House again in Committee on Clause 30.

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 8:23 pm on 17 May 2004.

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Photo of Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare), Department for Education and Skills, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare), Department for Work and Pensions, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Work and Pensions) (Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare) (also Department for Education and Science), Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Education and Skills) (Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare) (also Department for Work and Pensions) 8:23, 17 May 2004

It is always extremely helpful to debate one group of amendments while thinking about the next group. I will confine myself to these amendments, but I will bear in mind what noble Lords have said about the next group of amendments—Amendment No. 80A in particular, which picks up the theme that noble Lords have identified. I will try to work through them reasonably speedily and address the concerns raised.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said, Amendments Nos. 80, 91, 92 and 93 all seek to remove the regulation-making power relating to the content of access plans, the approval of plans and the maximum length of time a plan may be in force.

We considered very carefully what was most appropriately enshrined in primary legislation and what we felt best left to secondary legislation. We need a degree of flexibility, within the bounds of the remit of the director, as to the content of access plans. That said, I accept the need for clear boundaries within which the director can operate, and within which regulations can be made. There also needs to be appropriate levels of parliamentary scrutiny.

As noble Lords will see from the Marshalled List, I have brought forward Amendments Nos. 110 and 111, which make the regulation-making power in Clauses 31(2) and 35(2)—covering the content of access plans and the enforcement of plans—subject to the affirmative procedure. That is the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, as noble Lords will be aware. But I do not agree that we should have no regulations at all. They are a well-travelled and recognised route for enacting provisions which may need some changes and adjustments to be made without primary legislation.

For example, a provision about the financial information that institutions could be required to provide to students: in time it is quite possible that we may be able to remove that requirement in regulations if information were available through another route. Under this amendment we would be unable to do so.

Amendment No. 80 would prevent institutions being required to include in their plans commitments to running outreach activities to raise aspirations and attract applications from under-represented groups. There is no mention of under-represented groups in this amendment. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, have said that the term is insufficiently clear, but it remains the best way of expressing in legal terms what widening participation is about. I am happy to discuss whether there is a better term, but we have checked and that is the best term. We do not, as I have made absolutely clear, wish to interfere with admissions, but improving the number of applications from under-represented groups is to be encouraged, as we have deliberated this afternoon.

The amendment would also, of course, remove from the face of the Bill any reference to the provision of information to the director. We believe that it is important that the director can ask for and receive relevant information where necessary. This would not be onerous. The director would simply ask institutions to confirm on an annual basis that they have met the commitments in their plan. It would be important that the director could ask for any information needed to check that this was the case were it ever called into question. Clause 37 provides that the director may exchange information with HEFCE and with the Teacher Training Agency. This means that he would not need to seek information from institutions which had already supplied it to these bodies.

Amendment No. 91 is a consequential amendment to Amendment No. 80 and seeks to remove reference to our regulation-making power, which I have already discussed.

Amendment No. 81 does not relate to a drafting issue, as some noble Lords may have felt. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, it would require that the provisions in the plans should relate to both the promotion of higher education "and" the promotion of equality of opportunity in connection with access to higher education. The Bill currently states "or", recognising that in England we intend the focus of plans to be clearly about the latter.

Let me explain briefly but slightly further. The clause covers both England and Wales. While in England we want our plans to be focused solely on the promotion of equality of opportunity in connection with access to higher education, the National Assembly for Wales has yet to make a decision on whether to introduce variable fees and, if so, what arrangements it will make for plans. It may want to focus more generally on the promotion of higher education.

I asked for clarification from Jane Davidson, the Assembly Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. Let me read a brief extract of the letter that I received from her. It states:

"I do not envisage defining the contents of fee plans, whether in relation to access or to the promotion of HE, in such tight terms to allow institutions no flexibility or in such tight terms as to interfere with their autonomy. I am firmly of the opinion that institutions must be given the space to respond to their local circumstances. Rather, I envisage a process whereby essentially institutions propose what additional contribution they will make to higher education in Wales as a result of their fee income".

I hope that gives some assurances on how the Assembly envisages its plans operating in Wales.

I know that concerns have been expressed by organisations such as SKILL and the Royal National Institute for the Blind, but I can assure the Committee that we have absolutely no intention of causing difficulties for them in England with these clauses. I hope I have reassured the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that that is not what we intend. We shall return to this issue with the next group of amendments. I am of course willing to reflect on the matter if that will help.

I was going to say that I have some sympathy with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but he is not in his place and his amendment will not be moved by anyone on his behalf. I shall swiftly move on to my conclusion.

I should say to the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, in regard to Amendment No. 92 that, under our proposals, access plans will subsume the widening participation strategies which institutions currently submit to the funding council. No institution will have to produce both. We therefore believe that the plans will generate negligible additional burden. This is particularly true given the closeness of the working relationship between the director and HEFCE in that context. I know the noble Baroness was very worried at Second Reading about that issue.

We believe that it is very important to reject these amendments. Amendment No. 92 would delete all the regulation powers in Clause 32 and instead would produce a strategic plan in perpetuity. We do not believe that is the right way to go. There would also be technical difficulties with the amendment.

Amendment No. 93 seeks that the institutions' first action plan should last no longer than three years. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent an institution from proposing an action plan that lasts only three years. The flexibility we have built in enables institutions to align their action plans in a range of different ways, tying in with their financial cycle, their financial strategy, their business planning cycle and so on. The Bill provides a power to specify the maximum period that a plan may be in force, and the Committee will see from the draft regulations that we have indicated that that period should be five years.

I hope that I have answered some of the queries that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, had in putting forward her amendments. We believe that we would need the flexibility of secondary legislation and regulations. I also hope that I have given enough reassurance to enable the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.