European Union Membership

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 6:30 pm on 11 February 2004.

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Photo of Lord Dubs Lord Dubs Chair of Labour Peers 6:30, 11 February 2004

My Lords, I listened with interest to the noble Lord's speech. I can find one or two points on which I half agree with him and a great deal on which I disagree with him fundamentally. But I have to say that my main perception of his speech is that there appear to be two Europes: the Europe in which I live and the Europe in which he lives. They are so far apart that I do not see how we can inhabit the same territory.

About five years ago, I was invited by the British Council to attend a conference in Prague on the subject of European enlargement. That conference was attended by persons from many of the existing EU countries, as well as individuals from most of the 10 countries that are about to join Europe on 1 May. What struck me forcefully was that these people, who were mainly from countries that had been under communism, saw so much purpose in their countries joining the EU. It was felt that their main mission in life, as countries, was to become part of the EU and to come back to Europe. That enthusiasm and that wish to be part of the EU contrasts very sharply with the views that we have heard just now and which other critics of the EU purvey.

If so many people want to join the EU, how can it be the awful place that the noble Lord says that it is? That does not make any sense. Many of the arguments, although not all, would apply to the membership of other EU countries as well, yet they do not seem to have the sort of arguments and campaigning stance that the noble Lord has put forward.

I shall say something that the noble Lord will find even more contentious. Looking back over history, I believe that we shall be judged as a country as having made a big error in not having joined the European Iron and Steel Community way back in 1951. Had we done so, the EU would have been moulded much more in the way we would wish than some of its details are today. In other words, at the time we were the most powerful country in Europe; the Germans would have wanted a structure such as the EU set up because they would have wanted the credibility from becoming part of it; and the French were less forceful than we were. We made a mistake.

The reason why we were unable to join at the time was because we had not come to terms with the end of empire. We saw ourselves as an imperial power, and our interests stretched way beyond Europe to the far-flung parts of the world. I can understand why at the time it would have been difficult for any British government to say that we should join at the beginning, but it is a decision that has cost us dear with regard to a number of details of the EU.

The main detail is the common agricultural policy, on which I agree with the noble Lord. I am not happy about it for some of the reasons that he mentioned—because we support agriculture whose products are then sold in competition with the products of developing countries. I agree with the Trade Justice campaign. However, the CAP is already on its way to being changed, and the accession of the 10 countries will make it even more likely that the CAP will be changed further in the interests of this country and our agriculture.

I do not share the noble Lord's criticism of all things that come from Brussels—and he used some very strong language about it. I agree that some procedures in Brussels could be changed, and we are well on the way to doing that, if the decisions floated at the last IGC come to pass. With regard to joining the euro, I would argue that it is not a matter of whether we do so but when the time is most appropriate.

However, I do not agree with the noble Lord's condemnation of all the figures that show how much we benefit. The EU will contain 450 million people by May. I cannot easily say, "It doesn't matter, we can get all those benefits even if we are not members". Three million British jobs depend upon it. They may not all be lost if we were to leave the EU, but we might lose some of them. Fifty-five per cent of UK trade is with our EU partners; surely, that is pretty significant. I am not as confident as the noble Lord that there would be no change to our pattern of trade if we left the EU. The EU market is bigger than that of the United States and Japan combined. Our exports to the EU are three times greater than our exports to the United States. If the EU is as bad as the noble Lord says that it is, why have we managed such a big growth in exports to the EU? Why has not our trade to North America increased more?

The noble Lord said something about peace. I go along with John Hume, who said that the European Union was the longest and most successful peace process in world history. John Hume knows something about peace and peace processes, and I believe that he was right in what he said.

The EU gives us a chance to co-operate on security, anti-terrorist measures, difficulties with asylum and immigration policy and tackling international crime. We can deal with environmental issues together. The EU gives us in this country better opportunities for travel and for our students. It is very much in the interests of this country to be in the EU. We have more international influence through our membership of the EU than we would have if we were a small isolated country off the northern shores of Europe. Our sense of identity and Britishness has not in any way been weakened by membership of the EU. Other countries do not sense that, and I do not believe that it has any effect on us.

I welcome the enlargement of Europe. I welcome the fact that 10 countries that have given up communism are keen to join Europe and will do so on 1 May. I wish our industries and British industrialists were keener to invest in those countries; the Germans are doing far more in investment than we are, and we are losing out. There is an enormous opportunity there.

Finally, I have a vision of Europe in which the former communist countries and the western European countries are part of a greater endeavour. Yes, there are faults and weaknesses and there must be changes. However, I believe that it is a mission for peace and that we share our dedication to human rights, democracy and the freedom of the individual. Those values are important and they are what is driving other countries to join Europe. That is why I hope that we shall have none of the noble Lord's suggestions.