Clause 1 — Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union

– in the House of Commons at 12:15 pm on 8 November 2013.

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Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East 12:15, 8 November 2013

I beg to move amendment 68, page 1, line 3, at end insert—

‘(1A) Before the appointment of the day on which the referendum is to be held, the Secretary of State shall consult the bodies listed in the Schedule (Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union) on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union and shall lay before Parliament a report of the consultation.’.

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 76, page 1, line 4, leave out subsection 2.

Amendment 21, page 1, line 4, leave out from ‘held’ to end of line 6 and insert ‘on 7 May 2015’.

Amendment 3, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘before 31 December 2017’ and insert ‘on 23 October 2014’.

Amendment 25, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘31 December 2017’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 22, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 23, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 24, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 26, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 27, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2019’.

Amendment 77, page 1, line 4, after ‘2017’, insert ‘and not between 31 July and 1 December 2017’.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 58, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The Secretary of State shall establish a European Union Referendum Commission to consider the date or dates on which the referendum is to be held.

(3A) The Commission shall report to the Secretary of State within 12 months of its establishment.

(3B) The Secretary of State shall by order provide for the date or dates to be implemented as recommended by the Commission.’.

Amendment 59, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3A) The Commission shall consult with and seek to secure agreement from the devolved administrations on the date or dates to be appointed for the referendum.’.

Amendment 62, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The date shall be appointed in accordance with the conclusions of the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union, as established under Schedule (Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union).’.

Amendment 28, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘7 May 2015’.

Amendment 31, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 29, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 30, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 32, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2017’.

Amendment 33, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 12, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) Before appointing the day on which the referendum is to be held under subsection (3) above, the Secretary of State shall consult leaders of the principal faiths represented in the United Kingdom so as to identify days which it would be inappropriate for him to appoint for holding the referendum, and he shall pay due regard to the outcome of those consultations in appointing the day.’.

Amendment 13, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(7) The day on which the referendum is to be held shall not be the same day as—

(a) a general election for the United Kingdom Parliament;

(b) elections to the European Parliament;

(c) a Scottish parliamentary general election;

(d) a Welsh Assembly general election;

(e) a general election for members of the Northern Ireland Assembly;

(f) any local government election;

(g) a mayoral election in London; and the terms above shall be defined as in section 4 of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011.’.

Amendment 70, page 1, line 6, at end insert ‘, subject to subsection (3A) below.

‘(3A) The Secretary of State may not appoint a day on which the referendum is to be held until he has published a detailed analysis of the consequences of the United Kingdom—

(a) remaining, or

(b) not remaining a member of the European Union, including—

(i) the economic and social consequences of withdrawal from the European Union for the people of the United Kingdom,

(ii) the consequences for the United Kingdom’s overseas territories,

(iii) the consequences for prevention of crime and terrorism in the United Kingdom,

(iv) the consequences for climate change and the environment of the United Kingdom, and

(v) the consequences for the effectiveness of the foreign policy of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 78, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) The date appointed under subsection 1(3) must not be less than 28 weeks in advance of the proposed polling day.’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held on Thursday.’.

Amendment 10, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over two days on a Saturday and Sunday.’.

Amendment 11, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over three days on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday.’.

New schedule 1—‘Speaker’s Committee for the referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

( ) There is to be a committee known as the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union (“the Committee”) to consider the day to be appointed for the referendum.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall consist of the Speaker of the House of Commons, who shall be the chair of the Committee, and the following other members, namely—

(a) the Member of the House of Commons who is for the time being the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons;

(b) the Lord President of the Council;

(c) a Member of the House of Commons who is a Minister of the Crown with responsibilities in relation to foreign affairs; and

(d) five Members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown.

( ) The member of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(c) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Prime Minister.

( ) The members of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(d) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Speaker of the House of Commons.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall make a report to the House of Commons on the exercise by the Committee of their functions.’.

New schedule 2—“Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

(a) the Confederation for British Industry,

(b) the National Farmers Union,

(c) the Trades Union Congress,

(d) the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux,

(e) the Association of Chief Police Officers,

(f) Universities UK,

(g) the National Council of Voluntary Organisations,

(h) Friends of the Earth,

(i) the Local Government Association, and

(j) other organisations as the Secretary of State shall see fit.’.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

It is a pleasure to speak in the Chamber for the first time under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a delight.

I shall speak to amendments 68 and 70, in my name, as well as new schedule 2, which is also in the name of my right hon. Friend Mr Hain. The reason why this group of amendments is so important is that the discussions between the Bill’s promoter, James Wharton, and the Government have been in many ways one-sided. It has been an internal discussion within the Conservative party. It is time that that discussion is broadened out to include all the interest groups and all the people of this country who would be affected by the Bill and who would be affected—in my view, very badly indeed—if Britain chose to withdraw from the European Union.

Photo of Edward Leigh Edward Leigh Chair, Public Accounts Commission, Chair, Public Accounts Commission

Does the Labour party accept the principle that there should be a referendum at all?

Hon. Members:

Answer!

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

The answer remains the same as on Second Reading: we do not believe that now is the right time to focus on this kind of agenda. The problem is that the hon. Gentleman is in search of a treaty but with no idea about the reform. We in the Opposition know what reforms we want in the European Union, but we have not had support from the Conservatives and the other Government Members. That is the difference between our two positions.

It is interesting to notice that when the House has to rely on the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), who once toured the country in a truck proclaiming “24 hours to save the pound,” as any kind of moderating influence on the Conservative party on Europe, it shows what a path of self-destruction that party has embarked upon on Europe.

Amendments 68 and 70 would ensure that there was proper consultation with the CBI, the TUC, the National Farmers Union and many other interest groups across our country that would be seriously affected if there were a vote to withdraw.

Photo of Ian Murray Ian Murray Shadow Minister (Business, Innovation and Skills)

This is the crux of a very important debate not just about the Bill, but in general about membership of the European Union. Does my hon. Friend think the Government will object to the amendment on the basis that they do not want to hear the answers from those august organisations because they disagree with the Government’s position?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

My hon. Friend points to the inconvenient truth for the Government and for the promoter of the Bill that we have already had some of the answers this week, with the CBI setting out that the benefit of being part of the European Union means that every household is £3,000 a year better off and every individual in this country is at least £1,200 a year better off. What is clear from the Bill is that neither its promoter nor the Government have any idea about the consequences of a yes vote, because they cannot say on what terms they wish the UK to remain part of the EU, and even more damagingly, they cannot set out the consequences or implications of a no vote.

Photo of Seema Malhotra Seema Malhotra Opposition Whip (Commons)

Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent London Chamber of Commerce report “Help or hindrance? The value of EU membership to UK business”, which states that the majority of its members believe that exiting the EU would negatively impact on their business and the UK’s economy, and that this supports the view expressed by the CBI?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. She will know as well as business, the trade unions and many other organisations in this country that as part of the European Union, we are party to 36 free trade agreements with more than 50 other partners across the world. She will also know, as the CBI knows, that we have the prospect of concluding negotiations with Japan, the United States and Canada that will increase the market for our goods in those countries to a potential £47 trillion a year. These are all goals that would be lost if we chose to leave the European Union.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Labour, Ilford South

My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that a free trade agreement has recently been agreed with Canada. Another was agreed about 18 months ago with South Korea. Both of those are clearly of great benefit to British companies. The South Korean one has led to a massive increase in UK exports to South Korea. Does he agree that by leaving the EU we would put in jeopardy not only the free trade agreement with the US, but the prospect of Britain benefiting from the markets made accessible by EU free trade arrangements with other parts of the world?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

My hon. Friend is right. The prospect of having to renegotiate 130 separate free trade agreements with partners across the globe is a truly desperate and scary one for business and exporters in this country. The reason that we need amendments 68 and 70 and new schedule 2 is to make sure that the Government address systematically the crucial points that the CBI made in its study this week.

What are the implications of a no vote? What are the implications of leaving? The CBI said this week that going it alone as a sole country within the World Trade Organisation, without the collective strength that negotiating power within the EU gives us, would see us lose influence and trade. The CBI said that the Norway option of leaving the European Union but remaining in the European economic area—although, as we know, Norway is a net contributor to the EU budget—was a weaker option, and that the Swiss option of pick-and-choose bilateral agreements was also a weaker option for the United Kingdom. Moreover, it said that the Turkish option of simply having a customs union with the European Union was the worst of all the halfway alternatives.

Photo of Charles Walker Charles Walker Chair, Procedure Committee, Chair, Procedure Committee

The hon. Gentleman is quoting the CBI. Is this the same CBI that said that the UK would face economic ruination if it did not join the euro?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East 1:15, 8 November 2013

I am somewhat perplexed. The Conservative party has for decades, if not centuries, marketed itself as the party of business, but we now find Conservative Members in complete opposition to what the CBI is saying is in the best economic interests of this country. I think that most people will find that staggering.

Photo of Bernard Jenkin Bernard Jenkin Chair, Public Administration Committee, Chair, Public Administration Committee

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am reading the amendment very carefully. It talks about the need to consult before the referendum

“on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union”, but is that a pretext for us now to have a debate about the merits or otherwise of remaining in the European Union, or should we stick to the amendment?

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

The hon. Gentleman is correct to suggest that it is not a pretext. I am listening very carefully to Mr Bain, and if he strays into the area that the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might, then he will not be allowed to stray further.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

It is very good to make my first intervention under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will comply with your very helpful guidance.

I suggest that my hon. Friend’s amendment and the other amendments to do with the timing of a vote are a distraction, because the timing is about what is politically more advantageous. The point is that the National Farmers Union and the Food and Drink Federation, which represents the biggest manufacturing sector in this country, have echoed the CBI’s words. For many people, it is not about timing—it is about getting out of the EU.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

My hon. Friend is entirely right. As a specialist in the common agricultural policy and the needs of our rural economy, he knows that it is incumbent on the Government to spell out the consequences of leaving the European Union—what a yes vote in the referendum would mean and what a no vote would mean.

It is intriguing that the CBI, having requested more information and explored the potential consequences of a vote to leave the European Union, concluded:

“While the UK could certainly survive outside the EU, none of the alternatives suggested offers a clear path to an improved balance of advantages and disadvantages or greater influence.”

Photo of Bernard Jenkin Bernard Jenkin Chair, Public Administration Committee, Chair, Public Administration Committee

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is quite clear that the hon. Gentleman is using this debate as a vehicle to make the CBI’s case in favour of membership of the European Union. That is not the subject of the amendment, which he should be sticking to.

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point. I am certain that Mr Bain will not use the next few minutes to do what the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might. I am sure that he will stick very carefully to discussing those who will be consulted within the strict terms of his amendment and no further.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Through these amendments, I seek to give Parliament and, indeed, many interest groups in wider society the degree of consultation that was given in the 1975 referendum.

Photo of Ian Murray Ian Murray Shadow Minister (Business, Innovation and Skills)

The CBI has consulted its members and said that eight out of 10 of them, including 77% of small and medium-sized enterprises, say that we should remain within the European Union. That is why it is important that this amendment is accepted, so that the number of bodies that are consulted on this very important constitutional change is as wide as possible.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

It is interesting to explain the purpose behind these amendments, and I can best do so by contrasting the referendum proposed in this Bill with the referendum that was held in 1975, when two White Papers were issued on the terms of the renegotiation between the United Kingdom and our European partners. That was prior to the Bill’s publication and its being presented to Parliament. When Parliament was asked on that occasion to consider legislation to establish a referendum, it knew the full details of what the implications of a no vote and, indeed, a yes vote would be for the electorate. That is what my amendments seek to put into the Bill, because, as drafted, it simply does not achieve that aim.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

In probing amendment 68, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he envisages consulting organisations such as the Farmers Union of Wales, NFU Cymru and the National Farmers Union in Scotland and in England? That would be important because of their specific interests in the European Union and because they have expressed their clear desire not to leave.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

That is correct and I agree with my hon. Friend in his ambition to make sure that when the Government produce proper documents to accompany any referendum, they take into account the interests of farmers and the rural economy. Leaving the EU would have profound implications for this country’s farming industry.

Photo of Daniel Kawczynski Daniel Kawczynski Conservative, Shrewsbury and Atcham

I have received representations from Shropshire farmers who very much want to remain in the European Union, but they will have the chance to be consulted, and to vote, in the referendum. Why do we need a separate process beforehand?

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Daniel Kawczyski mentions Shropshire farmers who he says very much want to remain in the EU. What he does not mention that more of his constituents...

Submitted by KENNETH TYRRELL Continue reading

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

If I may point out some of the problems with the hon. Gentleman’s argument, the reason for my amendments is that when a similar referendum was held in 1975, this House had had the benefit of two White Papers, a full debate and a full consultation. None of that has accompanied this Bill. It is because the interests of the farming industry, exporters and workers—whose rights at work might be diminished by the renegotiations—have not been considered that we should put the amendments in the Bill. The Government need to consult on the real interests of this country, not simply have an internal conversation within the Conservative party.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

Perhaps I have a helpful suggestion with regard to amendment 68. When Wales held a referendum on the Government of Wales Act 2006, my right hon. Friend Mr Hain pulled together wider civic society. A similar action with regard to this Bill would particularly help Wales, which benefits to the tune of roughly £40 of surplus per head as a result of farming and structural funds. We could pull voices together if the amendment is agreed to.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

I want to further explain the reasons for and rationale behind my amendments by examining the context of the referendum that will take place on these islands, in Scotland, next year. I may have my differences with the UK Government, but I entirely agree with the way in which they have published a series of detailed, factual accounts looking at the consequences for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom of Scotland’s leaving the UK. They have explored the consequences for macro-economic policy and the impact on trade, financial services and business. The publications have been produced by the Government even before the Scottish Parliament has fully passed its legislation to establish the question for next year’s referendum. If that process is good enough for the referendum in Scotland, it should be good enough for any referendum that the Bill’s promoter and the Government are keen to have.

Photo of Ian Lucas Ian Lucas Shadow Minister (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs)

Is not the key point that the Conservative party cannot even carry the Government, of which it is a member, to produce a White Paper, because the Liberal Democrats, who are also in the Government, would not support it? The Conservative party is so weak and divided that it cannot even produce its own White Paper.

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

Order. I am sure that Mr Bain will recognise that the intervention, however much merit it might have, is not pertinent to the matter being debated.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that this issue receives a similar assessment to what we have seen in Scotland. There should be an assessment of the impact on business of having different technical standards to meet if bilateral agreements have to be made with our EU partners instead of the comprehensive right of free trade that we have at the moment.

Photo of Robert Halfon Robert Halfon Conservative, Harlow

The referendum will not be tomorrow, but in 2017. There will be plenty of time for White Papers and consultations with whoever the hon. Gentleman likes, whether it is the CBI or anyone else. Are not his amendments a Trojan horse because he and his party do not want a referendum and do not want to give the British people a say in whether or not we remain in the European Union?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

We are trying to clarify what the Government and the promoter of the Bill want the public to have a say on. They have not said what terms they would accept to stay in the EU and they have not explained what the consequences would be if we had to leave the EU following a referendum. That is the information that we need, but it has been denied to the House and the country so far.

Photo of Barry Sheerman Barry Sheerman Labour, Huddersfield

I am certainly not anti-referendum. However, when a Bill is introduced through the back door by manipulating private Members’ business, it shortcuts all the proper procedures and safeguards. We argued in Committee that those safeguards should be introduced into the Bill.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

That is a pertinent and well made point.

Photo of Helen Goodman Helen Goodman Shadow Minister (Culture, Media and Sport)

Further to the intervention by my hon. Friend Mr Sheerman, is it the case that the Bill has received no pre-legislative scrutiny and that no evidence has been taken?

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

Sadly, that is correct. Before I became a Member of this House, I watched with great enthusiasm the passage of equivalent pieces of legislation, such as the devolution legislation of 1997, the Human Rights Act 1998, the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the House of Lords Act 1999. Those Acts were of prime constitutional importance and they were well scrutinised by this House and the implications were well debated by Members. We have simply not seen that with this Bill.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Labour, Ilford South

Is not the reason for this strange arrangement that there could be no consultation because it would never have been agreed to in Government? We therefore have the bizarre process of debating a private Member’s Bill that is backed by Ministers.

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

Order. Once again, I am sure that Mr Bain will recognise that that intervention was not in order because it did not relate to the matter in hand.

Photo of William Bain William Bain Labour, Glasgow North East

Thank you for that ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker.

There is an even stronger parallel to be drawn between the amendment and the Scottish referendum. The Government claimed rightly in January 2012 that setting an arbitrary date four years in the future for a referendum on a plan for Scotland to separate from the United Kingdom would create unnecessary uncertainty for inward investment and business. How can the Government believe that it is appropriate to have four years of uncertainty before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union? Surely the same argument applies, particularly given that the EU referendum, unlike its Scottish counterpart, would be conducted on the basis of a pre-negotiated treaty to alter the conditions of membership, which the Prime Minister may not even be able to achieve.

Let us not forget that the Prime Minister hopes to pull off the coup of negotiating such a treaty at a time when the UK will hold the presidency of the EU and ought to be prioritising the completion of the single market and boosting growth, jobs and trade; when there will just have been a French presidential election; and in the run-up to the next German federal elections. The window for getting the type of treaty that the Prime Minister believes is possible will be very small.

Where is the intellectual consistency between the arguments that the Prime Minister made in relation to Scotland, which were addressed in the Edinburgh agreement, and the case that the Bill’s promoter and the Minister have made today about the terms that they seek for 2017? We need business, unions such as the National Farmers Union and the voluntary sector to be consulted about their views on the timing of any referendum and the implications of leaving the EU.

If political circumstances necessitated a broader referendum, Members would consider them. However, the Bill in its current form would defeat the national interest, not serve it, and weaken, not strengthen our ability to build the alliances in the EU that we need now. We need to strengthen the Bill, so I urge the House to support amendments 68 and 70 and new schedule 2.

Photo of Adam Afriyie Adam Afriyie Chair, Members' Expenses Committee, Chair, Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, Chair, Members' Expenses Committee 1:30, 8 November 2013

It has been a bit of a bumpy ride for me getting to today, to say the least—particularly among colleagues—but I rise to support a 2014 referendum. We Conservatives are completely united in wanting to give the British people a voice on Europe. We would have had a referendum by now if the Liberal Democrats had not held us back in the coalition. It is disgraceful that Labour Members want to gag British people and deny them a say on this incredibly important issue, even though eight out of 10 of our constituents want to have their voice heard on Europe. It strikes me that, at a time when the majority of our constituents—

Photo of Helen Goodman Helen Goodman Shadow Minister (Culture, Media and Sport)

This is a point of order.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to give us his general overview of the political situation in this country when he is supposed to be debating these particular amendments to this particular Bill?

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

I thank the hon. Lady for her point. At the moment, the hon. Gentleman is giving a general introduction to his remarks, but he will undoubtedly come very quickly to the crux of his argument, and I am quite certain that he will then stick precisely to the amendments.

Photo of Barry Sheerman Barry Sheerman Labour, Huddersfield

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have a great deal of time for the honesty of the stand that Adam Afriyie takes on the matter, but I object to his attributing to me and the Opposition attitudes that are not true. We are not against a referendum—

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order. If he wishes to engage in debate with Adam Afriyie, I am sure he can seek to intervene in due course.

Photo of Adam Afriyie Adam Afriyie Chair, Members' Expenses Committee, Chair, Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, Chair, Members' Expenses Committee

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your wise words. I am speaking specifically about a 2014 referendum, which is proposed in amendment 22 and my amendment 3.

Photo of Charles Walker Charles Walker Chair, Procedure Committee, Chair, Procedure Committee

I thank my hon. Friend, and I am sorry for being one of the bumps in the bumpy ride that he has had. He has taken his admonishment in good grace.

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that if we have a referendum in 2017, as proposed in the Bill, we will have more time to make our argument and persuade the British people of what is in their interest?

Photo of Adam Afriyie Adam Afriyie Chair, Members' Expenses Committee, Chair, Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, Chair, Members' Expenses Committee

As I said, we are completely united as a party in wanting to give the British people a say. There are differences between us on timing, and I will come to that point in a moment.

It strikes me that, at a time when the majority of our constituents want a referendum before the next election, I have never known a period in British politics when the political establishment has been so disconnected from public opinion, and so remote from, opposed to and out of touch with it. Politicians have wilfully kicked the can further and further down the road, and we will be in danger of doing that again if neither my amendment 3 nor amendment 22 is supported.

Photo of Adam Afriyie Adam Afriyie Chair, Members' Expenses Committee, Chair, Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, Chair, Members' Expenses Committee

I will not give way any more, because I am conscious that the Opposition want to talk out the Bill, and I do not want to be part of that process.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman says that the Opposition are trying to talk out the Bill, but interventions are being made by Government Members. May I, through your good offices, ask him to reconsider?

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order and that nobody is talking out anything in this Chamber—there is no such action. The only words that will be allowed in the Chamber today are those entirely in order with proceedings.

Photo of Adam Afriyie Adam Afriyie Chair, Members' Expenses Committee, Chair, Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, Chair, Members' Expenses Committee

Again, I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your wise words on all matters under debate.

We as politicians have kicked the can down the road for generation after generation, and we are in danger of doing so again today. I ask a simple question: if not in this Parliament, when else can we be sure to secure a referendum? My amendment and amendment 22 offer a way forward. I say in all humility and kindness to my colleagues that, by chasing the EU referendum dream for 2017, we risk losing one in 2014 and throwing away the 2015 election. I urge every hon. Member to listen to their constituents and to try, through one of the amendments, to grant the British people a referendum in 2014.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

May I also express my delight at seeing you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, and respond briefly to Adam Afriyie by asking whether he has so little confidence that his party will win the next general election that that is the reason for rushing to an early referendum?

I wish to speak to amendments 77 and 78, which I tabled. Amendment 77 would ensure that if there is a referendum in 2017, as the Government propose, it would not fall during the UK’s presidency of the European Union. It would be absurd to have a referendum process running conterminously with our presidency of the EU. Amendment 78 would ensure that there would be a delay of at least 28 weeks—roughly seven months—between setting a date by order for a referendum, and the referendum itself, to allow for full consultation. That point is the burden of my contribution today.

I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend Mr Bain and new schedule 2, to which I have added my name, which also calls for greater consultation. I am worried that Britain may be sleepwalking into withdrawal from the European Union without realising that that would be the result of circumstances created first by the Prime Minister’s referendum timetable, and secondly by the Bill. An exit would be catastrophic for British jobs and prosperity, which is why any referendum, and particularly any date for a referendum as specified in amendments, should be considered only after the fullest possible formal consultation with the British people.

Photo of Brian Binley Brian Binley Conservative, Northampton South

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why an exit would cause the loss of loads of jobs in this country when we have a balance of payments deficit with the EU of some £70 billion?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman raises that issue as I will deal with it later on and call for greater consultation on the matter. Unless the facts are revealed objectively and all organisations are properly consulted, people will not be in a position to make a sensible decision about whether to vote yes or no in the referendum he seeks.

The great flaw in the Bill is that it proposes no such consultation and there is no obligation on the Government to consult anybody. Other than a campaign that will be compressed into a particular period, and the inevitable media focus at the time, there is no sense that everybody will be involved in the great debate on an historic issue for the future of Britain, and indeed Europe. The Bill sets an arbitrary time limit without placing any obligation on the Government to consult. The referendum itself will be the only “consultation”—by bouncing voters into a decision by the end of 2017 or, if the hon. Member for Windsor gets his way, by October 2014.

For example, the business community needs to be properly consulted—paragraph (j) of new schedule 2 specifies how it could be consulted. The CBI, to which specific reference is made in the new schedule, recently reported that eight out of 10 of its members, including roughly the same proportion of its small and medium-sized enterprise members, said that they would vote for the UK to remain a member of the EU if a referendum were held tomorrow. The CBI should be properly consulted, not simply presented with a referendum on an arbitrary date. Nearly three quarters of CBI member businesses reported that the UK’s membership of the EU has had a positive overall impact on their business. They should be consulted, too, so that everybody, whether employees or management, can transmit their view to the wider community.

Photo of Edward Leigh Edward Leigh Chair, Public Accounts Commission, Chair, Public Accounts Commission

Labour Members appear to want to consult the CBI, Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all, which is fair enough, but are they in favour of consulting the British people in a referendum—yes or no?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

Labour has never been afraid of consulting people in referendums. We have called more referendums in our history than any other party. Labour is the only party that ever called a referendum on the EU—the Conservatives took us into membership of the Common Market without one. Labour Members have never been afraid to consult the people, and we have specified the circumstances in which we would hold a referendum.

Despite CBI member companies’ frustrations with many aspects of EU membership, which, as a pro-European, I share, more than half of them—some 52%—say that they have directly benefited from the introduction of common European standards. Only 15% suggested that that had had a negative impact. A consultation would reveal that and enable it to be properly debated, assessed and considered.

Those CBI members believe that UK influence has helped to maximise the openness of the EU. Some 72% of British businesses believe that the UK has a significant influence on EU policies that affect them.

Photo of Bob Stewart Bob Stewart Conservative, Beckenham

I would have thought that those points of view would come out in the campaign, so why would we need consultation? Surely, in the yes, no or whatever campaigns, the various interests groups would directly lobby the British people, rather than MPs.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I have taken every intervention that hon. Members have wished to make and I want to make progress, but I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s point first. As an experienced politician, he, like all hon. Members, knows that, in the din and pressure of a three-week campaign, with all the focus that that brings, it is very difficult to get all the arguments across. We need a proper assessment so that the British public have the chance to make their minds up, free from the influence of Eurosceptic newspapers, which dominate the debate. They should make their minds up on the facts by consulting the CBI, the TUC, the Institute of Directors and other such organisations. Those organisations will want their say, and the way to achieve that is through proper consultation, for which the Bill does not provide.

The City is a significant institution that will need to be consulted, which could be achieved under paragraph (j) of new schedule 2. According to the evidence we have, such a consultation would reveal that the City takes the same view as the CBI—it believes that British membership is positive for financial institutions. Why is the City not being consulted? Are the Government scared of consulting it? Is James Wharton, the Bill’s promoter, scared of consulting it? Some 84% of Britain’s financial sector executives are strongly in favour of staying at the centre of the EU, according to a survey published in October by TheCityUK. Through a consultation, we could drill down into that and see whether it is a proper assessment.

The financial services sector accounts for 13% of gross domestic product and contributes more than £60 billion in taxes. Nearly 80% of all foreign exchange trades in the EU take place in the City, as do 74% of all interest rate derivative trades. The idea that the City would want to be frogmarched out of Europe is complete nonsense, as a consultation would reveal.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash Chair, European Scrutiny Committee, Chair, European Scrutiny Committee 1:45, 8 November 2013

The right hon. Gentleman has massive pro-European credentials, as he puts it, so will he explain why he voted against the Maastricht treaty Bill on Third Reading?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention because I am about to name-check him—and to answer his question.

The City must be properly consulted, as new schedule 2 and amendment 68 would provide, and its concerns, like those of CBI members, need to be understood by the electorate well in advance of a short and compressed campaign so that voters are not bamboozled by newspapers and stampeded into a referendum.

Photo of Martin Horwood Martin Horwood Liberal Democrat, Cheltenham

The right hon. Gentleman is making important points. I suspect that we probably agree on whether Britain should be in or out of the European Union, but he must accept that we do not really need a formal consultation exercise to find out what the CBI thinks. It said clearly, in a definitive report published on Monday:

“While the UK can certainly survive outside the EU, none of the alternatives suggested offers a clear path to an improved balance of advantages and disadvantages or greater influence.”

The CBI clearly wants us to stay in. Do we really need a consultation to establish that?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

What we need is for the Government to consult the CBI properly, not just stick a copy of its report into the Library. We need a report to Parliament, as amendment 68 suggests. It is a serious report by a serious organisation—

Photo of Barry Sheerman Barry Sheerman Labour, Huddersfield

Who would we consult about peace? We are coming up to Remembrance Sunday. In 1914, bad newspaper leaders and bad politicians led this country into war. The European Union has maintained prosperity and peace for all these years—are we going to give that up?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I will come to that point when I discuss whether we should consult groups such as the Royal British Legion.

Photo of Susan Elan Jones Susan Elan Jones Opposition Whip (Commons)

One consultee that my right hon. Friend proposes is the National Farmers Union. As urban areas are, by their nature, in the majority, those of us who represent rural areas are always fearful that the voice of rural Britain will be left out. Does he agree that it is of pivotal importance that farming groups are consulted?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I do, and I am about to make that point.

As Mr Cash said, I am a pro-European, but I am also a critical one. That is why amendments 77, 78 and 68 and new schedule 2 are important. I am not a Europhile who cannot see that the EU needs reform or who wants integration at all costs. I am a practical European. I voted yes in the 1975 referendum but, as an MP in 1992, I voted no in the House to the Maastricht treaty—with the hon. Gentleman, among others—because I did not think the foundations on which the euro was erected were the right ones. Time has probably proved that view correct.

As Europe Minister over a decade ago, I was intensely frustrated with what I call the Brussels bubble, which is mainly inhabited by Commission officials, small-country Ministers and European parliamentarians. It exists in a world of its own, forming an elite and making the EU increasingly unpopular among its citizens. But—and this is the point of a proper consultation—none of this means that we should pull out, any more than Scottish frustrations with the Westminster bubble mean that Scotland should withdraw from the United Kingdom, or voters’ frustrations with all the major political parties, including Labour and Conservative, mean that they should give up on parliamentary democracy.

We need systematic consultation with a report that Parliament can properly assess before deciding how to proceed. I am sure that the Royal British Legion, if consulted, would have something to say. Just imagine if, at the end of the second world war, Monnet and others had concluded that 80 years of bitter Franco-German hatred made European unity impossible.

The following 60 years of Franco-German reconciliation and EU achievement would never have occurred. That is a matter that organisations, particularly veterans organisations, should be properly consulted upon, under sub-paragraph (j) of new schedule 2. It is incumbent on our generation to find the means to take Europe forward on the global stage, not to retreat into reactionary isolationism.

Amendment 68, like new schedule 2, would place an obligation on the Government to consult on all these matters. It is essential that we do so. The consultation would also be an opportunity to recognise that Europe’s first achievement was to remove the internal tariff barriers that held back growth and prosperity across the whole continent, including Britain. We accepted that, especially with globalisation, our interests were best served by bringing down barriers, which enabled Europe to act as one unit in trade and become a more powerful, if as yet imperfect, force for trade liberalisation under internationally agreed common rules. Again, we could be talking to the business sector and exporters about that, if the Government had the courage. It makes me wonder why they do not. Have they got a reason to be worried about a proper consultation?

Consultation under these amendments would also give us the opportunity to remind everybody—in particular, it would give the older generation a chance to remind younger citizens voting in this referendum, if it happens—that Europe’s success in reconciling once-bitter foes established and consolidated peace and democracy across the EU. It is important that there be proper consultation, that this be assessed and that Parliament have a chance to reflect upon it. For example, EU enlargement, first to Greece, Spain and Portugal—countries that until relatively recently were fascist dictatorships—and now to former communist states in central and eastern Europe that were also under a form of dictatorship, has amply shown how the zone of stability, democracy and prosperity can be extended right across a continent on which more wars have been fought over the centuries than in any other part of the world.

Similarly, with proper consultation—my amendment 78 suggests a minimum of 28 weeks—we could assess the impact of our being part of association agreements with Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova and of the continuing accession negotiations that the EU is conducting with Turkey. I believe it essential that those negotiations succeed, because Turkey is a vital bridge between Europe and Asia, west and east, Christianity and Islam. If we enter a referendum campaign in the heat and din of a three-week in/out squabble, none of these issues will be revealed, and that is why consultation is essential.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that consultation would also allow light to be shone on the work of the Centre for European Reform, which only this month produced 35 recommendations that were very much in line with his comments and none of which, they argued, needed our exit from the EU?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

Indeed, I think the CER does some very good work, and again I hope that under sub-paragraph (j) it will be properly consulted by the Government. It is a serious analyst. By the way, Eurosceptic organisations should be consulted as well under that sub-paragraph.

A series of other organisations, some of them specified in the new schedule, including the Trades Union Congress, should be consulted, so that people can understand that the EU has brought with it policies to extend social, environmental and consumer rights. Without those, and despite the EU’s faults, we would not have as fair a society as we do today. Organisations such as Citizens Advice and the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, specified in new schedule 2, could have their say as well.

Consultation would provide another opportunity to recognise that Europe has its faults but that the remedy is to get in there and argue for a stronger reformed

Europe, not for Britain to turn its back and walk away. Although it has become fashionable to criticise Euroland, a consultation would reveal that its productivity per hour worked is far higher than Britain’s. The work force are, sadly, more highly skilled, and public services such as health and transport are superior. Under new schedule 2, whether under sub-paragraph (g) or others, organisations such as the National Council of Voluntary Organisations would be able to express their view and say whether they agree with that assessment.

Consultation would afford another opportunity. The continentals probably have something to learn from our better record on employability and our more flexible market. Equally, it would reveal that we need to acknowledge that our employees are far less protected and subject to much greater job insecurity than those on the continent. Consultation with the TUC and other organisations, including the citizens advice bureaux, would reveal the high social costs of the inferior rights and job security which, sadly, exist in Britain.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Labour, Ilford South

If there were to be a referendum on the basis that the Government, or at least the Conservative party is proposing, it would be on worse terms in respect of the rights of trade unionists, women and people on maternity leave. It would not be a question of the status quo or leaving. It would be question of a worse position or leaving, as was put forward by the Fresh Start Group and other Conservative Back-Bench groups.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I agree completely. All that social protection would be dispensed with under the Conservative nirvana.

New schedule 2 and amendment 68 would provide for consultation on the common agricultural policy, a matter that was briefly raised earlier. I would like not only the National Farmers Union to be consulted under sub-paragraph (b) of new schedule 2 but the Farmers’ Union of Wales and NFU Cymru under sub-paragraph (j), because the CAP is wasteful and works against the interests of the world’s poor. However, a Britain on the margins of Europe would not be in a strong position to reform the CAP—I am sure that that would be revealed by a consultation—and nor would it be able to create more sustainable agriculture and rural communities. Without a full commitment to the EU, we will have less influence, too, on determining European negotiating positions in the World Trade Organisation negotiations. I am sure that farmers’ unions and organisations would endorse the position that I have just advanced in a consultation.

If we exited from the EU, we would have less influence on CAP reform. The fact that we are on the border of the rest of the EU means that we are affected by the CAP whether we like it or not. We would disadvantage our own farmers by not having the ability to influence what was going on in Brussels and the policies that flow from that. A consultation would reveal that. Overwhelmingly, farmers’ unions and organisations would favour remaining in the EU. The consultation would reveal the arguments in detail and test them in a way that will not be possible in a short referendum campaign.

Photo of Martin Horwood Martin Horwood Liberal Democrat, Cheltenham

I agree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman says about the way our influence on many of these issues would be reduced if we left the EU. However, if I may draw him back to his new schedule, is there not a problem with such a prescriptive list of organisations? If the NFU is included, why not the Soil Association or the Country Land and Business Association? If Universities UK is included, why not the Russell Group or the Gazelle group of FE colleges? If the Association of Chief Police Officers is included, why not GCHQ—that would be topical? There is a problem with having such a prescriptive list.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I am at a loss to understand what exactly the Lib Dem role is in all this. If the hon. Gentleman looks at new schedule 2, he will see that sub-paragraph (j) provides for “other organisations”, and that includes all the organisations that he mentioned and many more that I am about to mention.

On the question of a proper, concerted approach to the environment in the whole of the EU, the consultation could seek the views of Friends of the Earth, which is mentioned in sub-paragraph (h), the Local Government Association, which is mentioned in sub-paragraph (i), Greenpeace, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the World Wide Fund for Nature. All those organisations would be able to confirm in a consultation that Britain on its own would be unable to guarantee a sustainable future for our citizens. We are so close to the continent of Europe that clear skies, pure water, clean beaches and a healthy environment can be delivered only through co-operation at European level. A consultation on the environment would reveal the case for staying in the European Union and why the Bill is so irrelevant.

I turn now to consultation on other issues. In the past 25 years, the greatest promoters of workers’ rights, women’s rights and the rights of all against discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, sexual orientation, age and disability have been European directives and decisions of the European Court of Justice that have often been forced on reluctant British Governments. There should be consultations with the TUC under sub-paragraph (c), with the National Council for Voluntary Organisations under sub-paragraph (g) and, under sub-paragraph (j), with Age UK, Disability Rights UK, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Stonewall and a number of other organisations that I am sure would be queuing up to be consulted to reinforce the point that our membership of the European Union is valuable for their members and for British citizens in general.

I would also like to see proper consultation with the people of Wales prior to a referendum being called. I suspect that the Welsh Government would happily organise such a consultation on behalf of the UK Government if the amendment were accepted by the promoter of the Bill. I suppose that the Welsh Government could qualify under sub-paragraph (j), as one of the “other organisations”, but I think they deserve rather more respect than that. Such a consultation would provide an opportunity to show that Wales benefits hugely from the UK’s membership of the European Union. Without the £1.9 billion of EU funds, Wales would be missing £3.7 billion of investment since 2007. For those who need further convincing, that top-line figure breaks down into 6,000 new enterprises and 20,000 jobs. It is this support from Europe’s funds that made possible the highly successful Jobs Growth Wales programme, which created more than 8,000 jobs for young people. A consultation organised by the Welsh Government on behalf of the UK Government would allow that proposition to be assessed. Opponents of remaining in the EU would also be able to assess it. A debate could take place, and a proper report could be presented to Parliament.

Photo of Graham Stringer Graham Stringer Labour, Blackley and Broughton 2:00, 8 November 2013

My right hon. Friend is making a balanced speech, but will he explain how putting £2 into the European Union for every £1 that comes back to us is a sensible use of taxpayers’ money?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I was discussing Wales, where there is a surplus of £40 per person in relation to the money contributed to the EU, compared with the money that comes back. I shall not go any further into my answer to my hon. Friend, as that would take me beyond the terms of the debate.

A consultation of the people of Wales, organised by Welsh Government, would overwhelmingly endorse our continued membership of the European Union. More importantly, it would put objective facts before Parliament for us to assess. That is what the amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East would provide for.

A full consultation would reveal that the values that the British people have long supported are also fundamentally European values. They are the values of community, solidarity, social justice and cohesion, and a fair chance in life for all. Those British values are also European values, and they are best realised through co-operation with our European colleagues. Consultation under sub-paragraph (j) would allow us to consult the Royal United Services Institute. I think it would say that the idea of Britain pulling up the drawbridge and declaring ourselves alone is nonsense. Anti-Europeanism has no answers to the increasing interdependence of our globe. I am sure that RUSI would endorse that position. I do not speak for it, but it would at any rate have the opportunity through this consultation to express its point of view and it will then be for all of us to make an assessment of it.

It seems to me that we need to emphasise the importance of that to the promoter of the Bill. Why he will not accept these amendments, I have no idea. I have no idea either why the Government will not support them or why the Minister will not support them—unless he is going to surprise me; I hope he does. From the way he is smiling enigmatically at me, it does not look as if he is going to surprise me. I believe that these amendments, however, would enhance the strength of the case for this Bill.

Another opportunity for this consultation would be the laying out of the facts about the consequences for Britain of those who argue that European withdrawal would be replaced by joining the North Atlantic free trade area. If we consulted the CBI, or for that matter the Institute of Directors or independent groups such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, I am sure it would reveal that British trade with the EU was three times that with North America. We have over twice the amount of trade with Holland than with the major south-eastern economies. The rest of the EU buys three times as many UK exports by value as the UK’s next most important export partner, the US—equivalent to 15% of UK gross domestic product. Again, we would be able to assess those facts. No doubt UKIP and others would make their arguments, but without a proper assessment and without the proper consultation for which we are asking, none of those arguments will have a chance to be assessed in the run-up to the short, concentrated, volatile and highly-charged referendum campaign.

Photo of Ian Murray Ian Murray Shadow Minister (Business, Innovation and Skills)

My right hon. Friend is making a strong case showing why these issues need to be examined in great depth. If he reflects on the referendum that is currently happening for Scotland, he will find that the debate has not risen to the levels he mentions, because we have not had the in-depth analysis of issues surrounding the Scottish referendum. The debate has left so many unanswered questions that the people of Scotland are demanding more information.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

As a Scottish MP of high repute in this House, my hon. Friend presents his evidence with some credibility. He is right that the Scottish referendum process reinforces exactly the case we are putting for these amendments.

Those who want us to withdraw from the EU suggest that we can have our cake and eat it by staying within the European single market to retain the great bulk of our trade, which is with EU countries. Once again, this could be assessed through a proper consultation, as specified in amendment 68 and new schedule 2. Those who want to withdraw first argue that we would avoid the costs of membership, which they denounce as too high; secondly, they insist that EU regulations make our economy uncompetitive; and thirdly, they allege a loss of sovereignty that comes with European political union.

Our amendments would enable us to assess what those arguments amount to and how seriously we should take them. They would provide an opportunity properly to consult all the different groups involved and all the different sources of expertise, which would reveal that the facts are rather different. It would reveal first that the price of Britain’s EU membership is rather more modest than the anti-Europeans would have us believe. The Government contributed £7 billion to the EU in 2012, which is around 1%—

Photo of Edward Leigh Edward Leigh Chair, Public Accounts Commission, Chair, Public Accounts Commission

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is this a debate about the merits of remaining part of the European Union, or not?

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

I have already explained this morning that I am listening carefully to all Members to ensure that they adhere strictly to the terms of the amendments they are proposing. The right hon. Member is in order in the remarks he is making.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I believe that a consultation would also reveal that the Government contributed £7 billion to the EU in 2012, about 1% of total public expenditure and equivalent to 0.4% of GDP—I am sure that the CBI would have something to say about this, because its report seems to suggest the same thing. Although leaving the EU and rejoining the single market would cost Britain less, it would not be much less. We would need to negotiate a relationship like that enjoyed by Norway, the largest of the nations in the European economic area, which we would presumably join.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Labour, Ilford South

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I want to make some progress so that others have a chance to speak.

A consultation with the Institute of Directors, the CBI or the independent economic think-tanks would also endorse the notion that joining the EEA would cost Britain about £6 billion. Yes, that is about £1 billion —or 17% less than our membership of the EU—but it is still a large amount in comparison and assumes that our EU partners would, after our departure, be in an open frame of mind to accept us back into some kind of trading relationship. I am sure that the CBI and all the other business organisations, including the British Chambers of Commerce, would want to have a say on that.

As members of the European economic area, we would still be bound by the regulations that the anti-EU camp denounce. In return for access to the single market, Norway and all the other relevant countries, such as Switzerland and Iceland, must adopt nearly all European Union legislation relevant to the free movement of goods, services, capital and people, together with laws in areas such as employment, consumer protection, environmental policy and competition.

There would, of course, be the chance properly to assess such a move. A report would be placed before Parliament and we would spend days debating on the Floor of the House whether to accept the report and the assessment. We would also be able to assess one point made by the CBI, which would also have a greater chance to have its say than it would during the compressed period of a short referendum campaign. That point is that we would also be bound by future European law in those areas, even though we were outside the European Union.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash Chair, European Scrutiny Committee, Chair, European Scrutiny Committee

Will the right hon. Gentleman address the question asked by my hon. Friend Adam Afriyie about the date of 23 October 2014, which has not yet been debated? Does he agree that a referendum on that date would get totally entangled with the Scottish referendum, which will take place only a month before? Furthermore, it is dangerous to choose a specific date, as was the case in 2007 when we had to delay the local elections because of the foot and mouth outbreak. There are a whole stack of reasons for not having a specific date for a referendum.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

As in 1992 and 1993, when the hon. Gentleman and I were on the same side of the argument on the Maastricht treaty, I completely agree with him. His logic on this point is absolutely faultless, even if it often is not on many other European matters.

I believe—perhaps I am wrong—that all the business organisations, if consulted, would take the view of the CBI report and dismiss a customs union as an alternative to European Union membership—the “Turkey option”—as the very worst of all the halfway alternatives, leaving the UK with very limited EU market access and zero influence over trade deals.

Photo of Julian Lewis Julian Lewis Conservative, New Forest East

The right hon. Gentleman is very gracious to give way when we are so pressed for time. May I invite him to return to the point raised by my hon. Friend Mr Cash? If the setting of an earlier date is such a problem, will the right hon. Gentleman explain why amendment 22, tabled by his own colleague, Mike Gapes, suggests the date of 2014? Although I was listening very carefully to the scintillating speech made by Mr Bain, I am not sure that I heard him address that specific point. I would be very interested to know whether the Opposition intend to vote for that amendment.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

Although I have much respect for the hon. Gentleman, I invite him to wait and see. He might not even find out today, for all I know; that is not in my hands. If my hon. Friend Mike Gapes has the chance to catch Madam Deputy Speaker’s eye, no doubt the hon. Gentleman’s question will be answered.

Consultation under new schedule 2 would reveal that retaining membership of a customs union only would be an inappropriate economic stance for the UK in the modern global economy. The CBI report suggests that, with non-tariff barriers often replacing tariffs as the major obstacle to trade, a customs union would not be sufficient to support Britain’s trading ambitions in the modern global economy, with its complex supply chains, and could limit UK access to EU markets in areas such as services, on which our economy is so based.

Then we come to direct trade. Again, consultation with the CBI, the Institute of Directors and British Chambers of Commerce under new schedule 2 and amendment 68 would reveal that Britain’s trade with countries outside the EU is all conducted under the auspices of trading agreements negotiated centrally by Brussels, as the EU has exclusive competence to negotiate trade agreements with other countries. No EU member state can have its own separate bilateral trade agreements.

If we left the EU, given its trading arrangements with other EU countries and outside the EU, our trading arrangements would likely be determined by individual bilateral negotiations, and we would do so by default on terms governed by World Trade Organisation agreements. As a member of the WTO in our own right, there is no legal impediment to our negotiating such agreements, but we would be in a much weaker position, and a consultation would reveal that as well.

As I think that the CBI would argue, given that its report makes much the same point, if it were consulted and had a proper chance to consult all its members—something that it could not possibly do during a three-week or so referendum campaign, nor would Parliament be able to assess the outcome of that consultation—it would reveal that the UK would become eligible for tariffs outside the EU that the EU imposes on goods that enter from outside the Union. It might also face higher tariffs levied by other countries with which the EU has preferential trade agreements.

A consultation would also reveal that, as the CBI has argued in its report, going it alone through the WTO would reduce market access through increased tariffs on UK goods and services. Refraining from entering into any formal relationship with the EU and simply relying on the WTO rules is not a model that would assist Britain in achieving the global trading role to which we aspire and which we have enjoyed historically.

Photo of John Baron John Baron Conservative, Basildon and Billericay 2:15, 8 November 2013

I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, but I suggest that he does not keep referring to the CBI. After all, it was the organisation that suggested that there would be dire consequences if we did not join the euro.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s wider point about trade, much smaller countries at the heart of Europe, such as Switzerland, do not just survive but thrive outside the EU on the basis of trade. I suggest that he reflect on that, because he is talking down our ability to negotiate trade agreements with the wider world, and doing so is not justified by the evidence or facts.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, he will not be surprised to hear. Norway and especially Switzerland are small countries. Britain is a big country, with an historic global role in trade, diplomacy and defence. The idea that we will be a kind of Norway with nukes seems to be no prescription for Britain’s future, holding its head high in the world.

Photo of Phil Wilson Phil Wilson Opposition Assistant Whip (Commons)

If we are not going to listen just to the CBI, perhaps we should listen to Nissan in my region as well. Nissan has said today that it would be a real mistake to leave Europe and to exit that door. When we consider that it employs 6,500 in the north-east and has 40,000 people in the supply chain, is it not the kind of people we should be listening to as well?

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

Indeed. A consultation should be held, and one of the first organisations that should be consulted under paragraph (j) of new schedule 2 is Nissan. With its 6,500 workers in Sunderland, it is a major European car manufacturer. What did its chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, say today? He said:

“If anything has to change,”

Nissan would

“need to reconsider our strategy and our investments for the future”— that is to say, if Britain were to leave the European Union.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I will make progress. I have let the hon. Gentleman in a number of times.

The point that I was about to make about consultation is that inward investors, particularly Japanese companies such as Nissan, come into the European Union bringing with them tens of thousands of jobs—direct jobs and indirect jobs—and a great deal of wealth. They come here because they will be part of the single market of the European Union. Again, under new schedule 2 we would be able to consult them. We would be able to consult Ford, which has plants at Bridgend and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Such companies are in the United Kingdom rather than elsewhere in the European Union because we are members of the EU and part of the single market. We would want to consult them, as well as Sony, Toyota—[Interruption.] We would want to consult Airbus, my hon. Friend Huw Irranca-Davies reminds me. That is a really important company, right on the Welsh-English border in the north-east of Wales. It would need to be consulted as well.

Photo of Eleanor Laing Eleanor Laing Deputy Speaker (First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means), First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means

Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman attempts to make further progress, I should suggest to him that although he has been perfectly in order in speaking about consultation, he is in danger of being a little repetitive. It might be as well for him to consider drawing his remarks to a conclusion in the near future.

Photo of Peter Hain Peter Hain Labour, Neath

I was planning to do precisely that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret having taken so many interventions, otherwise I would have concluded already.

On the argument about sovereignty, under sub-paragraph (j) of new schedule 2 we would consult organisations such as the Royal United Services Institute in respect of our membership of NATO. We have given up sovereignty to be members of NATO, but we have gained extra power and influence. We have given up sovereignty—yes, of course we have—to be members of the European Union, but we have gained extra economic, political and diplomatic influence. If we consulted Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace about the environmental benefits that we have gained by having a say in the policies of the countries right on our border on the continent of Europe, it would be clear that we are a key force in determining those decisions.

All the evidence points to the fact that systematic consultation with all the different parts of our society, all the groups in our society specified in new schedule 2, would give us a great opportunity to go into the debate and decide, if we are to have a referendum at all, when it should be. That would be the great advantage which the Bill, unamended, denies us. More importantly, it denies an obligation on Government to consult and, having consulted over a lengthy period, an obligation to come back to Parliament, and for Parliament to have a considered debate rather than to be stampeded into a referendum next year. For all the reasons given by Mr Cash and others, that would be the wrong choice, in my view.

Without my amendment being accepted, setting an arbitrary date some time in 2017 could conceivably mean that the referendum would be held right in the middle of the United Kingdom presidency. Imagine the nonsense of doing that and leaving us in an entirely invidious position—indeed, a laughing stock if a referendum took place during that six months.

I hope the promoter of the Bill will reconsider accepting the amendments, and I hope that when the Europe Minister contributes to the debate, he will back them. If either of them does not do so, I have to ask what they are frightened of. Are they frightened of the facts and the arguments being revealed, and the British people deciding either that they do not want a referendum at all on the proposed timetable or, if they do want a referendum at some stage in the future, that staying in the European Union is the right thing to do?

Photo of David Lidington David Lidington The Minister for Europe

The amendments in this group fall into three categories: the significant amendment about consultation spoken to by the right hon. Member for

Neath (Mr Hain), the amendments that seek to require the Government to avoid clashes between the referendum and religious holidays or other elections, and the important amendments of various kinds to do with the date in question.

First, I will deal with consultation. I enjoyed the right hon. Gentleman’s speech—his paean to the merits of the European Union and Britain’s membership of it. I find myself in agreement with some elements, such as the successes of the single market, enlargement and Franco-German reconciliation, although he may have underplayed some of the downsides of how the EU currently operates. However, the point is that the Bill does not seek to prescribe whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the European Union but to give the British people the final decision on that question, on which there are perfectly honourable, long-standing differences of view within all the main political parties in this House.

The right hon. Gentleman overlooked the fact that a massive consultation exercise, which the Government are leading, is already under way on the current balance of competences in the European Union, and it goes far wider than the organisations specified in the Opposition’s proposals. Moreover, the Opposition underplay the fact that in a real referendum campaign there will be the widest of debates involving all the organisations listed in new schedule 2 and many more.

Photo of David Lidington David Lidington The Minister for Europe

The serious work on the reform of the European Union is already under way. I know that my hon. Friend will be delighted by the successful reform of the common fisheries policy, the ban on discarding, the push towards local regional management of fisheries, the cut in the EU budget, and the moves on deregulation that this Government have already achieved, even in coalition.

Photo of Gareth Thomas Gareth Thomas Shadow Minister (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs), Party Chair, Co-operative Party

The Minister is just talking about the past. What powers and competences does he think the Prime Minister wants to bring back? Sir Edward Leigh asked a perfectly reasonable question. Will the Minister answer it? What has he got to hide?

Photo of David Lidington David Lidington The Minister for Europe

What I would like to know from the hon. Gentleman and his party is whether they want to give the British people a say in our future in Europe or they are determined to deny them that say.

Given the reality of the debate that will take place, and given that the Electoral Commission would appoint umbrella organisations for yes and no campaigns, this well-intentioned new schedule is unnecessary because there is no need to specify organisations in that way.

The same is true of the amendments tabled by Mike Gapes about religious holidays and potential clashes with other elections. These matters already have to be considered.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Labour, Ilford South

The Minister should be aware that I have not yet had a chance to speak to those amendments, so he is referring to them in the absence of my having done so. I hope that I may get that chance on 22 November.

Photo of David Lidington David Lidington The Minister for Europe

The amendments touch on matters that every Government already have to consider in looking at election dates. Successive Governments have taken a pragmatic approach to those matters, and it would be disproportionate to include them in the Bill.

Photo of Gareth Thomas Gareth Thomas Shadow Minister (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs), Party Chair, Co-operative Party

Surely the Minister thinks that the British people are entitled to know what plan B would be if a referendum that the Prime Minister calls leads to a British exit. Why not, then, consult the CBI about the Switzerland option or the Norway option? Why will he not concede that possibility and the need for that consultation?

Photo of David Lidington David Lidington The Minister for Europe

It is already open to the CBI and to any other such organisations to express their views fully and vigorously, and that is what they do at all times, in conversations with Ministers, in publications, and in debates and forums. I know that the hon. Gentleman has only just been appointed to this role, but he ought to wake up and see the debate that is actually going on rather than trying to invoke some kind of Aunt Sally.

Photo of Barry Sheerman Barry Sheerman Labour, Huddersfield

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can wake up to the fact that still we have not heard from the promoter of a private Member’s Bill on a private Member’s day. What is going on in this Chamber?

Photo of Chris Williamson Chris Williamson Labour, Derby North

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Earlier in the debate, he said that the stakeholders referred to in new schedule 2 would be able to make their views known during the course of a referendum campaign. Does he not believe that they have an interest in the referendum date? That is what the consultation is about. Will the Minister deal with that point?

The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)).

Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday 22 November.