Football (Disorder) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 8:20 pm on 25 July 2000.

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Photo of Lord Phillips of Sudbury Lord Phillips of Sudbury Liberal Democrat 8:20, 25 July 2000

My Lords, this is a large group of amendments and perhaps at this time of night on the second day of Joycean continuous experience it is a mercy. However it is difficult to unravel this set of amendments with clarity and brevity, both of which are deeply desired at this time of night, but I shall do my best. Before the break, the Minister referred to the solace that we should take from the sunset clause and I understand what he means. However, a sunset clause in a bad Bill is still bad news and enough has been said for the purpose of the amendments to be well understood.

There are new and potentially dangerous powers in the banning order structure under the Bill. New Sections 14B and 21A are totally interlinked. After all, new Section 21A, relating to a "sus" offence, harks back to the conditions of new Section 14B(2) and we heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, say last night that suspicion is not on grounds of actual or imminent breach of the peace or suspected illegality but in respect of future conduct. What is more, and worse, it is based on long past conduct; up to 10 years. That is in dramatic contrast with the Crime and Disorder Bill and the anti-social behaviour orders on which the Minister has relied throughout.

Furthermore, a banning order under new Section 14B need not necessarily be related to football, unlike the provisions of new Section 14A and the existing legislation. Nor need it be in relation to a conviction, a point emphasised from many quarters. According to what tests are the Government or the police able to apply for a banning order? Is it a criminal test? No, we know that it is a civil test although it has criminal penalties and it is certainly in a criminal context. Does it involve mens rea or intent? No, it does not. Will there be any defence of self defence, provocation or other reasonable conduct, as is present in the Public Order Act? No, there will not.

The Government tell us not to worry too much because new Section 14B(4)(b) saves the day. Under that provision the justice of the peace must believe that there are "reasonable grounds" before a banning order is made. We are not happy with that.

What about the conditions for the banning order? Must there be violence? Yes, but of a very particular and limited kind. It can even be violence against property. It could be graffiti or smashing a couple of glasses in a pub intentionally when drunk.

What about disorder? It is a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is not here because his somewhat cavalier approach to all this would have been a good deal less so had he pondered on the definitions of "violence" and "disorder". Let us not forget that "disorder" is stirring up hatred against a group of persons. We have no problem with that but the use of abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, embraces a multitude of sins and minor sins. Thinking back to my student days I remember that the boat club of Trinity Hall was perpetually abusive and insulting during its more elaborate celebrations, as were sporting organisations of all kinds.

Although the Minister has consistently said that that is not the kind of behaviour on which people will base applications for banning orders, I beg to differ. There is not much difference between the high spirits of a sporting institution of a university and the high spirits of students when demonstrating whether at a university or outside or whether in respect of genetic engineering problems, animal problems or visits of undesirable potentates as with the President of China. Such matters give rise to occasions when precisely abusive and insulting behaviour is a concern. We do not like a Bill which ultimately relies for its scope and implementation on the perpetual good sense of police and magistrates. That is not good legislation.

What about the violence? Must it be direct, actual or serious? No, it must be merely enough to contribute to "it" or to disorder. What is meant by "contribution to"? The Minister gave--if I may say without being offensive--a banal explanation to my noble friend Lord Russell. It will of course include cheering on when someone is, for example, destroying crops in a field. If you are standing on the side lines cheering on, that will be a contribution to disorder and to violence in property terms.

It need not be violence or disorder such that banning will prevent its repetition. It has not yet been pointed out that the magistrates need be satisfied only that the banning order will "help" prevent violence or disorder. "Help" is a little word and it can mean a little or a lot. It does not say "help significantly", it merely says "help". That is the weakest link in a very weak chain of protection for those against whom banning orders are sought. I regret not having woken up to the importance of that small word hitherto because no one has tabled a related amendment.

This group of amendments provides two broad approaches. We like both and believe that both would improve the Bill but we must have one or the other. The first provides that a banning order cannot be based on conduct which is not the subject of a criminal conviction. Although the Minister may say that that shoots a torpedo under the waterline of the Bill we would not agree. New Section 14A allows for a banning order on the back of a criminal conviction which is football related. We believe that it is perfectly satisfactory for new Section 14B to allow a banning order based on a conviction which is not for football; it provides the kind of safeguards for which everyone has been asking.

The other approach would be to work with a scalpel, so to speak, on the provisions of the Bill and seek to tighten up the requirements. That is where Amendments Nos. 13, 14 and 15 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and myself, where Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 in the names of my noble friend Lord McNally and myself, and where Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, all come in.

I shall sit down in a moment but I believe that it would help the House if I were to read out what is perhaps the key section in the Bill--new Section 14B(2)--with the amendments included in this group written into it. It would then read as follows:

"That condition"-- that is, the condition on the basis of which a banning application can be granted--

"is that the respondent has at any time caused or significantly contributed with intent to any serious violence or disorder in the United Kingdom or elsewhere".

I believe that the amendments--one a deletion and three single word insertions--do not disable the Bill at all. Rather, we would say that they give the Bill a force, a balance and--to use the Minister's favourite word--a proportionality that help the credibility and justice of the measure. When we become excited about the minutiae of the wording, it is often forgotten that, without a just Bill, one has a bad Bill. That may not become apparent very quickly, but in our history there are too many examples of Bills which are full of good intentions but ultimately are bad and counter-productive. Like the Minister, we want a Bill that will work.

I hope that my remarks have not been either too diffuse or too long. I shall now sit down and leave others to add to the group. I beg to move.