My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for initiating the debate. Once again, a small number of speakers in your Lordships' House bring an astonishing breadth of first-hand experience to the subject in hand.

This is a classic case of a bad relationship developing between two sets of individuals; in this case, the board of visitors at Haslar and the then governor. Undoubtedly, there was bad blood. There is a clear record of bullying of the visitors and obstruction of their inquiries, particularly when they instituted their inquiry on racism at the prison--so the relationship got off to a bad start.

There are always two sides to an argument and it is fair to assume that the prison management was rubbed up the wrong way by the board of visitors, who were, I understand, not always in agreement among themselves. Nevertheless, it must be recognised that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said, the board of visitors produced a report on racism which received very favourable comments from the Prison Reform Trust and, significantly, the Prisons Ombudsman and Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons.

The non-reappointment of three members of the board has shown up some radical weaknesses in the appointments structure for boards of visitors. That theme has run through the debate in the House today. The Minister was of course within his rights using the triennial review procedure where he was able not to reappoint the three members of the board without giving reasons.

Whether or not that was intended, it certainly gave the impression to interested outsiders that it had the effect of circumventing the provision of Rules 75(3) and (4) of the Prison Rules 1999 and certainly was not in accord with the fairness rules of the code of conduct for boards of visitors, which states that members must:

"be told in writing of the complaint against them in advance of any interview; be provided with copies of any written evidence (including witness statements) forming the basis for the complaints; be given the opportunity to state their case and challenge any evidence before any decision is made".

The Minister's actions were certainly capable of the interpretation that this device had been used to get rid of troublemakers or those trying to rock the boat. It also must be said that, whatever the merits of the case, the odds are stacked against the individual members of a board of visitors when he or she is in conflict with the establishment. For instance, an aggrieved member would be wary of embarking on an application for judicial review because he would face an award against him of all the costs if the Minister were found to have been within his rights.

The Minister is to be commended on his initiative in appointing my right honourable friend Sir Peter Lloyd to chair a committee composed of well qualified experts to advise on the appointments of boards of visitors. The committee has yet to report, but I hope that it will recommend some kind of independent body to manage appointments of boards of visitors.

I am not referring to the case under debate here but to the role in general played by the boards of visitors secretariat. That body has a valuable role to play in looking after the individual boards of visitors and I surmise that the relationship between individual boards of visitors and the secretariat is one of trust and mutual confidence. It is therefore not right that the secretariat also has a disciplinary role. The combination of the roles may be appropriate in the case of a family, but in the public service it can be far more problematic.

If, as we hope, the Lloyd committee recommends some kind of independent body, that body will indeed have powers of appointment and dismissal. It should be taken out of the Prison Service administration and placed in the hands of a body which is truly independent, such as the Prisons Ombudsman's office.

Some of the decisions as to whether or not to reappoint or to dismiss will be relatively straightforward, such as in cases of misconduct. There will however be cases where it is for any reason inappropriate to give reasons for non-appointment. For instance, a member of the board of visitors may have a bad manner or, for instance, not be sufficiently unbiased, or possibly just simply stale and increasingly ineffective. No member should ever be able to gain the impression that he was part of the furnishings, provided only that he keeps out of trouble. Any such authority must have the powers to remove or not to reappoint members for sustained inadequate performance; otherwise it is a recipe for mediocrity and inefficiency. I hope that Sir Peter Lloyd's committee will also address the question of an appeals procedure and possibly a maximum length of service.

I believe that prison visiting has a tradition which goes back to the 2nd century AD. It certainly engaged the attention of Elizabeth Fry and William Allen in the 18th and 19th centuries. Let us not forget that here we are dealing with a particularly British institution which has counterparts in very few other countries; namely, an individual who is engaged in unpaid public service. In particular, I associate with that tradition the name of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about whom the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, spoke most eloquently .

I speak with no experience of boards of visitors, but I am well aware that at least two noble Lords who have spoken have acted in that capacity. I am sure that what is required of a good member of a board of visitors is experience, judgment, commitment, integrity and compassion, to name but a few of the qualities which he or she will need to bring to bear. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said that the board of visitors at Haslar was well under establishment. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has provided graphic details of the work which the visitors will need to address in that prison in future.

The board of visitors is an absolutely crucial part of the penal system in England and Wales. Whatever the difficulties, it has performed a valuable service at Haslar in particular in the race review. A few weeks ago I took part in the debate on the problems at Blantyre House in Kent. There the reports of the board of visitors were particularly significant in the context of the removal of the governor and the raid on that prison by the Prison Service which aroused such disquiet in your Lordships' House. I recall that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, spoke to that point as a former member of a board of visitors.

The treatment of boards of visitors as regards their period of service must be fair, and be seen to be fair and (to use a current, overworked expression) transparent. I am confident that Sir Peter Lloyd and his committee will address these issues. I await his report with interest and am sure that the Minister will take careful note of it.