My Lords, I accept that as an accurate reflection of the nature of the meeting. I merely report that it came as a surprise that the issues were being advanced on the basis of a debate in your Lordships' House. It was thought that a fruitful dialogue had emerged that would lead to an improvement in the situation as a result of the noble Lord's meeting with my right honourable friend the Minister.

Let us pass that matter. I can reassure the noble Lord that he is right when he says that the board of visitors was acting within its rights to seek to carry out a survey. It was suggested in a number of contributions that the survey was greatly respected and was the fruit of a significant piece of work on the part of the board of visitors. But it is the case that there were dissenting voices about the report among the board of visitors. It is not the case, as may have been portrayed earlier, that there was a clear position of the board of visitors on what was appropriate at Haslar and that conflicts came with the governor and senior staff. That is not the case. There was also dissension and difficulties within the board. We need to put these matters in context when we look at how some of the problems emerged.

I hasten also to assure the noble Lord--he was probably able to gauge this from his meeting with the Minister--that the Minister was fully apprised of all the facts before he reached his decision with regard to the non-reappointment of the three members of the board of visitors. Part of the difficulty we are all facing is that, because relatively small numbers of people are coming forward, some members of boards serve for long periods. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, himself identified that problem. He said that he served on a board of visitors for a very considerable period. I am not gainsaying the advantage of long experience, but it is probably advantageous if we are able to bring on new people and get fresh perspectives on boards of visitors.

Part of the problem may have occurred in relation to the Haslar Board of Visitors because a substantial number of them had been there for a very considerable period. The leading personalities had certainly had a very long association indeed. That gives them the enormous benefit of experience. But there is also the danger that they stray from their particular responsibilities, which were accurately defined in terms of eyes, ears and conscience. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, expressed graphically the role of the board of visitors. Someone who had played a senior role as chairman or vice-chairman of the board of visitors over a long period and had perhaps seen several governors come and go might be in danger of thinking that he or she had rather greater executive authority in relation to the institution than is identified in terms of the proper role of the board of visitors as set out by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia.