Children Bill [HL]

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 7:44 pm on 30 March 2004.

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Photo of Lord Thomas of Gresford Lord Thomas of Gresford Shadow Minister, Home Affairs, Shadow Minister, Welsh Affairs 7:44, 30 March 2004

My Lords, creating a Children's Commissioner for England whose job it is to promote awareness of the interests and views of children makes him sound like a public relations consultant. Worse than that, he will be very much under the guidance of those who employ him. He cannot act independently; he can act only on that which the Secretary of State allows him to act on.

We are asked, "We have only £2.5 million to spend; how much do you want?". That was the Minister's answer when we discussed the matter last night. I pay tribute to her for attending the Welsh meeting that we had last evening. How much do we want? I would have thought that parents in England will want as least as much for their children as those in Scotland and Wales do. I will be surprised if the parents of children in England are satisfied with a level of commitment that is one-eighth of the commitment of the National Assembly government in Wales to children in Wales and one-twelfth of the commitment of the Scottish Parliament to Scottish children. That is the level of funding that is being made available.

In February, 2001, we had the Second Reading of the Children's Commissioner for Wales Bill. I was proud of that Bill. It was a product of the partnership government in Wales, the Labour and Liberal Democrat government in power at that time. They had promoted it, and I knew fairly well what they wanted. My suggestion that I should address this House from the government Benches, as I represented the government of Wales, was squashed by the usual channels—I really do not know why.

At that time, I said that we wanted a Children's Commissioner who represented the whole child, not just part of the child. Secondly, I said that the Bill was a pale shadow of what the entire Assembly wanted—all parties—in that the Children's Commissioner for Wales was to be excluded from being concerned with devolved matters. I said in terms that the Children's Commissioner for Wales would not be able to comment on child poverty and that he would not be allowed to enter into the sphere of the Home Office. I think that I also said that it was possibly the Home Office that was resisting the suggestion that the Children's Commissioner for Wales should be involved in Home Office matters. The purpose of the commissioner, surely, is to embarrass Ministers and provoke them into action in just the way that the Chief Inspector of Prisons has done so successfully—the present incumbent and her two predecessors. That was the sort of figure that we wanted.

We ended up with a Children's Commissioner who could, at least, take his own initiatives. We also had a commissioner who would protect the rights of the child. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, reminded us a short time ago, the UN convention was enshrined into the regulations to be made under that Bill. We ended up with a strong commissioner, strengthened by the concession that was made by the much lamented Lord Williams of Mostyn, who, I am sure, was doing only what he had wanted to do, when he said that the Children's Commissioner for Wales could, at least, address topics that were not devolved and make reports to the National Assembly, which could, if it so wished, carry the matters forward.

It was as a direct result of the amendment made by Lord Williams of Mostyn that, in the first year of his operation, the commissioner in Wales made a report on child poverty, notwithstanding the fact that social security was not a devolved matter. It is because of that amendment made by Lord Williams that in the programme for 2002–03 and ongoing, the commissioner was concerned with anti-social behaviour, which is essentially a Home Office matter. He covered the fields of education, welfare, and so forth. He was an effective and popular figure.

The devolution argument has reared its ugly head once again in the presentation of this Bill. Everyone in Wales—cross-party and the National Assembly—wants a commissioner who has the rights and authority to deal with all the issues that involve children in Wales and not an English commissioner pushing over the border. Someone suggested the words, "Keep your hands off Welsh children", but perhaps that puts it a little bit too far.

We want to ensure that the devolution division is not enshrined further. All the time, Ministers talk about the devolution settlement. The only settlement that there was on devolution was between one half of the Labour Party and the other half of the Labour Party. Ron Davies reminded us that devolution is a continuing process and not an event. The fact that in this Bill we welcome the devolution of CAFCASS to the jurisdiction of the National Assembly is an example of how things are moving on. We on these Benches hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and his commission report tomorrow, we shall see the way forward for the process to continue, to develop and to give Wales the strong government that its people require.

We are distressed that this division is being emphasised between devolved and non-devolved matters when the Bill is being considered. We find that in Wales, there is no support for it. We find that the jurisdiction of the Welsh commissioner is to be diminished. As my colleague in Cardiff, Kirsty Williams, put it, it is a step backwards or potentially a step backwards unless your Lordships do something about it in the consideration of the Bill.

I am sure that there are many good things in the Bill as regards the provision of services and the integration and co-ordination of issues that concern children, which my colleagues have already addressed and welcomed. For Welsh people in this House and in Wales, there is a very considerable problem if we find that children in Wales will to suffer because of some artificial division between devolved and non-devolved matters. We want a children's commissioner that acts for every child in Wales with every problem that that child has to face. We want someone who is readily available and identifiable to whom children and their parents can turn for advice and help. With that in mind, I am sure that your Lordships from Wales and elsewhere will support our attempts to amend the Bill.