Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 7:15 pm on 22 May 2000.

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Photo of Baroness Hollis of Heigham Baroness Hollis of Heigham Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Social Security 7:15, 22 May 2000

I do not accept that for one moment. One of the deep divisions between myself and the noble Earl, Lord Russell--I hope I am not doing his position an injustice--is that he believes that someone has a birthright to benefit; an entitlement to benefit that no one has a right to sanction. We do not believe that. Benefit is the result of a decision by taxpayers--all of us--to support people who cannot for good reason support themselves. Where people can support themselves, they should; and where those people fail to abide by other conditions of their benefit entitlement--for example, by turning up for interviews on time and so on--that, too, should attract sanctions.

I do not always agree with the Conservative Benches, obviously, but here there is a profound difference between myself as a representative of the Government and the noble Lord. We believe that if society offers people benefits because they are not in a position to support themselves, society has a right to expect appropriate behaviour from them. I agree with the noble Lord that there can be arguments about what is "appropriate"--I accept that--but that we have the right to impose such conditions and exact sanctions if those conditions are broken seems to be not in dispute. I should be surprised if the Committee felt that benefit was an entitlement come what may in our society.

There is a different kind of conditionality associated with a different kind of good citizenship--the noble Earl, Lord Russell, has pressed us today and on Second Reading about departing outside the realm of benefit--which concerns the preparation for parenting, the Sure Start maternity grant. Payments are to be made on the birth of a child to those in receipt of means-tested benefits and tax credits in exchange for confirmation that they have received appropriate advice from health professionals on maternal health and the health and welfare of the new-born. Previously, all new mothers had to do was to provide evidence of pregnancy; now, if they do not seek and receive that advice, no payment is made. The benefit payment of the Sure Start maternity grant is made conditional on mothers seeking appropriate healthcare, something outside the benefit field.

The completion of community sentences is manifestly a question of good citizenship and, like work and preparation for parenthood, it is beneficial to the individuals themselves. These are criminal sentences and, as noble Lords have described, by virtue of that fact they contain an element of punishment and of reparation. We want compliance so that offenders' debts to society are repaid. But we also want compliance, as my noble friend Lady Massey said, because there is a rehabilitative aspect to community sentences. Completion is, or should be, beneficial to the offender. There may be no obvious direct link between the breach of a community sentence and the need for benefit, as there is between the requirement to seek work and benefit receipt, but those links are partly in the eyes of those speaking today.

We regard looking for work and complying with community sentences as important obligations to society which involve people doing their part to help themselves. As my noble friend Lady Massey said, that may be in terms of work skills, of basic literacy, of the discipline of coming in on time and behaving appropriately. All those matters may be part of a community sentence. It is appropriate behaviour which we hope will result in offenders not continuing to offend. Compliance with community sentences is closely linked to playing a full part in society through work. We do not believe that these issues are unrelated.

This measure is limited in its extent. In no way does it confer powers to extend conditionality beyond breaches of community sentences. Again, I was pressed on this by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I would not on principle rule out further extensions, but it would be for Parliament to debate whether particular behaviour is sufficiently undesirable and to be so strongly discouraged that it merits the withdrawal of state support via the benefit system.

This measure sits squarely with the direction for the reform of welfare that we should be pursuing. We do not want to continue sending mixed messages about what is and what is not acceptable behaviour by paying money from the public purse to those who have, despite repeated chances, shown themselves not willing to abide by the rules that society has set down. Those originally sentenced to a community sentence rather than a prison sentence who then go on to break it can--I speak now wearing my hat as someone who has served on a city council and represented a rather poor ward for 25 years--make life on our poorer estates an absolute misery for residents. When I have been canvassing over the years those residents have put to me that they are utterly baffled why they as taxpayers are expected to support them with benefit while in the meantime they continue to engage in bullying behaviour, hooligan behaviour and vandalising behaviour. They do not understand why they, as law-abiding residents, should continue not only to accept that behaviour but financially support it by paying benefit while the offenders themselves fail to observe their community sentence.