Health Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 4:30 pm on 19 June 2006.

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Photo of Lord Warner Lord Warner Minister of State (Reform), Department of Health, Minister of State (Department of Health) (NHS Reform) 4:30, 19 June 2006

My Lords, if that is in the Chief Medical Officer's letter, I would be glad to see it.

Amendment No. 1, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Russell-Johnston, paves the way for the new clause in Amendment No. 2, which allows premises that serve food to continue to allow smoking if certain conditions are fulfilled. The scope of the new clause is wide. It would allow smoking not only in pubs that serve food, but also in cafes and restaurants, and even in schools, hospitals and offices that have canteens. In fact, absolutely anywhere that served any food would be exempted provided that it met the specified conditions. I find it hard to believe that the noble Lords who tabled the amendment really intend to exempt all the office blocks with a canteen, yet that might be the effect. Despite explaining that unintended consequence during Grand Committee, the amendment has been retabled unchanged.

As far as the Government are concerned, allowing smoking in premises that serve food has never been an option. It was not put forward in the Labour Party's manifesto and it was not offered as an option in the free vote at Report stage in the other place. I recognise that the noble Lord has tried to put in place certain safeguards in his new clause. However, as I said during Grand Committee, I am not at all persuaded that those will really provide protection for workers or the public from the harmful effects of second-hand smoke. For example, the amendment provides no clarity on what is meant by,

"physically separated smoking and no-smoking areas".

Does the noble Lord propose that some kind of wall should separate those areas? Should there be closing doors between them?

There is very clear evidence, as a number of noble Lords have said, that ventilation does not provide a solution to eliminating the health risks associated with second-hand smoke. Based on evidence, the Government do not recognise that ventilation in any form provides a solution to the health risks associated with second-hand smoke. Noble Lords cited the often quoted research conducted at the European Commission Joint Research Centre's INDOORTRON facility, which found that,

"'wind tunnel' like rates or other high rates of dilution ventilation would be expected to be required to achieve pollutant levels close to ambient air limit values".

I recognise that a number of us like alfresco eating, but I suggest that most people would not choose to have their food in a wind tunnel.

Research that further demonstrates the lack of efficacy of ventilation was published in January 2003 by the Health and Safety Authority and the Office of Tobacco Control in the Republic of Ireland. It states:

"Research suggests that presently available ventilation technology . . . is unsatisfactory for controlling worker exposure to ETS. Air cleaning is similarly problematic. Of proposed new technology, displacement ventilation is viewed as having the potential for a 90 per cent reduction in ETS levels but even this would still leave exposure levels 1500 to 2500 times the acceptable risk level for hazardous air pollutants".

Furthermore, any requirement for ventilation would be significantly costly—a point eloquently made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege—and, given the lack of effectiveness, it would be a burden for business that simply could not be justified.

The new clause proposes that,

"no employee is required to work in any smoking area".

My noble friend Lord Faulkner made a good point about that, although a number of noble Lords contested it. I ask the House to consider whether it is really practical and whether it would be fair to ask employees to make that choice if, for example, they felt that their job would be at risk if they refused. Indeed, taking the scenario further, what would happen in a premises serving food where no member of staff was prepared to expose himself to harmful second-hand smoke? Would the dirty plates stack up? Would members of staff be coerced into working in the smoking area? I do not believe that this provision is practical. As I set out, I believe that this amendment would create more problems than it would solve, and it has absolutely no support from the Government.