Sexual Offences Bill [HL]

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 5:06 pm on 13 May 2003.

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Photo of Baroness Noakes Baroness Noakes Conservative 5:06, 13 May 2003

I shall speak also to the other amendments in the group. Amendment No. 290 inserts "or knowingly" into Clause 54(1), so that the offence of paying for sex with a child is committed if a person either intentionally or knowingly obtains for himself the sexual services of a child. The other amendments do the same for the other offences in Clauses 55 to 59, which deal with prostitution and child pornography.

The amendment was suggested to us by the Metropolitan Police, which has provided very helpful briefings to a number of noble Lords and suggestions for several parts of the Bill, all based on its thorough professional knowledge of the subject matter. The Metropolitan Police says that it can often prove, through painstaking investigation, that a person had knowledge of prostitution and was gaining financially, but that it may be more difficult to prove intention—the state of mind of the person.

The example that the police pose is of a pimp who says that he knew that a person was working as a prostitute, but that he did not intend that to happen. Would he get away with it under the offences? They tell us that that is not fanciful, and say that pimps are likely to make such statements. For example, a man drops a woman off in a red-light district, goes home and waits for her to return with the money. He says that he knew that she was working as a prostitute and giving him money, but that she wants to do it. It was not his intention for her to do it. The Minister looks sceptical, but that is what the police have told us.

The police's concerns were in particular in relation to the prostitution offences—those in Clauses 55 to 59. I have also added "knowingly" to Clause 54, possibly unnecessarily, but for good measure in case there were people who might say that they knew that they were paying for sexual services with a child but did not intend to do so. I beg to move.