Speakership of the House

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 4:30 pm on 12 January 2004.

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Photo of Lord Carter Lord Carter Labour 4:30, 12 January 2004

My Lords, it was a great privilege and pleasure to serve on the Select Committee, which was chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. He has already explained very clearly some of the main recommendations that the committee made.

We were asked to recommend what arrangements should be in force if the House decides to proceed with having a Speaker. This debate is, therefore, largely about the modalities of the process. In what I hope is the not too distant future, the House will have a chance to take a decision on the principle of whether we should have our own Speaker. That is why I find the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, so curious. First, it is unusual to try to amend a take note Motion at all; at least, it is the first time in my experience that that has been done. Secondly, his line of argument seems much better suited to the later debate and the vote on the principle. However, that is a matter for the noble Lord.

There is one important point, however, which is about more than modality and should inform our debate. Quite properly, the Select Committee did not attempt to make a recommendation, but we have had a good deal of evidence on the point, and I believe that we should refer to it. Understandably, the debate about the Speakership has become entangled with the separate issue of the future of the office of Lord Chancellor. If it was not entangled before, it has certainly been deliberately entangled by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in his speech.

However, the Speakership of this House has no connection whatever with the other judicial, departmental and ceremonial functions of the Lord Chancellor. The 10 functions were listed by my late and much missed friend Lord Williams of Mostyn in the debate on the Motion to set up a Joint Committee, and were set out in much more detail in the consultation paper on reforming the office of Lord Chancellor. None has any connection with the Speakership of the House.

That was confirmed by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor on 14 July, in the debate on the Statement on constitutional reform, when I asked him whether,

"any of the proposed reforms described by my noble and learned friend in his Statement have any link to or effect on his role as Speaker of the House of Lords".

In answer, he said:

"My Lords, none of them has any impact on that at all. It is a matter for this House to determine how the Lord Chancellor discharges that particular function".—[Official Report, 14/7/03; col. 641.]

He was referring to the Speakership of the House. That statement was further confirmed when the noble and learned Lord gave evidence to the Select Committee. Those remarks are confirmation of the central point that, if the House wishes to proceed to have its own Speaker, it can do so entirely independently of later decisions regarding the office of Lord Chancellor.

Let us suppose that the Government had not produced their proposals in June—proposals that, I admit, caused a certain degree of excitement. This House could perfectly well have decided that it did not want the Prime Minister to choose the Speaker of the sovereign Chamber of Parliament. It would note that the Lord Chancellor was able to give only 10 per cent of his time to the Speakership, that he was exceptionally busy as a departmental Minister, that he was the head of the judiciary and that, because of the pressures on his time, he could not represent the House at Speakers' conferences and other important functions.

For all those reasons, the House could and can decide to have its own Speaker. It would not need a statute; it only requires amendments to our standing orders and the agreement of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, which is forthcoming. On the first page of the report, he said:

"I should say—and I think this has been made clear by me as well—I hope that the Lords would feel able to make different arrangements to allow me to cease to be Speaker, but that is a matter for the Lords, not a matter for me . . . I make it clear my own personal view is that, subject to proper alternative arrangements being made, it would facilitate other things that I do if I cease to be Speaker but, as I say, that is a matter for the Lords".

All the evidence that the Select Committee received was against having a Commons-type Speaker and in favour of self-regulation. I am well aware of the fears that if we have our own Speaker it will be the thin end of the wedge, and that the powers will inevitably grow. However, the powers of the Speaker will grow only if the House agrees and decides to amend our standing orders. The Speaker will not be able to rule on order unless the House wishes it. There is no such thing as a point of order in this House, precisely because there is no one to give a ruling. Only the House itself can change that, not the Speaker.

It is also true that the Select Committee has not recommended a single new function of the Speaker, merely the transfer of existing functions performed already by the Leader of the House and the Government Whips. That is hardly a root and branch constitutional upheaval. During my time in the House, on the opposition Front Bench and in government, I have always thought that it was rather odd, to say the least, that when the House is performing its proper function of holding the executive to account, with Starred Questions and PNQs and the like, a member of the executive decides whether to allow a PNQ and which group in the House should speak next on a Starred Question. It would be far from me to suggest that, during Starred Questions, the Chief Whip would ever whisper to the Leader, "Keep number three going because number four looks a bit tricky".

I refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, about the salary and the time spent on the Woolsack. The noble Lord was a member of the committee and he knows very well that we believed that the Speaker should do two stints a day, which is three hours on the Woolsack a day and not the half hour that he suggested. As for interventions from the Woolsack or the Chair in Committee, those of us who serve as Deputy Speakers intervene now, if noble Lords speak to the wrong amendment or get in a muddle over Commons amendments, which is a very easy thing to do.

We have referred already to the difficulties faced by the Lord Chancellor in attending Speakers' conferences and the like, and generally in giving more time for the House. The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, the Chairman of Committees, is not here today but in Canada, at the Commonwealth Speakers' conference. Every other Chamber in the Commonwealth will be represented by their Speakers in all their finery. This House will be represented by the Lord Chairman and, although I am sure that he will do it very well, other Speakers find that very odd. Having our own Speaker would enable us to have a Speaker for the House as well as of the House. Those who speak to schools and universities and at seminars and the like on the procedures and role of the House know how important that role is.

The title of the new office is also to be decided, as we have heard. The title "Lord Speaker" has the advantage that it already exists in our standing orders. On the other hand, there is the understandable wish to retain the title of Lord Chancellor, although the existing functions will be transferred elsewhere when the Bill goes through. The title of Lord Chancellor is clearly not available until the statutory process regarding the Lord Chancellor is complete. However, it is worth considering whether it might be possible to transfer the title of Lord Chancellor to the Speaker of the Lords when that statutory process is complete. We have heard already that there are precedents for the titles of Lord President of the Council and Lord Privy Seal.

I have made it clear that it is perfectly possible, if the House so decides, to proceed with the choice of our own Speaker. As the Select Committee report suggests, there is a role for a Speaker. It is a limited role as a part of self-regulation, and not a threat to it. The role is to guard the procedures of the House and the rights of back-benchers against the depredations of the Government and the usual channels, and I speak with all the authority of a former predator. The role is also to play a further role as the Speaker for the House which the Lord Chancellor is not able now to perform.

I hope that when the House comes to make its decision, it will decide that we should have our own Speaker, to be chosen by us and to perform the role and functions set out in the report of the Select Committee.