My Lords, it is a pleasure to participate in this debate, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who is such a tireless campaigner for human rights. I have met members of human rights organisations in many parts of the world. If I mention the House of Lords, they say, "Do you know Lord Avebury?". "Yes," I answer, "I am proud to say that I do". This debate is one in a long line that he has initiated on important issues.

The boards of visitors system in England and Wales is one of which, overall, we can be very proud. I have been involved with boards of visitors for many years and have contributed to training events and meetings. I have always come away thinking that it is a great strength that people of such high calibre choose to become involved with prisons. They carry out work that most of their neighbours--the other people in their street--would regard as abnormal, or even bizarre. The work that they do is very practical and has implications for the everyday life and the everyday happiness or misery of prisoners. It is public service at its most unglamorous and most unrecognised. This debate provides an opportunity for this House to say that.

I am sure that noble Lords would agree that there must be independent, external oversight of prisons. Even in the best prison system in the world, things go wrong. Staff are tempted to cut corners and abuse creeps in. There must be community involvement in prisons. There is an important role for those who bring to the operation of a prison--a closed institution--the eyes and the sensibility of the ordinary citizen. They can bring in the values of the outside world and say, "This is how we expect our fellow citizens to be treated". The boards of visitors system combines both those elements and, as such, it is a model for the rest of the world.

The new government in the Republic of Georgia have just passed a law to institute a boards of visitors system which is closely modelled on our own. People from Georgia visited us here last week to learn from us and to hear from our boards of visitors about what they do.

Similarly, following a crisis in the prisons there, a committee was set up in France. The members of that committee came to London to look at our system of control and oversight. They met people from boards of visitors and were deeply impressed by their level of commitment and the fact that people from many walks of life chose to do the task for no money. When they went home, they recommended a new model for France based very much on what they had learnt about our system. Therefore, the importance of what we do extends beyond this country. It is worth taking seriously when it goes right and when it goes wrong.

One element of our boards of visitors system interests people from abroad greatly. It is the question of independence. Those from abroad ask how boards of visitors can be independent when the Minister responsible for prisons appoints them but can also remove them. The answer is that, in spite of the appointments system, they are independent because everyone in the system respects their independence. No one would ever try to get rid of them because of what they say or because of the points that they raise with the Home Secretary or with the governor of their prison, provided that they do so in a responsible manner.

That principle is very important. From what I have read and from what I have heard this evening, I fear that it may have been breached in the case of the board at Haslar. I do not want to comment at length on the events; previous speakers have done so. However, whatever the specific details, I want to ask the Minister whether he agrees that proper procedures must be put in place to deal with difficulties such as those. Does he agree that it is not appropriate to deal with them while pretending to do something else?

I should also like to ask the Minister whether the Home Office has reflected recently on the structure within which boards of visitors operate and on the role of the boards of visitors secretariat in the Home Office.

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned the review under Sir Peter Lloyd. I hope that it will look again at a recommendation frequently made: that the regulation of boards of visitors should be removed from the Home Office and vested in an independent body under a president who would have powers to deal with problems highlighted here in a way which leads to a satisfactory resolution but which also safeguards that precious independence that is such a great strength. I should be grateful to know the view of the Minister if such a suggestion were made by the Lloyd review.

Finally, I should like to touch on the question that my noble friend Lord Dholakia raised about those incarcerated in Haslar Prison, who are not convicted criminals but immigration detainees, asylum seekers, people who have fled here for a multitude of reasons. I understand--I should be grateful if the Minister would confirm this--that immigration detainees held in such a detention centre are not subject to provisions of the Prison Service such as mandatory drug testing. I understand that immigration detainees held in wings of normal prisons are subject to mandatory drug testing. Can the Minister confirm this and, if it is the case, tell the House why this is done and under what powers?