Equality Bill [HL]

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 6:15 pm on 6 July 2005.

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Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Constitutional Affairs) 6:15, 6 July 2005

We are all agreed on the broad principle that the commissioners should reflect experience and expertise in these areas. I think everyone is quite comfortable with that. My noble friends bring a wealth of personal experience and knowledge of the long and proud history of the trade union movement in this area. We want the commission to make good use of that expertise and experience. Indeed, it will need to if it is to succeed in its mission.

Equally, I have absolutely no doubt that if the commission is to be successful a deep understanding of the day-to-day pressures experienced by business—and especially by small and medium sized businesses which often have a limited capacity to understand, assimilate and implement the law—will also be critical.

Indeed, we shall not be able to identify effective ways of engaging with people unless we take innovative approaches based on the knowledge and experience provided by those who have expertise in the trade union movement and in business. That is why we have provided in paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 1, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, referred, a requirement to,

"have regard to the desirability of their [the commissioners] together having experience and knowledge relating to the matters in respect of which the Commission has functions".

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and the noble Lord, Lord Lester, as we have discussed already in our debates, that this is about not fettering the way in which the commission needs to be set up and the expertise and experience that needs to be brought forward. The Secretary of State will need to ensure that trade union and business interests are properly reflected in the commissioner appointments. That is well understood within the basis of what I have already said about the Bill.

Inevitably, of course, the amendment would cause some technical difficulties. However, my noble friend has indicated that she is probing—certainly at this point—to see what the Government's response will be.

My noble friend will know, too, that I have already indicated that I will try to avoid lists of any kind, for the reasons that I have given. If we were to insert a reference to trade unions and/or business into the Bill, it is highly likely that a number of other people would feel equally that they had some contribution to make—indeed, they would have merit in so doing—and we would inevitably end up with a list. We should avoid that at all costs if we possibly can.

So, within the context of understanding entirely the concern of my noble friends to ensure that we use the experience and expertise of the trade union movement and recognise its contribution and the contribution of business, we would expect that to be taken into account by the Secretary of State. It is an integral part of the way in which we have set up the legislation. I hope that on that basis my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment.