I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in all that he has said. He has put the case extremely well. Only a few months ago Parliament agreed to the creation of patients forums as successors to community health councils on the clear understanding that every NHS trust and every PCT would have one; in other words, both providers and commissioners. Never was there even a hint from Ministers that the creation of foundation trusts would render those assurances null and void as regards the providers. Only when this Bill was published did we realise that the goalposts had been moved even before they had been planted into the ground. So now, just as the new national system of patient and public involvement is being rolled out in statutory instruments, we are engaged in debating a Bill which ensures that that system will be condemned to a limited span of life. It is a state of affairs that must be unique in parliamentary history and demonstrates either a lack of candour by Ministers originally or else—which I find more likely—policy-making on the hoof and simply a disregard for undertakings given.
The argument that patients forums are no longer needed because of patient representation on boards of governors was dealt with very well by the noble Lord. It is an argument that rests on a false premise. Accountability has three strands: the governance strand; in other words, the mechanism by which an organisation is controlled and managed to ensure that it delivers; the scrutiny strand to make sure that what has been promised is properly delivered; and patient and public involvement, which influences the delivery of services to match the needs of users. Neither scrutiny nor patient and public involvement can be done in-house. They require an arm's length relationship to ensure impartiality and to avoid conflicts of interest. Governors are an intrinsic part of their organisation. Their lack of impartiality will mean that they cannot also be scrutineers. To blur the distinction between those three strands of accountability is bound to lead to all three of them being compromised.
It is no good the Government saying—as they do—that PCT patients forums will perform the scrutiny and involvement roles in foundation trusts. The remit of a PCT patients forum in this context is a much more limited one, as the noble Lord correctly said. At the end of the day foundation trusts can ignore what they say. That is a long way from the kind of influence and leverage that patients forums will have in ordinary NHS trusts. The absence of a duty to create a patients forum in every foundation trust should not be looked at in isolation, I suggest. It should be seen against the background of an absence of legal accountability elsewhere. Neither governors nor, indeed, members of a foundation trust are accountable in law to anyone at all.
The Government are saying that it is up to the constitution of each foundation trust to determine whethe there is a patients forum within the hospital. That is one instance where I could have wished that the Government had chosen to be more prescriptive, not less. That lays me open as an easy target for the Minister but I would find it surprising if he did not agree with me—as Ministers have stated repeatedly in the past—that a patients forum should be seen as one of the essential checks and balances in the delivery of a responsive and patient-centred health service.