My Lords, I add my voice to those who have thanked the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for giving us the opportunity to debate an extremely interesting subject. I also commend my noble friend Lord Rooker for departing the moment that this debate started.

There is much with which we all agree. The background and the coalescence between the victim and the offender were graphically outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, echoing something started by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. Therefore, I start with those issues with which we all agree.

Prison is for serious, violent, dangerous and persistent offenders and should be the last resort. That is the statement made by the Government and I know from listening to the various contributions throughout the House that there is agreement on that. I assume that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, agrees because I have never heard him dissent from it.

The importance of understanding the innate vulnerability of some of the women in our estate has to be underlined. When we say that we have to care for victims, we have to appreciate, as many noble Lords have outlined, that many of the women in our estate were in the first instance victims whose needs were not adequately addressed. I highlight the issue that has been raised by a number of noble Lords, that of domestic violence and sexual assault. Our figures indicate that between 46 and 56 per cent of the women prison population have been affected by those two things. However, when I visited Holloway prison last week, the figure given to me by the governor about women in his estate was that 76 per cent had been affected by domestic violence and sexual assault. They were at one stage victims—women who used, by way of some form of panacea, drink or drugs, became mentally ill or resorted to prostitution or acquisitive crime as a way of providing a salve for the pain that was within them.

But we must also appreciate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, and others accept, that some women in our prison estate have created and committed very serious offences indeed. It is alarming, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, highlighted, that some women have sought to emulate some of the more aberrant behaviour of men in relation to gang culture, violence and abuse of alcohol, which has materially changed the way in which they have offended and the seriousness of those offences. As a result, we all find it depressing that over the past 10 years the number of women sentenced to determinate sentences of four years or more has increased the most—by 222 per cent to 1,322. Violence against the person accounted for 17 per cent over the past 10 years, so among the group of women for whom we care there are regrettably some very seriously dangerous and violent people. We all must acknowledge that there is an element of risk which has to be addressed.

The original call for a women's justice board, similar to the Youth Justice Board, was made in a recommendation by the Prison Reform Trust, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, indicated. Dorothy Wedderburn's report of 2000 clearly set that out. It has been repeated variously, including by my noble friend Lord Acton—or should I say Lord Guildenstern.