Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 7:12 pm on 27 November 2001.

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Photo of Lord Selsdon Lord Selsdon Conservative 7:12, 27 November 2001

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, obliquely referred to one of the origins of terrorism being the revolution in France which led to the heads of large numbers of the aristocracy being removed at that time. Today, the government adopt legislation to remove Members of your Lordships' House, often at will. However, there is no similarity between that and terrorism because legislation cannot in itself remove terrorism.

Noble Lords will know the origins of terrorism. I believe that the strict definition of the word is Xgovernment by intimidation" and that a terrorist is someone who seeks to promote his views by intimidation. I find it difficult when I look at this piece of legislation not to experience a certain anxiety. I get what the Americans call Xgoose bumps". There is something wrong with it. Yet I pay tribute to all those who worked long hours and long nights to put together what I regard as an admirable White Paper. However, as a piece of legislation it has much missing.

I turn to what I regard as the most important commodities that are available to us in this country: freedom and privacy. But both suffer if they are confronted with fear. I believe it was Thomas Carlyle who said that the first duty of man is the subduing of fear. At this time I believe that the first duty of government is the subduing of fear. We have little knowledge of the impact of 11th September, but previous events caused anxiety. The English bombing of Libya led to many people refusing to come here because they thought that Libya could bomb England. The same applied to Baghdad.

I have no legal qualifications in this area and I am not learned. However, during my working life I have been lectured to by many third, second or even first world governments with firmly held views and vociferous criticisms. They used to ask, XWhy, when you are our friends, do you harbour in your own country people who wish to overthrow us not democratically but by violence?" That has been the case for many years. Some of those people pass through Croydon. I should declare an interest as Baron Selsdon of Croydon. I should have preferred a title drawn from one of my old family relationships in Scotland but that was not in my gift.

I refer to the phrase, XHis presence in the United kingdom may be prejudicial to public order and good discipline". I understand that we have an awful lot of people whose presence in the United Kingdom could be prejudicial to public order and good discipline. I do not see how this piece of legislation as currently drafted will remove fear and take us much further forward. I recognise within it the hand of American legislation where bribery and corruption and other ingredients are included. I ask myself why it is all necessary.

Let us look at the financial world in which I have worked for years. There is plenty, probably too much, legislation which requires certain reports and returns to be made under the European convention of 1993 on money laundering and forfeiture and under recent legislation. That involves much bureaucracy and causes much concern and is an extraordinary invasion of the rights of the individual. If someone has not paid his telephone bill or filled in the appropriate forms, he is told by his bankers, who may have looked after him, his family, his ancestors and his children for years, that their hands are tied unless he fills in those forms.

Here I come to the basic principle of banking which is often forgotten; that is, the source and application of funds. I refer to the duty of care that a bank or anyone in the financial institutions has to his client. That includes confidentiality. It also includes that lovely phrase, XKnow thy customer". Before we had XBig Bang" and a widening of the financial institutions, everyone had a bank manager whom he or she had usually met. Now one picks up the telephone, dials a number and is told to press one of a series of buttons. I remind your Lordships that should they wish to speak to someone they should never press a button. Ultimately, they will get a voice. However, there is no longer a manager whose duty is to make sure that he protects the bank and his customers. Many people used to say of someone, XHe does not bank with a respectable bank and, therefore, he is not trustworthy". We need to say to those involved in the banking system, XIt is up to you now to follow that philosophy of knowing your customers" rather than try to increase the legislation in that area.

These days you can move money around in a way you never could before. You can swap things. You do not actually have to have cash passing through accounts. You can barter. But, at the end of the day, is terrorism about money? What was the cost of taking a small penknife on a plane? What is the impact of that and how much funding is needed in this country? Anyone can be a terrorist and create fear.

Here I move on to another area. What is the fear? It is not necessarily the fear of being blown up. It begins with anxiety. Anxiety then becomes fear and fear becomes terror and terror becomes panic. Fear is often fear of the unknown. Here I come to the horrendous schedule of viruses and bacteria that have scared the living daylights out of so many people. However, I could not even see smallpox among them.

I hope that I may make a suggestion to the Government. Most of those bacteria can be treated in one form or another, although viruses are not so easily treated. I hope that the Government will do me the favour of writing me a long letter which I could circulate widely and which perhaps could even be incorporated in an announcement in the newspapers. The letter should list the diseases in the schedule, the cures, the people who have them and should tell people not to worry so much. People are worried and I believe that the young are more worried than we are. Of course, taking into account their average age, I assume that at one time or another noble Lords have all been vaccinated against smallpox. Certainly we have a long life expectancy and are probably immune to many of the diseases. But it is disease that causes fear.

I move on to another concern which many of us cannot quite make out at the moment. I refer to nuclear and other types of attack that are mentioned. What is the fear and how can the Government alleviate it? The Government cannot remove fear by this Bill, but they can remove it by communication. I am sorry that no right reverend Prelate is with us at present because one debate in this House moved me greatly. It was initiated by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and was, in effect, on the role of religion in the creation of war or the creation of peace.

As your Lordships know well, half the world is made up of people of the book: those of Jewish faith, who are the oldest; those of Christian faith; and those of Muslim faith. All have a community of interests and all recognise each other. The belief which is at large at present that it is all right to go out and kill someone, after which one will go to heaven, is not accurate. I suggest that the leaders of those three faiths take a leaf out of the book of His Royal Highness Prince Charles and start to provide a little more explanation. In my view, if a Muslim were to study the Koran correctly, he would see that what is being proposed at present is against the Koran. Therefore, I believe that some of the problems can be cured by providing information.

I do not understand many of the other elements of the Bill. They are complicated and cause me considerable anxiety. In the debates that are to follow in Committee, I hope that the Government will end up with something that is workable. I wish them well and commend them on their action. However, at present it may not be necessary to move quite so quickly but merely to indicate to people the direction in which we are moving.