Higher Education Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 2:30 pm on 22 June 2004.

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Photo of Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn Conservative 2:30, 22 June 2004

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to dissolve the proposed grouping and speak to Amendment No. 2 now and Amendment No. 15 in its place when it is called. I hope that that will be for the convenience of the House. My reasoning is that I have learnt that a number of noble Lords have reservations about Amendment No. 2 but are much happier with Amendment No. 15, so I shall not deal further with Amendment No. 15 at present.

Amendment No. 2 relates to Wales, which is why it becomes more complicated than might otherwise be the case. Your Lordships will recall that on Report precisely the same wording was carried as an amendment proposed by my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Skelmersdale. It was proposed to Clause 24:

"Condition to be imposed by English funding bodies".

It therefore had the effect that students on a first degree course lasting for more than three years—such as not only medics, vets and architects but many studying four-year courses in science and engineering at many universities—would be required to pay top-up fees only for the first three years of their course, not subsequently. That amendment was carried in relation to England.

When we reach Amendment No. 15, I will point out that the amendment carried on Report left the burden of paying those fees on universities, whereas Amendment No. 15 would place that burden on the Secretary of State. But for the moment, Amendment No. 2 would introduce provisions to Clause 27:

"Condition that may be required to be imposed by Higher Education Funding Council for Wales", to establish a symmetry between the situation in Wales and that in England. Although I am no expert on higher education in Wales, it seems inequitable that students at Welsh universities should be expected to pay top-up fees for fourth, fifth or even sixth years for a first degree course whereas, in the Bill as already amended, students at English universities are not expected so to do.

That is the purpose of the amendment. I beg to move.