asked Her Majesty's Government:

What assessment they have made of the recent anti-terrorist exercise at Bank station.

My Lords, our early view is that the elements we planned to test in the exercise worked well. There will, of course, be lessons to learn for all those involved.

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that illuminating reply. Is he aware of comments in The Times, and many other newspapers, on Monday that fire-fighters at Bank station,

"had to haul 13-stone dummies to the surface because the Health and Safety Executive would not allow them to carry people"?

Does that mean that if a fire-fighter finds someone in the Tube who is seriously injured and cannot walk, he will say, "Sorry, Gov, I can't help you unless you can get yourself to the surface"? That is not the way fire-fighters are supposed to work. It reminds me of the occasion when a Metropolitan Police commissioner was charged with allowing a policeman to chase a burglar across an unsafe roof. Is it not about time the Health and Safety Executive was brought under control?

My Lords, I am sorry to destroy the main proposition of my noble friend's question but the matter was not decided by the Health and Safety Executive and nor had it anything to do with it. Police cadets who took part in the exercise above and below ground were able to walk away from the supposed accident. Non-ambulant people with simulated serious injuries did not take part in the exercise simply because that could have endangered their health. People may be harmed by being carried to the surface in such circumstances. We had to ensure that the exercise was as realistic as possible but we did not intend to risk the health of volunteers. For that reason mannequins were used with the body weight of a person who might be involved in such an incident. In that way we ensured that no one was injured in the simulated exercise.

My Lords, is the Minister saying that one can carry anyone of any weight? Is a police cadet meant to carry me out of a place of danger? Surely the whole exercise was so artificial that it will not carry any weight in the long run.

My Lords, I took the trouble to ascertain whether appropriate simulation had been carried out. I assure noble Lords that the mannequins used weighed 13 stone. Some people may weigh more than that but 13 stone is rather heavy compared with the average weight of British people.

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Quirk, was up first.

My Lords, is it not the case that if last Sunday's event had been for real with a crowded station and crowded trains, the grave deficiencies in our public address system would have been laid bare with possibly disastrous consequences? Will the Government ensure that first-rate training is at last given to all those involved in providing oral information in public transport so that it is maximally intelligible and prompt?

My Lords, the noble Lord draws attention to an important point. There is no doubt at all that in circumstances of grave emergency, such as that simulated on Sunday, accurate information to anyone who might be affected would greatly aid rescue as it would calm and reassure those who were not at the absolute point of risk. That is an important point.

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats, who have not had a question yet.

My Lords, in planning for emergencies, particularly the sort of problem that the civil contingencies Bill will address, will the Government consider including the voluntary sector as an important contributor to dealing with national emergencies?

My Lords, that is a most valuable and important suggestion. It will also be recognised that the particular circumstance simulated on Sunday was a chemical attack on the Underground. As the House will readily recognise, the first requirement is to have the highest level of professionalism in the initial response. The noble Lord is quite right that volunteer organisations can play a significant part in support.

My Lords, would it not be more realistic to carry out such exercises during the working week, when the streets are full of traffic and people?

Indeed it would, my Lords. All that we would need to do to carry out that exercise in an Underground station is stop the whole of the London Tube for the period for which it went on, which would be several hours. That is not a ready proposition to put before people, even in these dire days when we all need to be on our guard. The practitioners need practice at the techniques that they need to employ. A Sunday was chosen on a line detached from the rest of the Tube system—the Waterloo and City line—to minimise the impact on the wider public while getting as close as we could to real circumstances of disaster on the Tube.