Sexual Offences Bill [HL]

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 1:56 pm on 10 April 2003.

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Photo of Baroness Blatch Baroness Blatch Shadow Deputy Leader of the House of Lords 1:56, 10 April 2003

I would certainly like to support the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun. Often, it is we in the Westminster village who are familiar with the legalese of legislation. However, having been a Member of the House since 1987, I cannot claim to be entirely familiar with the legalese that comes before us. "First cousin" is clear beyond peradventure. One would not have to look for implicit provision in other parts of the clause. But I concede that the argument has been well answered by the Minister, as does the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun.

I was also going to rise to support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Noakes. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for agreeing in characteristic style to take it away, to look at it more fully and to take into account the omission that my noble friend talked about. We look forward to whatever comes of that at the next stage.

I have taken wise counsel from my noble friend, who has a very real understanding of the Bill. We have had a fairly complicated discussion on Amendment No. 202. My understanding of that amendment differs from that of my noble friend. Rather than call that a point of issue between us, I wish to pose a question to the noble and learned Lord to clarify either my understanding or my misunderstanding about it.

As I see it, the amendment appears to strip out one of the most obvious categories of potential sex abuser—the non-blood-related uncle. Deleting subsection (3)(b) removes uncles by affinity; that is to say, those who are not related by blood but who are married to a child's blood aunt. It also removes putative uncles; that is, a boyfriend of a child's blood aunt. Of course, it does the same for aunts by affinity and putative aunts. But it is well known that uncles, in particular, can abuse the trust that being part of a child's family gives them. Some men become obsessed with children within their families. The NSPCC says that, after brothers and fathers, uncles are the most likely source of sexual abuse within the family.

I shall base my question around the following example. Am I correct in taking as an example the tragic murder of Danielle Jones, who was abused by her uncle Stuart Campbell, who was married to her father's sister? He had an obsessive sexual interest in teenage girls and became infatuated with Danielle. The infatuation led to her murder. Leaving aside the murder element, the man was guilty of taking advantage of a member of the family with whom he had a position of trust. He neither lived in the same house, nor, I believe, was he a carer, trainer, supervisor or in sole charge of the child. Therefore, on my reading, by removing paragraph (b), and by not conforming with the conditions in subsection (4), he would not be caught by these measures. If that is the case, then it would be bizarre, but I need to be told if that is the case.

If the amendment is made, it would also mean that some children within a family could be protected, whilst other siblings were not. For example, when a widow married a widower and they both brought children to the new marriage, then two of the children would be protected and the other two would not. That is also a problem. If the wife's brother took a sexual interest in any of those four children, the children of the mother would be protected by the familial abuse provisions, but the children of the new husband would not.

I am trying to elicit from the Minister whether I am right that that kind of person, that kind of relationship, which is among some of the most common abuse of people within a family, is caught by the provisions. If they are not caught, I would argue that subsection (3)(b) should stay in. If they are caught, how does that happen? I am talking about somebody who does not fulfil the terms of subsection (4)(a) and (b)—an uncle married to a blood relation of a child who does not either live in the household, or is a carer, trainer, supervisor or in sole charge of (B).