– in the House of Lords at 3:10 pm on 4 February 2003.
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
3:10,
4 February 2003
My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lords reform has been quite a long story; today's votes in both Houses are not, of course, the end of it. It is possible that today may be decisive and will determine the broad shape of the House in the future.
I will say something about today's procedure. I remind your Lordships that, when the noble Lord, Lord Renton, intervened a few days ago and suggested that 15 hours and 98 speakers might approach a reasonable sufficiency—
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
There was that sort of growl of approval. After any speeches, I shall formally move all seven Motions in turn. As I reminded the House a few days ago, a vote for one option does not pre-empt any of your Lordships from voting for any other options or indeed, should your Lordships so desire, for all of them.
Tellers will have to be appointed, and voices on both sides will be heard in the Chamber at the three-minute mark in the usual way. All of us are free to vote "Content" or "Not Content" to as many of the Motions as we choose. Your Lordships will remember that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, speaking, I think, on behalf of the Joint Committee, asked us to give our views on each of the options. Voting "Content" would mean, therefore, that one would regard that option as acceptable—not necessarily the best, but, at least, acceptable. Voting "Not Content" means that one would regard that particular option as not acceptable.
I shall vote for a 100 per cent elected down to 50 per cent elected House and against all other offers.
Moved, That this House approves Option 1 (fully appointed) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Lord Strathclyde
Conservative
My Lords, I rise to say only one or two things. As the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House correctly said, we are going to have seven very important votes. I hope that noble Lords will approach those votes with a sense that they are all significant. I can confirm from this part of the House—something that is echoed in all parts of the House—that it will be a genuinely free vote. I do not really need to say "genuinely" because, in our party, all free votes are genuinely free votes. There has been one important change since we debated the matter: the Prime Minister has said that he is not in favour of elections, and noble Lords should, therefore, be aware that, almost whatever happens, there is unlikely to be any legislation this side of the next General Election.
The noble and learned Lord said how he was going to vote. I hope that, at the end of the debate, the Joint Committee will be asked to work up at least more than one option, to give us a further choice. We have time on our side. Just as I did in 1999, I will vote against an appointed House that has not a single guarantee or safeguard attached to it. Equally, I will vote for Option 4, which preserves the independent Cross Benches but allows for election of the political House. I hope that the Joint Committee will study the practicality of elections as a whole. We can then return to consideration of those detailed options and carry our debate further.
The House has won respect for its famously open mind. I hope today that we will not close our minds finally to alternative futures and that, as the Prime Minister leaps forward so eagerly to grasp the appointed House that we denied him in 1999, some noble Lords, at least, will ask themselves the old Roman question: cui bono?
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Liberal Democrat Leader in the House of Lords
My Lords, I do not intend to make a speech beyond saying that we should vote for the future. I call on other noble Lords not to make speeches either.
Lord Bruce of Donington
Labour
My Lords, I shall give a short explanation of the vote that I propose to make, which is in favour of Option 1. My reason for so doing is that I do not believe that this House should at any point challenge the power of the House of Commons. There should be no electoral challenge to the House of Commons.
I draw the House's attention to paragraph 75 of the committee's report, which says:
"The appointed element should be nominated by a new independent statutory Appointments Commission whose principal function would be to ensure a quality of representativeness and regional balance in the reformed House".
I believe in that, which is why I propose to support Option 1.
Division number 1
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, however, I now move Motion No. 2: fully elected.
Moved, That this House approves Option 2 (fully elected) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Division number 2
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name: 80 per cent appointed/20 per cent elected.
Moved, That this House approves Option 3 (80 per cent appointed/20 per cent elected) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Division number 3
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, I beg to move the fourth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper: 80 per cent elected/20 per cent appointed.
Moved, That this House approves Option 4 (80 per cent elected/20 per cent appointed) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Division number 4
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, I beg to move the fifth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper: 60 per cent appointed/40 per cent elected.
Moved, That this House approves Option 5 (60 per cent appointed/40 per cent elected) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Division number 5
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, I beg to move the sixth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper: 60 per cent elected/40 per cent appointed.
Moved, That this House approves Option 6 (60 per cent elected/40 per cent appointed) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, whether the said Motion (Option 6) shall be agreed to?
Division number 6
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
Lord Williams of Mostyn
President of the Council, Privy Council Office, Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords
My Lords, I beg to move the final Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper: 50 per cent appointed/50 per cent elected.
Moved, That this House approves Option 7 (50 per cent appointed/50 per cent elected) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Division number 7
Private Parking: Ports and Trading Estates — House of Lords Reform
The house of Lords is the upper chamber of the Houses of Parliament. It is filled with Lords (I.E. Lords, Dukes, Baron/esses, Earls, Marquis/esses, Viscounts, Count/esses, etc.) The Lords consider proposals from the EU or from the commons. They can then reject a bill, accept it, or make amendments. If a bill is rejected, the commons can send it back to the lords for re-discussion. The Lords cannot stop a bill for longer than one parliamentary session. If a bill is accepted, it is forwarded to the Queen, who will then sign it and make it law. If a bill is amended, the amended bill is sent back to the House of Commons for discussion.
The Lords are not elected; they are appointed. Lords can take a "whip", that is to say, they can choose a party to represent. Currently, most Peers are Conservative.
The order paper is issued daily and lists the business which will be dealt with during that day's sitting of the House of Commons.
It provides MPs with details of what will be happening in the House throughout the day.
It also gives details of when and where the standing committees and select committees of the Commons will be meeting.
Written questions tabled to ministers by MPs on the previous day are listed at the back of the order paper.
The order paper forms one section of the daily vote bundle and is issued by the Vote Office
A vote where members are not obliged to support their party's position, and can vote however they choose. This is the opposite to a whipped vote. It is customary for parties to provide a free vote for legislation dealing with matters of conscience.
In a general election, each constituency chooses an MP to represent it by process of election. The party who wins the most seats in parliament is in power, with its leader becoming Prime Minister and its Ministers/Shadow Ministers making up the new Cabinet. If no party has a majority, this is known as a hung Parliament. The next general election will take place on or before 3rd June 2010.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The House of Commons is one of the houses of parliament. Here, elected MPs (elected by the "commons", i.e. the people) debate. In modern times, nearly all power resides in this house. In the commons are 650 MPs, as well as a speaker and three deputy speakers.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
