Utilities Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 6:15 pm on 4 May 2000.

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Photo of Lord McIntosh of Haringey Lord McIntosh of Haringey Deputy Chief Whip (House of Lords), HM Household, Captain of the Queen's Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard (HM Household) (Deputy Chief Whip, House of Lords) 6:15, 4 May 2000

My Lords, I shall certainly try to do that.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised the issue of wind farms near national parks. That is an example of the way in which renewable energy is not universally approved of by everybody, as the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said. There is an element of not wanting the hum or the sight of wind farms too close. That does not apply just if one lives near national parks, but wherever one lives in the countryside.

The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, made a specific point about the effect of regulation on the offshore industry. For the purpose of the principal objective of the authority, which is to protect the interests of consumers, the word "consumers" is defined to include future consumers; in other words, our children and grandchildren, who, in due course, will have their own electricity bills. So would it be consistent with the objective to impose measures that, even if they were attractive in the short term, would reduce the supply of affordable gas in the longer term? If the offshore industry believes that that would be the effect of any particular proposal, we would listen to it. We shall be glad to receive any correspondence or hold any meetings that would be appropriate for that purpose.

I now move on to the issue of the consumer council. Perhaps I should set out the role of that council in dealing with individual consumer complaints. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, appears to believe that it would be appropriate for the council to have an arbitration system. The present arrangements for the consumer council are confusing and frustrating. They are different for electricity and gas, as those concerned with consumer interests know. The joint council will have a duty to investigate complaints and the right to require--not request--information from the companies relevant to a complaint, so that it can assemble the whole picture. It will try to resolve the complaint satisfactorily in the light of its investigations, and it will seek, by agreement, to resolve complaints as far as possible by mediating between the consumers and the utilities. It will also inform the regulator if complaints raise enforcement or regulatory policy issues.

I believe we are providing the classic consumer protection service: expert assistance, backed by information gathering powers so that the complaint can be resolved satisfactorily. That is complemented by the publication powers that are not exactly those of the authority, which go wider, but the council will be able to publish anything that it believes will promote the interests of consumers without the consent of those to whom the information relates, unless the publication will have serious and prejudicial effects on those persons. The council may publish information, even commercially confidential information, which has adverse effects as long as they fall short of serious and prejudicial effects. Serious and prejudicial effects are not an exemption from publication by the authority because the authority is there to come down like a ton of bricks on people who behave badly. That is not exactly the role of the consumer council.

In relation to most consumer protection organisations, the harm threshold is a high one. However, I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, says that there is a conflict in the advice he has been given by the Consumers' Association and the CBI. I acknowledge that we fall in between the two, and probably cannot satisfy either of them.

I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that what I have said includes the right to gather information, the right to conduct research as well as publication itself. If direct access to information is refused by the utilities, there is the possibility of a reference to the authority--the licensing authority--which will have sanctions that it can apply in appropriate cases.

Perhaps I should say more about the role of the information commissioner, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and by the noble Lord, Lord Currie. We accept that there may be a role for the information commissioner, or perhaps some other arbitrator, in adjudicating disputes about the council's access to information. That may be in cases where the licensee or the authority considers that it has a right to reject a request for information under the regulations setting out the exceptions to the council's right to information. The regulations aim to provide an objective test.

Currently, the Bill provides that the authority will decide those matters, but we see a case to retain some flexibility as to who may be the best person to adjudicate so we intend to bring forward an amendment in Committee to allow for the appointment of an adjudicator by regulation.

The issue of reasonable consumer interests, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, is a difficult one that I do not have time to deal with now. If it comes up in Committee, we can discuss the matter then. The noble Lord has received representations. Ann Robinson, the chairman designate of the new consumer council, is consulting on a five-office regional structure. Perhaps we can re-address this problem when her consultation is complete.

Perhaps I should say a word about fuel poverty. In general I am grateful for the support expressed for the fuel poverty provisions, but I must make it clear that fuel poverty is part of a wider problem of social exclusion. The ministerial group on fuel poverty goes across a number of departments and affects many aspects of government, of industry and of regulation. Because we have a more competitive energy industry in this country, it is not appropriate for us to adopt the French experience of a social price, to which the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, referred.

I was particularly interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said about prepayment meter prices. Again, that is a matter that can usefully be discussed between now and Committee stage.

I have trespassed on the kindness of the House for too long. It is clear that we believe that this is a Bill that, effectively, promotes the five objectives that I set out in introducing it. It would be inappropriate for me to repeat those objectives. I believe that the Bill will put gas and electricity regulation on a secure footing for the next decade. It is capable of adapting to changes in markets and capable, at all times, of protecting consumers. I commend the Bill to the House.

On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.