Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 8:26 pm on 10 October 2007.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Lord Greaves Lord Greaves Spokesperson in the Lords, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs, Spokesperson in the Lords, Department for Communities and Local Government 8:26, 10 October 2007

My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 163A, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 163B. They are about a situation that could occur—probably not very often—when the recommendations of what we now call a parish review, which will in future be called a community governance review, recommends the abolition of a parish council. That refers to the second amendment.

The first amendment refers to when the parish review proposes that a parish is too small to have a parish council. My amendment would allow a parish council to be created in appropriate circumstances even if the number of electors was below 150.

We discussed both these issues in Committee in a rather different form, when some of us expressed concern that the Government's proposal would make it more restrictive when community governance reviews have taken place, so that the thresholds on where there can be or has to be a parish council are significantly raised. I have accepted the Government's views on the middle range, where the level at which there has to be a parish council is raised significantly. I do not agree with it but understand that it is a matter for local discussion. There are a number of instances of existing parishes with very active parish councils that in future would be unable to have a council. That is against the philosophy of devolution of allowing appropriate local activities.

The second amendment is about what happens after a community governance review recommends that a parish should be abolished either in whole or in part so that it would be a non-parish area. In other words, after the community governance review, the present parish government would be abolished. That may not happen very often and it may not be very likely, but I know of at least two instances where, I believe, had the district councils had the ability to abolish the only existing parishes within their district they might well have done so. They regarded the parish as being, frankly, a damn nuisance. They refused to parish any of the rest of the district and were continually at war with that parish. Whether that was right or wrong, and whose fault it was in each case, is a matter of opinion. However, if they had had the opportunity to carry out a community governance review and had had the final say, the future of that parish would have been at risk. If a level of government exists and is being abolished altogether, there ought to be a right to a parish poll, not least because parish meetings and polls are an established part of the system of parish governance.

I am proposing that if a community governance review would result in the abolition of a parished area, either all or part of a parish, and a parish meeting is convened to discuss it and passes a resolution, or if a third of the electors—which is quite high, even in small place—demand that a parish poll is held and it is held, the abolition would not take place. When we discussed this in Committee, the Minister said that it was a matter of the Government's proposals for devolution to councils, and that the district councils should therefore have the final say. The problem is that that is a misreading of devolution. Devolution is not just a matter of giving more powers to one particular tier or level in a system of government, but of looking at the system as a whole. There ought to be at least some safeguards against people at one tier, the district tier, of the system taking action against a lower tier, the parish tier—which could be arbitrary or unreasonable but they would legally have the power to do so—without some safeguards to at least constrain them. We have safeguards in Parliament. Between us, we can abolish local authorities if we want to, but only after a whole series of debates, arguments and so on. Devolution needs to go not just to the district, but below and beyond the district to parishes, to at least give people in those areas some guarantee that the districts are not going to make unreasonable decisions.

I am not suggesting that the wording I have put forward is ideal, but that some safeguards ought to be put into the system. This is put forward again in an attempt to make the Government's new proposals for community governance and community governance reviews sensible and practical, and to avoid the sort of unnecessary and unseemly rows at local level which will occur if people think that actions are being taken that are not fair, and against which they have no means of redress at all. I beg to move.