Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 6:45 pm on 3 December 2001.

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Photo of Lord Howell of Guildford Lord Howell of Guildford Shadow Minister (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs) 6:45, 3 December 2001

We come to that part of the Bill concerned with XWeapons of Mass Destruction"—nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and other hideous weapons that science is developing. Unanimity of purpose and of principle is probably greatest in relation to these provisions. They will do most to head off another horror such as September 11th, if there are further horrors and tragedies—pray Heaven that there are not. I confess, in moving the amendment and those grouped with it, to some amazement that it is not already the law of the land—or of international law—that the handling and movement of fissile materials is criminal and illegal in all senses. The provisions are clearly needed as part of the search for gaps that went on in Whitehall—that was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, as the precursor to the preparation for this Bill.

Amendment No. 132 does not appear in my name on the Marshalled List. Perhaps that is just as well—looking closely at the Bill and the amendment, my conclusion is that the wording in neither will do. The purpose behind the amendment, which my noble friends tabled, was to strengthen the provisions in Clause 44 and to bring about a situation in which the suspect, offender or person involved would have to be absolutely sure that the Xbiological agent or toxin" being handled or transferred was for,

Xprophylactic, protective or other peaceful purposes".

To achieve that, the amendment should have proposed to omit the phrase, Xhas reason to believe" but it should not have proposed to replace that with Xsuspects". The difficulty arises because of the speed with which we have had to table amendments and the double negative in the provision. If the phrase Xhas reason to believe" were left out, it would be possible to demand of the person involved that he knew that the poisonous substances really were for reputable and acceptable purposes, and not for any darker purposes. That is the purpose of Amendment No. 132. However, I make it clear that I think neither the amendment nor the Bill is right. I look forward to the Minister's comments.

Amendment No. 137 would in effect strengthen the Bill's provisions. As it is currently drafted, the Bill appears to suggest that if armed conflict is afoot—as we have seen in recent weeks, we are not even sure about how to define Xarmed conflict", let alone Xwar" in modern conditions—producing nuclear weapons can be proceeded with without fear of prosecution. That is a loose and very grim prospect. During a war or conflict, one of the many terrorist networks that we now know exist around the globe or a rogue state could be involved in such an arrangement, and people on UK soil could be involved. Our view is that it would clearly be right to exempt those working in the legitimate service of our own government—that is why we propose to insert,

Xby, or on behalf of, the Government of the United Kingdom".

However, we do not think that the exemption should go beyond that—it should be confined to the United Kingdom.

I want to discuss two further amendments in this group—my noble friend may discuss the fifth amendment in the group, on which I shall not comment. Amendment No. 141 is a technical legal amendment, which is intended to ensure that documents and information that are Xsubject to legal privilege" cannot be recovered by virtue of a search warrant that is granted under the clause. I understand—others will undoubtedly understand better—that the law is eager to protect and preserve the relationship between a solicitor and his or her client. The Bill should state that a search warrant that is granted under Clause 52 will not extend to the disclosure of information that is subject to legal privilege. Although the amendment appears in this group, it does not follow the group's main theme.

Finally, Amendment No. 142 involves the question of someone who actively connives in the commission of an offence by a company that is involved in the handling and transfer of poisonous weapons of mass destruction, nuclear materials and so on. The Bill implies that anyone who is a director—presumably executive or non-executive—could be swept up in the matter, find himself exposed to criminal charges and suffer a heavy prison sentence. The amendment would in a sense slightly weaken the Bill's proposals by urging that neglect should not be enough to criminalise a company director or other officer. I beg to move.