242B we are being asked to accept some extremely sweeping provisions that permit strategic health authorities, which are effectively branch offices of the department, to override local involvement work by PCTs, even where that work has already begun. That introduces a risk that a strategic health authority could undertake involvement work across one of the very large areas they cover without the sensitivity that only local involvement work by PCTs can bring, and which can then be precluded under this clause. For example, a reduction in the number of GP practices may make economic sense across a whole area, but the precise configuration can be determined only through the involvement of patients, so that transport and access difficulties that apply locally can be factored in. If that is left to consultation under Section 7 of the Health and Social Care Act, and if it is a substantial variation, it may well be too late to consider creative options for co-location that the public might generate when they are given the opportunity to do so. When I probed the purpose of these provisions on Report, the Minister indicated that they had been included to avoid duplication. However, the powers, if read literally, are drafted in a much wider way. Therefore I wonder whether I could have the Minister's confirmation that the provisions are intended only to avoid duplication of involvement with the same people on the same issues and will be used only for this purpose.

Thirdly, I would appreciate her confirmation that the provisions and any regulations will not be used to prevent, inhibit or override local involvement by PCTs with patients or their representatives locally; and finally, that the exercise of any powers by strategic health authorities in respect of whatever range of directions in new Section 242B is to be put in place will be decided by strategic health authority boards in public session and reported in the same way. There needs to be transparency here.

All this gives rise to the question: how will compliance by strategic health authorities with these provisions be monitored and reported on, and who will performance-manage strategic health authorities on their involvement duties? PCTs are monitored by the Healthcare Commission on their patient and public involvement, but can the Minister confirm that the commission also has a remit under the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003 to monitor strategic health authorities, and that this monitoring function of the commission will apply to the new provisions in this clause?

Photo of Baroness Neuberger Baroness Neuberger Liberal Democrat 7:45 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, I simply want to support the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in what he has said about the monitoring arrangements. We are grateful for these amendments, but as they stand the intention is not absolutely clear, so some guidance from the Minister on what the Government mean would be enormously helpful. As we come to the end of this part of the Bill, I want to say how helpful it has been to have the sorts of conversations with the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Morgan. It has been a great pleasure to work on this part because I think that we have come a long way. We would still like a little more clarity, but we have made good progress—even if one by one we have been losing our voices.

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

My Lords, I hope that I will not lose my voice, at least for a moment so that I can help the House with further clarification along the lines requested by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger. It may be helpful to set out a little background in order to assist noble Lords in understanding the new duty on SHAs provided for in the government amendment introduced on Report. The only services SHAs are themselves responsible for are nationally commissioned, specialised services. In commissioning those services, as I have said, SHAs are subject to the existing Section 242 duty to involve. What we are providing for additionally in new Section 242A is a duty on SHAs to make arrangements to involve patients and the public in, for example, the development of strategic frameworks within which services across a whole area are delivered. We have placed a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations setting out the circumstances under which this duty would apply. As I said on Report, it is expected that these regulations will be developed with the key stakeholders I listed at that stage.

The policy intention is that the duty will apply where an SHA is developing the future configuration and method of service delivery across the area for which it is responsible. We will be building up those regulations through a process of involvement to avoid the irony alluded to by the noble Earl on Report, but I would expect them to be comparable with the provisions already contained in Section 242—here I hope to reassure the noble Earl—the planning and provision of services, the development and consideration of proposals for changes in the way services are provided, and decisions to be made affecting the operation of services, but in the context of the whole area rather than one discrete PCT area. Other areas may emerge as the health service evolves, and there may be other circumstances that require SHAs to involve people in other aspects of the development of strategic frameworks. I can therefore reassure the noble Earl that we are talking about expanding, not reducing, the provisions in Section 242.

On strategic health authority directions to PCTs, let us be very clear that it will generally be for PCTs to involve patients and the public, as set out in Section 242. Only in very particular circumstances might an SHA want to take over that responsibility. For me, the phrase "take over that responsibility" is key, because we are talking not about that responsibility disappearing but about it being taken over by the SHA. Yes, we did say on Report—and I am happy to reiterate now—that we are aiming to avoid duplication. We are not about preventing local consultation or about preventing the PCT consulting; we are making provision for a strategic health authority to take over a PCT's responsibility. The situation might arise in which all PCTs in an area involve people in local arrangements within a strategic framework. Strategic health authorities would then be able to co-ordinate a single involvement exercise, rather than there being several very similar PCT arrangements with a similar timeline. Let me therefore reassure noble Lords that we intend to achieve a co-ordinated involvement process that avoids unnecessary duplication. There is absolutely no intention to limit involvement in any way.

I absolutely agree that there can be no involvement and consultation without transparency. We do expect that SHA boards will receive reports and will be involved in decisions about consultation. That is exactly the role that one would hope boards would have. We therefore expect people to continue to be involved and that our proposals here expand, not reduce, opportunities for involvement. Given the assurance that I have been able to give the noble Earl and the noble Baroness, I hope that they will feel able to support the amendment.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Government Whip

moved Amendment No. 65:

Clause 230, page 170, leave out lines 2 to 5 and insert—

"(a) guidance given by the Secretary of State as to when, or how often, involvement under arrangements under the regulations is to be carried out;(b) guidance given by the Secretary of State as to the form to be taken by such involvement in any case specified by the guidance."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Photo of Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton Labour

moved Amendment No. 66:

After Clause 234, insert the following new Clause—

"Payments on loss of office

Payments on ceasing to hold office as mayor, leader or cabinet member

(1) After section 100 of the Local Government Act 2000 (c. 22) (power to make provision about allowances) insert—

"100A Payments on ceasing to hold office

(1) A local authority may establish and administer such schemes as they may from time to time determine for the making of payments to or in respect of persons on their ceasing, because of their failure to be re-elected as a councillor, to hold office as—

(a) an elected mayor of the authority (within the meaning given by section 39);(b) an executive leader of the authority (within the meaning of Part II); or(c) a councillor of the authority appointed to the executive of the authority.

(2) The power conferred by subsection (1) above includes power to make different provision for different cases.

(3) A local authority's functions under subsection (1) above are not to be exercised by the executive of the local authority.

(4) The standing orders of every local authority must include provision for the publication of every determination under this section.

(5) A determination under this section does not affect benefits in payment under this section before the making of the determination.

(6) In this section, "local authority" has the same meaning as in Part II.".

(2) In consequence of the amendments made by this section, the italic heading preceding section 99 of the Local Government Act 2000 becomes "Allowances, pensions and other payments"."

Photo of Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton Labour

My Lords, the whole House will have waited all day for this speech, because this is the last amendment. Goodbye, Freddy. I apologise to the House and to the Minister for having tabled this important amendment very late in the proceedings. I was prompted to do so after discussions with London Councils. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I are, of course, joint presidents of that association.

One aspect in which the Bill is deficient is in the treatment of full-time local councillors who are not re-elected and who consequently suffer financially. The amendment seeks to rectify this situation by granting local authorities powers to award compensation payments to full-time local authority councillors who are not re-elected to the council. I served as a councillor many years ago when not a breath of payment was made. Progress has been made since. Councillors deserve treatment equal to that of other full-time politicians. MPs receive compensation payments if they are not re-elected to the House of Commons. As a result of powers to be granted under the Greater London Authority Bill, which is shortly to become an Act, the Mayor of London and London Assembly members will also receive compensation on ceasing to hold office. It is inequitable that although MPs, the Mayor of London and London Assembly members receive these payments, full-time local authority councillors are treated differently.

The amendment is not a case of councillors attempting to award themselves more money across the board. It would apply only to a limited number of local authority members in a limited number of situations. It would apply only to directly elected mayors, cabinet members and the leader of the council. It would apply only if they stood for re-election and were not voted back on to the council. It would not apply to other councillors and could be agreed only by the full council. It would be for local authorities to decide whether they wanted to institute these payments. They would not be obliged to do so. With these limitations, the amendment is reasonable and fair, and would allow each authority to decide for itself.

Last year, an independent report entitled The Remuneration of Councillors in London concluded that there is a clear need for the law to be changed in this regard. I beg to move.

Photo of Baroness Hamwee Baroness Hamwee Spokesperson in the Lords (Regional and Local Government), Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I declare an interest, to which the noble Lord referred, as a joint president of London Councils, although I have to say that it has not briefed me on this and I did not know where the amendment came from. I also declare an interest as the prospective recipient of a similar provision in the Greater London Authority Bill, as it probably just about still is. The noble Lord raises an important matter, although I am surprised that he managed to slip it in at Third Reading without anyone waving yellow or even red cards at him, but there we go. I shall comment on the clause as it is presented to your Lordships.

The issue of payments of different types to members of local authorities requires quite a lot of attention. Clearly it becomes even more of an issue as the roles change, but it is not such a recent matter that members have taken decisions that have affected their careers very substantially by choosing to go down the route of public service. I do not oppose the principle that those who have been employed full-time, or pretty much full-time, should receive some sort of severance payment when that office comes to an end. However, the noble Lord limits the provision in a number of ways. First, it is limited to members holding certain positions. We discussed at earlier stages of the Bill the difficulty of those who chair, for instance, an overview and scrutiny committee being perceived as less important than those in an executive position. I would not like to see a severance scheme that did not allow for full consideration of the range of involvement in local government, although I appreciate that the amendment would not set up such a scheme but would provide a framework to enable a scheme to be drawn up.

Secondly, I do not know whether, in the noble Lord's mind, the failure to be re-elected includes failure because of deciding not to re-stand. As I understand it—I may have got this a bit wrong; I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if I have, but the principle applies—the scheme that applies to Members of Parliament was changed when it became clear that some MPs, who did not want to continue but who did not want to lose out on the severance payment, stood in a hopeless seat. That is not a good situation to have. The scheme that has been worked up and which is likely to apply following the enactment of the Greater London Authority Bill extends beyond those who have failed to be re-elected in the normal sense of the word. Perhaps I should have put this in the first category, but there are also members who are re-elected as councillors but who do not go into the cabinet—they do not have an executive position.

The noble Lord may not be aware of my final point—taxation—over which the Greater London Authority has just stumbled. Although some of us think that public service feels very much like employment, it is not treated as employment. Therefore it does not have the same exemption for the first £30,000 of redundancy pay as employment does. If you are a Member of Parliament, a Member of the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament, special provisions apply and I hope that similar ones will apply in London. I also hope that in due course they will be looked at as applying to council officers, because despite this being the last knockings of the Bill, the noble Lord raises an important point.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government) 8:00 pm, 22nd October 2007

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right: it is fitting that we conclude Third Reading not only with an amendment introduced by my noble friend Lord Graham, who has been such a good friend to this Bill and a good friend to the issues that have been raised, but on a note about the role and reward of councillors. Although I cannot engage in the detail of the debate, interesting points were raised. I understand the noble Lord's concerns. However, the Councillors Commission is considering this matter as one of a range of issues it is examining in an attempt to widen the pool of councillors and improve the vitality of local authorities. That is where we came in with this Bill: how do we ensure that we have a system of local government genuinely fit for the next century with all of the energy, commitment and intelligence that we can muster? It is not appropriate for me to comment on this matter until the Councillors Commission has reported on 10 December 2007.

Before I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment, I would like to say that this has been a steep learning experience for me. I have enjoyed the passage of the Bill and I have been grateful for the patience of noble Lords on both sides of the House, including my own side. We have had a very thorough debate on the Bill. We have debated it for 55 hours in this House and 111 hours in both Houses. I do not know how many hours the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, accounted for—we could go back and find out—but it was certainly a significant proportion. The debate has been very thorough, both wide and deep, and of great quality and I thank everyone for being so assiduous and careful in their scrutiny.

I am very sad that we are losing the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, who seems to think that she will find the Home Office portfolio even more interesting. We will miss her very much, because she spoke with enormous authority, warmth and good sense. I always knew that I should listen carefully to what she had to say. We will do so in her new role and we wish her well. On that note, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

Photo of Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton Labour

My Lords, last week, Question Time was dominated by a debate on hornets and I think the nest from which they came was in my amendment. It was a hornets' nest and I acknowledge at once the difficulty I had in seeking to include it at Third Reading. I am well aware of the conventions, but I tabled the amendment, it was accepted and here we are.

I am grateful for the points that were made; they were made very sensibly. I take heart from the fact that the Minister said that these and other matters were in effect in the hands of the commission that is sitting. Perhaps something good will come out of that along the lines of my amendment. I am grateful to the Minister. I am grateful, too, for the comradeship that has been demonstrated by all participants in the Bill. With those words, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Photo of Baroness Hanham Baroness Hanham Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I should like to thank the Minister for her kind comments. I have enjoyed seven years of local government here and I am moving on elsewhere, although not necessarily looking forward to that. I thank the Minister for all that she has done; for her kindness and her sense of absorbing what we were saying. We always thought that she was listening even if she was not always able to deliver.

Photo of Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Scott of Needham Market Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Baroness and her team for the many hours that we have spent on the Bill. I also thank my own colleagues, especially my noble friend Lady Hamwee, who is almost certainly about to expire at any time and my noble friend Lord Greaves, who is not in his place at the moment. His attention to detail, the result of his many years of experience, has resulted in changes which might otherwise not have taken place. That shows the value of detailed scrutiny of legislation by your Lordships' House.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, before we move on, I should like to say a warm "thank you" on behalf of the Government, and I suspect everyone else in the House, to the Bill team who have worked tirelessly, ceaselessly, expertly and joined-upedly, because we have been working with the Department of Health as well as the Department for Communities and Local Government. They have been marvellous, especially my private office. Thank you very much.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 237 [Orders, regulations and guidance]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 67 and 68:

Clause 237, page 177, line 22, leave out from second "or" to end and insert "paragraph 3, 9(4)(b) or 10(3)(b) of Schedule (New arrangements for executives: transitional provision)"

Clause 237, page 179, line 7, leave out "Schedule 5" and insert "Schedule (New arrangements for executives: transitional provision)"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 242 [Commencement]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 69:

Clause 242, page 179, line 20, at end insert—

"( ) The following provisions come into force in relation to Wales on such day as the Welsh Ministers may by order appoint— section (Reference of local crime and disorder matters to crime and disorder committees etc);the entry in Part 6 of Schedule 18 relating to the Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48);section 238 so far as relating to that entry."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 3 [Supplementary vote system: consequential amendments]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 71 to 78:

Schedule 4, page 186, line 22, leave out from beginning to end of line 30

Schedule 4, page 186, line 32, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert—

"( ) In subsection (4A) omit "or a mayor and council manager executive".

Schedule 4, page 187, line 10, at end insert—

"(1) Section 79 (qualifications for election and holding office) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) omit ", or be qualified to be elected and to be an elected mayor,".

(1) Section 80 (disqualification for election and holding office) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) in the words before paragraph (a) omit ", and be disqualified for being elected or being an elected mayor,".

(1) Section 100G (principal councils to publish additional information) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1)(a) for the second "and" substitute "together with, in the case of a councillor,".

(1) Section 100J (application of Part 5A to new authorities, Common Council, etc) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (4)(a)—

(a) for "from "ward" onwards" substitute "after "together with"";(b) before "name" insert "the".

(3) In subsection (4)(aa)—

(a) for "from "ward" onwards" substitute "after "together with"";(b) before "name" insert "the".

(4) In subsection (4)(b) for "from "and the ward" onwards" substitute "after "for the time being"".

(5) In subsection (4)(c)—

(a) before "ward" insert ", in the case of a councillor, the";(b) before "constituent" insert "the".

(6) In subsection (4A)—

(a) before "the ward" insert "together with, in the case of a councillor,";(b) before the first "whether" insert "and".

(1) Section 249 (honorary aldermen and freemen) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) for "councillors" substitute "members".

(3) In subsection (2) for "councillor" substitute "member".

(1) Section 270 (general provisions as to interpretation) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) for the definition of "leader and cabinet executive" substitute—

""leader and cabinet executive means"—

(a) in relation to England: a leader and cabinet executive (England);(b) in relation to Wales: a leader and cabinet executive (Wales);".

(3) In subsection (1) insert the following definitions at the appropriate places—

""leader and cabinet executive (England)" has the same meaning as in Part 2 of the Local Government Act 2000;";

""leader and cabinet executive (Wales)" has the same meaning as in Part 2 of the Local Government Act 2000;".

(4) In subsection (4A) omit "or a mayor and council manager executive".

(1) Schedule 2 (constitution and membership of London borough councils) is amended as follows.

(2) For paragraph 5C substitute—

"5C (1) The council shall consist of an elected mayor, a chairman and councillors.

(2) A reference in this Act to a member of the council is a reference to—

(a) the chairman of the council,(b) a councillor of the council, or(c) the elected mayor of the council."

(1) Schedule 12 (meetings and proceedings of local authorities) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 5(5) (who presides over meeting of council operating mayoral executive) omit "or a mayor and council manager executive"."

Schedule 4, page 188, line 3, leave out paragraph (a)

Schedule 4, page 188, line 13, leave out paragraph 14

Schedule 4, page 188, line 30, leave out paragraph 19

Schedule 4, page 188, line 34, leave out paragraph (a)

Schedule 4, page 189, line 39, leave out paragraphs 24 to 27

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendment No. 79:

After Schedule 4, insert the following new Schedule—

"New arrangements for executives: transitional provisionPart 1Old-style leader and cabinet executiveApplication of Part

1 This Part applies to a local authority in England if, at the relevant time, the authority is operating an old-style leader and cabinet executive.

Continued operation of existing executive

2 (1) The coming into force of section 62(5) does not prevent the local authority from continuing to operate the old-style leader and cabinet executive until the end of the transitional period.

(2) For as long as the local authority continues to operate the old-style leader and cabinet executive, any enactment amended or repealed by this Part of this Act continues to apply in relation to the local authority, and to the executive and its operation, as if the amendment or repeal had not been made.

Change in form of executive

3 (1) The local authority must make a change in governance arrangements of the kind set out in section 33A of the LGA 2000 (new form of executive).

(2) Sections 33E, 33F, 33G, 33I(2) and 33J of the LGA 2000 apply to a change in governance arrangements required by this paragraph as they apply to a change made under section 33A.

(3) In the application of section 33G by virtue of this paragraph, "relevant elections" has the meaning given in paragraph 5.

(4) Any resolution to make the change in governance arrangements must be passed—

(a) at a meeting which is specially convened for the purpose of deciding the resolution with notice of the object, and(b) during the permitted resolution period specified in the second column of the following table in relation to the authority.

Type of local authority Permitted resolution period
Metropolitan district The period ending with 31 December 2009
County The period ending with 31 December 2008
London borough The period ending with 31 December 2009
Non-metropolitan district The period ending with 31 December 2010

(5) The Secretary of State may by order provide that a permitted resolution period is to end later than the last day of the period specified in the table.

Failure to change form of executive: automatic change

4 (1) This paragraph applies if the local authority does not make a change in governance arrangements in accordance with paragraph 3.

(2) Before the end of the transitional period, the local authority must draw up and adopt executive arrangements which provide for a leader and cabinet executive (England).

(3) But if it appears to the Secretary of State that the authority will fail to comply with sub-paragraph (2), the Secretary of State may by order specify executive arrangements which provide for a leader and cabinet executive (England).

(4) The leader and cabinet executive (England) which is provided for under sub-paragraph (2) or (3) shall come into operation on the last day of the transitional period.

(5) Arrangements which the Secretary of State specifies under sub-paragraph (3) are to be treated as having been made by the local authority itself.

(6) Arrangements which come into operation in accordance with sub-paragraph (4) are to be treated as being operated after the passing of a resolution of the authority under section 33F of the LGA 2000.

(7) As soon as practicable after executive arrangements are adopted under sub-paragraph (2), or specified under sub-paragraph (3), the local authority must comply with the duties set out in the following provisions of the LGA 2000—

(a) section 29(2)(a);(b) section 29(2)(b)(ii) to (v).Interpretation

5 (1) In this Part—

"LGA 2000" means the Local Government Act 2000 (c. 22);

"old-style leader and cabinet executive" means a leader and cabinet executive of the form specified in section 11(3) of the LGA 2000;

"relevant elections" means the first ordinary elections of councillors of the local authority which take place after the end of the permitted resolution period (within the meaning of paragraph 3(4)(b));

"relevant time" means the time immediately before section 62(5) comes into force;

"transitional period" means the period that—

(a) starts when section 62(5) comes into force, and(b) ends with the third day after the day of the relevant elections.

(2) Expressions used in this Part of this Schedule and in Part 2 of the LGA 2000 have the same meaning in this Part as in that Part.

Part 2Mayor and council manager executiveApplication of Part

6 This Part applies to a local authority in England if, at the relevant time, the authority is operating a mayor and council manager executive.

Continued operation of existing executive

7 (1) The coming into force of section 62(6) does not prevent the local authority from continuing to operate the mayor and council manager executive.

(2) For as long as the local authority continues to operate the mayor and council manager executive, any enactment amended or repealed by this Part of this Act continues to apply in relation to the local authority, and to the executive and its operation, as if the amendment or repeal had not been made.

Change in form of executive

8 (1) The local authority must make a change in governance arrangements of the kind set out in section 33A of the LGA 2000 (new form of executive).

(2) Sections 33E, 33F, 33I(2) and 33J of the LGA 2000 apply to a change in governance arrangements required by this paragraph as they apply to a change made under section 33A.

9 (1) This paragraph applies if the proposals drawn up in accordance with section 33E provide for a change to a mayor and cabinet executive.

(2) The proposals must specify the day on which the authority is to cease operating the mayor and council manager executive and start operating the mayor and cabinet executive.

(3) The day specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (2) must fall before the day which is expected to be the last day of the relevant mayoral term.

(4) Any resolution to make the change in governance arrangements must be passed—

(a) at a meeting which is specially convened for the purpose of deciding the resolution with notice of the object, and(b) on or before 31 December 2008 or such later date as the Secretary of State may by order provide.

(5) The following sub-paragraphs apply if the local authority adopt the mayor and cabinet executive.

(6) On the day specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (2), the local authority must—

(a) cease operating the mayor and council manager executive, and(b) start operating the mayor and cabinet executive.

(7) The council manager ceases to hold office when the local authority ceases to operate the mayor and council manager executive.

(8) But—

(a) the mayor does not cease to hold office, and(b) his term of office is not affected,by virtue of the local authority ceasing to operate the mayor and council manager executive.

(9) Subject to sub-paragraph (6), the local authority must implement the change in governance arrangements in accordance with the timetable in the proposals.

(10) Any arrangements (including any enactment or subordinate legislation) which apply to the election of the mayor of the mayor and council manager executive—

(a) apply to the first election of the mayor of the mayor and cabinet executive as if it were the election of the mayor of the mayor and council manager executive, and(b) subject to any order under Part 3, apply in the same way to subsequent elections of the mayor of the mayor and cabinet executive.

10 (1) This paragraph applies if the proposals drawn up in accordance with section 33E provide for a change to a leader and cabinet executive (England).

(2) Section 33K(2), (3), (5) and (6) of the LGA 2000 apply to the change as they would if the change were, by virtue of section 33M of the LGA 2000, subject to approval in a referendum.

(3) Any resolution to make the change in governance arrangements must be passed on or before the earlier of these days—

(a) the last day of the period of 28 days that begins with the day when the referendum is held;(b) 31 December 2008, or such later date as the Secretary of State may by order provide.

(4) Section 45(1) of the LGA 2000 does not prevent a referendum from being held in accordance with section 33K of the LGA 2000 as applied by sub-paragraph (2).

(5) The proposals must provide for the local authority to cease operating the mayor and council manager executive and start operating the leader and cabinet executive (England) on the day which is expected to be the last day of the relevant mayoral term.

(6) The following sub-paragraphs apply if the local authority adopt the leader and cabinet executive (England).

(7) On the day specified in accordance with sub-paragraph (5), the local authority must—

(a) cease operating the mayor and council leader executive, and(b) start operating the leader and cabinet executive (England).

(8) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), the local authority must implement the change in governance arrangements in accordance with the timetable in the proposals.

(9) If the local authority has held its annual meeting in 2009 before changing to the leader and cabinet executive (England), the authority must hold a meeting within the 21 days following the day on which it changes to that form of executive.

(10) For the purposes of section 44B of the LGA 2000, that meeting is to be treated as a relevant annual meeting.

Failure to change form of executive: automatic change

11 (1) This paragraph applies if the local authority does not make a change in its executive arrangements in accordance with paragraph 8.

(2) Before the end of the transitional period, the local authority must draw up and adopt executive arrangements which provide for a mayor and cabinet executive.

(3) But if it appears to the Secretary of State that the authority will fail to comply with sub-paragraph (2), the Secretary of State may by order specify executive arrangements which provide for a mayor and cabinet executive.

(4) The mayor and cabinet executive which is provided for under sub-paragraph (2) or (3) shall come into operation on the last day of the transitional period.

(5) Arrangements which the Secretary of State specifies under sub-paragraph (3) are to be treated as having been made by the local authority itself.

(6) Arrangements which come into operation in accordance with sub-paragraph (4) are to be treated as being operated after the passing of a resolution of the authority under section 33F of the LGA 2000.

(7) As soon as practicable after executive arrangements are adopted under sub-paragraph (2), or specified under sub-paragraph (3), the local authority must comply with the duties set out in the following provisions of the LGA 2000—

(a) section 29(2)(a);(b) section 29(2)(b)(ii) to (v).Interpretation

12 (1) In this Part—

"LGA 2000" means the Local Government Act 2000 (c. 22);

"relevant election day" means the day in 2009 on which an ordinary election of a mayor would take place if the local authority continued to operate a mayor and council manager executive;

"relevant mayoral term", in relation to proposals, means the term of office of the person who is mayor when the proposals are drawn up;

"relevant time" means the time immediately before section 62(6) comes into force;

"transitional period" means the period that—

(a) starts when section 62(6) comes into force, and(b) ends with the third day after the relevant election day.

(2) Expressions used in this Part of this Schedule and in Part 2 of the LGA 2000 have the same meaning in this Part as in that Part.

Part 3Other transitional provision

13 (1) The Secretary of State may by order make transitional, saving or transitory provision for the purposes of—

(a) supplementing or giving full effect to Part 3 of this Act; or(b) making provision consequential on the passing of Part 3 of this Act.

(2) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may, in particular, make—

(a) provision as to the dates on which and years in which relevant elections may or must be held;(b) provision as to the intervals between relevant elections;(c) provision as to the term of office of any member of any form of executive;(d) provision as to when sections 33A to 33D of the LGA 2000 are to begin to apply in relation to a local authority; (e) provision as to when section 39(6) and (7) of the LGA 2000 are to begin to apply in relation to a local authority.

(3) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may, in particular, make provision to supplement any provision made in Part 1 or 2 of this Schedule.

(4) An order under sub-paragraph (1) may not make provision of the kind that may be made under section 240.

(5) In this paragraph "relevant election" means—

(a) an election for the return of an elected mayor;(b) the election by a local authority of the executive leader of a leader and cabinet executive (England)."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 18 [Repeals]:

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

moved Amendments Nos. 80 to 82:

Schedule 18, page 243, line 37, column 2, at beginning insert—

"In section 3(4A) the words "or a mayor and council manager executive"."

Schedule 18, page 244, line 14, leave out from beginning to end of line 15

Schedule 18, page 244, line 38, at end insert—

"Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48) Section 20(5)(f) and (g)(i) to (iii)."

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Photo of Baroness Andrews Baroness Andrews Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Communities and Local Government)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Moved accordingly, and on Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.