Clause 1 — Charge for 2012-13 and rates for 2012-13 and subsequent tax years

Finance Bill (Ways and Means) – in the House of Commons at 7:00 pm on 2nd July 2012.

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Votes in this debate

  • Division number 35
    A majority of MPs voted to set the additional rate of income tax, applying to income over £150,000 per year, at 45% for 2013-14, a reduction from the previous 50% rate.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury) 7:00 pm, 2nd July 2012

I beg to move amendment 1, page 2, line 6, leave out paragraph (c).

Photo of Dawn Primarolo Dawn Primarolo Deputy Speaker (Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 2, page 2, line 7, leave out subsections (3) to (6).

Amendment 23, page 2, line 36, leave out Clause 4.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

The amendment deals with an unfair situation that I mentioned earlier. People who are already earning considerable amounts, millionaires and others receiving the highest levels of pay, will benefit from the Government’s proposal to reduce their tax rate to 45%. We had a good debate on the subject on Second Reading, but were not able to discuss it in Committee. At that time we wanted the Government to reconsider, and not just because millionaires were set to receive something equivalent to a £40,000 per annum tax cut.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

My hon. Friend may be interested to learn something that I myself learnt from a television programme that had no direct connection with economics. It was part of a series about London streets. A banker who was talking about his home in Portland road said that prices there had risen considerably since the taxpayer had bailed out the banks, and that far from suffering from the current financial situation, people seemed to be benefiting.

Photo of Dawn Primarolo Dawn Primarolo Deputy Speaker (Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means)

Order. I must inform Robert Halfon that only one Member should be standing on the Floor of the House at any one time. Welcome to the Opposition Benches, Mr Halfon.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I was not sure whether the fuel duty debate or the intervention from my hon. Friend Sheila Gilmore had exercised the power of persuasion that led Robert Halfon to cross the Floor and spend some time on the Opposition Benches, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I shall now return to the subject of the amendments, which are fairly simple and straightforward.

Amendments 1 and 2 would remove the cut in the top tax rate for people earning more than £150,000 a year, and amendment 23 would prevent the abolition of the age-related allowance that would increase the tax on millions of older people—the so-called granny tax. As we said in the earlier debate, the amendments are based on the straightforward principle that when times are tough and there is less money around, we must ensure that the burden of deficit reduction is fairly shared. That theme of fairness will be a feature of the contributions of Labour Members this evening.

As I said at the outset, however, the Government have chosen to cut taxes for the richest 1% of the population, and that tax cut is worth £40,000 to those who earn more than £1 million a year. At the same time, they are raising the taxes of 4.4 million pensioners by, in some instances, hundreds of pounds a year. Most of those pensioners are living on less than the average taxpayer.

Photo of Alan Reid Alan Reid Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute

Did not the Budget also raise the personal allowance for income tax by a record amount, thus cutting the tax for many people and taking many out of it altogether?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but many people will be about £511 a year worse off. Many, particularly those on the lowest incomes, will not benefit from the rise in the income tax threshold, and a large proportion will be part-time workers who cannot work for the extra hours that they have been told will enable them to continue to qualify for tax credits.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

Does the hon. Lady not welcome the fact that 2 million will be taken out of tax altogether, and that most basic rate taxpayers will be better off to the tune of, I believe, £220?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

The problem is that the Government are giving with one hand and taking away with another. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, many people will be £511 a year worse off. That may not seem a lot of money to one of the millionaires who will benefit from that £40,000, but it will make a big difference to a low-paid worker who is struggling to make ends meet and is feeling the pinch because of rising prices for food and other commodities.

Photo of Julie Hilling Julie Hilling Labour, Bolton West

Not only have the Government cut the rate of tax at the top—admittedly there is a welcome relief for people near the bottom, although of course those at the very bottom will not benefit at all—but the squeezed middle are being hammered in all directions. Because the threshold at which people will start to pay the higher rate has fallen, more people will be dragged into it, and people are also being affected by the tax credit and child benefit measures.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

That is absolutely true. As I said earlier, that is exactly what happens to those who cannot work for the extra hours that would increase their working time to the 24 hours that would entitle them to maintain their working tax credit. These are people who want to work and pay their way—they want to do the right thing—but for some reason the Government have chosen to clobber them the hardest at the same time as giving millionaires a tax break. That makes no sense to me, although Government Members may say that it is a point of principle.

A commentator—I think that it was Fraser Nelson of The Spectator—recently suggested that the best definition of “Osbornism”, if there can be such a definition, had been provided by Groucho Marx:

“These are my principles. And if you don’t like them—well, I have others.”

I hope that the Government have received the message loud and clear from the Opposition and from the British public. We do not like the principles that are at the heart of the Government’s economic policy. We do not like, or accept, the principle of asking millions to pay more so that millionaires can pay less. That is why we are giving the Government the opportunity to put their well-practised U-turning skills to good use once again.

Photo of Jim Cunningham Jim Cunningham Labour, Coventry South

Should they not go further than that? Should we not deal with the amendment to existing legislation allowing the use of foreign countries as tax havens to avoid paying the debts of the developing countries, which can cost £4 billion a year?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

My hon. Friend has made a good point. We will have an opportunity to discuss that subject in more detail tomorrow.

The Government once made much of their commitment to fiscal responsibility. Deficit reduction was to be their defining mission. Today, however, that task has been made even harder by the failure of their own economic plans, which involve £150 billion of extra borrowing. Their pledge to clear the deficit by the end of this Parliament has been blown to pieces, yet they still find the money for a tax giveaway to the top 1%.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to comment on that in his intervention.

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

Am I right in thinking that the impact of amendment 1 would be to take away the 45p rate and leave the highest rate at 40p, thus in effect giving a double tax cut? Can the hon. Lady explain the technicalities of how her amendment works?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I am a relative newcomer to this place, and I sometimes find its procedures and conventions bemusing. I have learned from my time in the parliamentary process, however, to take advice from the Clerks and others who know about drafting legislation, and that is what we did in respect of these amendments.

The Minister will no doubt protest that the higher rate was not raising any money, but the Government’s attempts at justification have not withstood the scrutiny that has been undertaken. The Office for Budget Responsibility, for example, says that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ estimates of the reduced tax avoidance that would result from the reduced rate are “highly uncertain”. They are based only on the first year’s yield from the new top rate, which was always expected to be artificially depressed by people’s ability to bring forward their income. No real basis is therefore offered for estimating the revenue-raising potential of the 50p rate. It is for that reason that the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that it is

“too soon to form a robust judgement.”

The claims that new funds would flood into the Treasury as a result of people relaxing or reversing their efforts to avoid paying the top rate have been shown to be notoriously speculative. Again, as the IFS explained,

“you’re first giving out £3bn to well off people who are paying 50p tax...you’re banking on a very, very uncertain amount of people changing their behaviour and paying more tax as a result of the fact that you’re taxing them less...there is a lot of uncertainty, a lot of risk with this estimate.”

A written answer provided by the Exchequer Secretary to my hon. Friend Rachel Reeves, the shadow Chief Secretary, on 19 June shows that in 2010-11 more than 73% of people earning over £250,000 were paying more than the top rate, as were more than 80% of people earning between £500,000 and £10 million, implying that many tens of thousands of people were paying the 50p tax rate of last year and are now in line for a very large tax cut if this measure comes into effect.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, if he would like to answer that point.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

I read the impact statement and the detailed IFS discussion of the so-called “uncertainty”. Its premise was that the avoidance would end because people would pay themselves out, regardless of how they had parked and deferred the revenue, and would therefore pay the tax at 50p. The problem is that people who have a personal service company—as so many Labour MPs and Labour supporters, including Ken Livingstone, seem to have—can defer for a very long time. They can pay themselves a beneficial loan and almost avoid tax altogether. That has also been a scandal in recent days. It is therefore not true to say people cannot continue deferring.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I will answer that point in more detail later. I am a little disappointed, however, as I thought the hon. Gentleman was going to make a different point. He seems to be suggesting that only people with a connection to Labour had been avoiding or evading tax, which is, of course, absolutely not the case. I hope Members across the House will ensure that at every stage those who are due to pay their taxes should pay them and should do so willingly and properly.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

What does my hon. Friend think about the fact that in Committee a Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, said that in his opinion the actions of a certain Ken Livingstone were in fact very sensible?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I do not wish to return to the lengthy debate that took place in Committee, but we did at various times have discussions about people doing things that were perfectly legal—and which, if they were so advised, might make perfect sense—but the question then arises as to whether they are morally or ethically the right things to do.

Photo of Julie Hilling Julie Hilling Labour, Bolton West 7:15 pm, 2nd July 2012

Was my hon. Friend as surprised as I was when the Government refused to release the tax details of their Front-Bench Members?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

Again, I do not want to focus on such issues at this time. I am sure that Government Front Benchers will want to take responsibility for their own actions.

I now want to address some points that Ministers may make about the Bill’s measures to reduce tax avoidance. The IFS has again been very busy and has made some extremely helpful and interesting points. It says this Budget compared poorly with Labour Budgets, which cut tax avoidance by more than £12 billion between 2002 and 2009—an average of more than £1.3 billion each year. This Budget, however, is estimated to have cut tax avoidance by just £800 million. Closing loopholes to prevent avoidance should be something that every Budget does, and we should not be required to compensate the very rich for the inconvenience.

The Government’s last line of defence will no doubt be that cutting tax for those who already have the most will unlock investment and kick-start economic growth, but that is pure ideology, with no evidence to back it up. The OBR documents accompanying the Budget show a continued pattern of the promised recovery of business investment being postponed. An 8% increase was promised for 2011, but the amount actually fell by 2%. A further 10% increase had been projected for this year, but the forecast is now less than 1%. The role of such investment in driving growth for future years has been significantly written down.

As for growth, again the OBR is clear. It states in box 3.1 on page 46 of its latest economic and fiscal outlook, which is headed “The economic effects of policy measures”, that the only policy with a measurable effect is the cut in corporation tax. It says that that will lead to an increase in GDP of

“0.1 per cent by the end of the forecast period.”

Beyond that, it says in the policy costings document:

“We have made no other material adjustments to the economy forecast as a result of Budget 2012 policy announcements.”

Therefore, according to the best evidence and the advice of independent experts, this is a tax change that will have no discernible impact on our economic prospects and, at a time of tight public finances and tough decisions on deficit reduction, it could cost billions of pounds, making it harder to deal with the deficit and necessitating harsher sacrifices for others in society.

The granny tax is addressed in another of our amendments, which would reverse the Chancellor’s shameful raid on pensioners’ incomes. We must give the Government a chance to make amends for what is essentially a broken promise, and for their shabby attempts to sneak this past Parliament and the public. We call on the Government to cancel this unfair measure for a number of reasons. First, the Government made a commitment as recently as last year that the age-related allowance would be uprated each year of this Parliament in line with the retail prices index. It is there in black and white on page 35 of the 2011 Red Book. Recently it has been reported that the Prime Minister is resistant to suggestions from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that he break pre-election promises on benefits for older people. Yet here is a promise made only last year that the Government have consigned to the dustbin. Instead of acknowledging this most disreputable of U-turns, the Chancellor actually sought to conceal it, dressing a crude tax grab up as a “simplification”.

According to the House of Commons Library, by far the majority of those being asked to pay more live on incomes that put them in the bottom half of taxpayers. The crucial point—again, I am sure that Government Members will have heard this—is that having a small personal or occupational pension of just £67 a week, or little more than £3,000 a year, would be enough to put someone in line to lose under this measure. We are talking about the people who did not earn big salaries in their working lifetimes but managed to save so that they could provide for themselves. These are more people doing the right thing; they avoided the means-tested benefits. So yet again I say: why are the Government so keen on policies that penalise the people who are doing the right thing? Why do they penalise the people who are trying to work—the low-paid, part-time workers who lose their tax credits—and the pensioners who have tried to avoid the means-tested benefits and have saved for their retirement and done the right thing?

There is no doubt that pensioners have been hit hard by this Government’s decisions: winter fuel allowance has been cut; pensions have been indexed to a lower measure of inflation; the increase in the state pension age for women has been brought forward; last year’s VAT rise added £275 to the cost faced by an average pensioner couple; and cuts have been made to services such as the NHS, social care and local transport—all the things that matter on a day-to-day basis for pensioners. So pensioners have been hit hard by this Government’s decisions and policies, yet with this Finance Bill the Government are coming back for more. They are not content with all those things and are coming back for more. In total, this measure will raise more than £3 billion pounds over the next five years.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Is it a coincidence that the tax cut to the rich costs £3 billion, which is exactly the same as the tax increase for elderly people in society?

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Shadow Minister (Treasury)

My hon. Friend makes a very valid point. That must be purely coincidental, because surely no Government would want to take that amount of money from pensioners simply to give it to the richest. Perhaps this Government would though; perhaps we have the same old Tories with the same old policies, yet again. The pensioners who have been hit hardest by this Government’s decisions are seeing them coming back for more. That £3 billion raised over the next five years is the biggest revenue raiser in the whole Budget, and it is coming from the pockets of pensioners with modest incomes. And it is all going towards what? Is it going to paying down the deficit? No. Is it going to help young people get back to work? No. Is it going to help the poorer pensioners? No. Instead, this money is being taken from millions of older people living on modest pensions and redistributed to a few thousand individuals with incomes of more than £150,000 a year. What an absolute disgrace: taking from the pensioners to give to those already on those high earnings.

The Government were said to be surprised by the anger this tax change has aroused. If that is the case—if they were surprised—that shows just how out of touch they are with the values, principles and priorities of the British people. At the time, the response of Age UK was very clear. It said that it was disappointing that the Budget

“offered a tax break of at least £10,000 to the very wealthy while penalising many pensioners on fairly modest incomes, who are already being squeezed”.

We could not have put it better ourselves. The chief executive of Saga said:

“Over the next five years, pensioners with an income of between £10,500 and £24,000 will be paying an extra £3 billion in tax while richer pensioners are left unaffected.”

The National Pensioners Convention said:

“We have been inundated by pensioners who are disgusted that those on around £11,000 a year will no longer get additional reductions in their tax—whilst those earning £150,000 or more will see their tax bills reduced.

This is seen by many as the last straw...Pensioners feel they are being asked to bail out the super rich—and it’s simply not fair.”

Pensioners are absolutely right to feel that way.

These amendments are a chance for the Government to rectify one of the most blatant injustices in this Budget. It simply cannot be right to ask millions of pensioners on modest incomes to pay more while finding a way for a few thousand millionaires to pay less. It is extremely hard to comprehend how the Government could ever have thought that this was fair, or that it would be acceptable to pensioners and to others who care about pensioners, but now they have an opportunity to put it right, and Members from all parts of the House have a chance to show where they stand. They can support these amendments and do the right thing by the people who did the right thing for themselves.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

It is a pleasure to follow the shadow Minister, who has set out such a partial view from the Labour party’s perspective on this Budget. I think there is a better approach: the more people we take out of tax, the better, as the administration cost is less and there is less hassle for people, particularly the least well-off. I want to see the personal allowance increased to £10,000 as soon as possible. Good progress was made in the last Budget, but the sooner we take the number to £10,000, by far and away the better. Nevertheless, I welcome the fact that most basic rate taxpayers will see an annual cash gain of £220, and I welcome the fact that this Budget takes 2 million people out of tax altogether. That is particularly important, particularly given that we all remember the fiasco over the 10p tax rate. The more we can look after the least well-off and take them out of the tax system, by far and away the better.

I was fascinated by the whole discussion about the 50p rate. We can see from Treasury figures that we are talking about £100 million. That figure is rubbished by the Labour party, which thinks the figure is completely wrong and cites an IFS report. Let me quote the relevant passage from the IFS report, which is where I think the Labour party draws its approach from. The IFS states:

“The worry for the Chancellor is that the estimate that cutting the top rate to 45% will only cost £100 million is particularly uncertain. It assumes a ‘no behaviour change’ cost of £3 billion offset by a behavioural change of £2.9 billion. The first number we know reasonably accurately; the second number is estimated with great uncertainty. Even if we knew the effect of introducing the 50p rate—which we don’t with any precision—responses may not be symmetric. Those who have got a taste for avoiding the 50p rate may continue to avoid the 45p rate (even if they wouldn’t have done so had the 50p rate never existed). The experiment with the 50p rate does not appear to have gone well.”

My first conclusion is that the IFS is saying that making the rate 50p in the first place was a complete and utter disaster. The second issue raised is the uncertainty over behavioural change. On that, I say that we have empirical evidence on what happens when the rate is reduced. I do not know whether everyone recalls this, but we used to have an income tax rate of about 80%. When that was reduced, first to 60%, there were great cries from the Labour party that it would cause a collapse in the revenues, but instead the revenues rose. Why was that? It was because fewer people avoided tax. The Government of the day then reduced the rate to 40p. Again there were great cries from the Labour party that that would let the rich off the hook, but what happened? The revenues rose. Why was that? It was because fewer people were as interested in avoiding tax and they paid up a fair share.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

There are other explanations for the increased tax take during the period in question. One was the general growth in the economy, which generated more income, whereas another was the greater degree of inequalities, which meant that although people were paying a lower rate of tax, the cash take was higher because their income had risen so much. People on very high incomes are still paying a relatively low rate of tax, however. If tax avoidance did not take place previously, why have there been so many examples of it?

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover 7:30 pm, 2nd July 2012

I absolutely agree. The 1980s were a time of great economic expansion; a great time of liberalising markets, sound money and sound economic policies that saw that massive expansion. It was also good that the ’80s saw a massive reduction in the rate of taxation, which spurred on growth.

What happened in the last decade was all built on debt. It was all a bubble and it ended in a massive shambles and a massive bust that has brought our country to its knees. We need growth. How will we get it? By reducing the rate. If we cut the rate, we will increase the take and encourage people to invest in UK plc. That is where we need to go.

Photo of Hywel Williams Hywel Williams Shadow PC Spokesperson (Education), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Work and Pensions), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Health), Shadow Spokesperson (Cabinet Office), Shadow PC Spokesperson (International Development)

Proponents of the Laffer curve, which is what the hon. Gentleman is talking about, often say that paying a higher rate of taxation is a matter of personal choice. Does he agree?

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

As I said, I think the Laffer curve is an interesting principle, but I prefer empirical curves and empirical results from experiments. We know from the ’80s that if the rate is cut, it increases the take. For me, the uncertainty is not about whether reducing the rate from 50p to 45p will cost the Exchequer £100 million, but about whether it will add £100 million or £200 million to the Exchequer as fewer people seek to avoid tax.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Does my hon. Friend think that cutting the rate to 40p or even 35p might have raised even more money? Would not that be a very good thing for the Government to do?

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

My hon. Friend tempts me, as ever. He knows that my view is that one should reduce the rate and clamp down heavily on tax avoidance. I respect the fact that he does not always share my views on tackling tax avoidance—I recall that in Committee he said that I was going to paint the cliffs of Dover red, so passionate was I that people should pay their fair share—but I do think that if we have lower, simpler taxes and a simple tax system, it will incentivise investment and encourage more economic growth. The argument for reducing the higher rate of tax, which was only a temporary increase in the first place—the Labour party seems to have forgotten that—was to get more investment in our economy and to encourage the entrepreneurs and wealth creators.

Photo of Jonathan Edwards Jonathan Edwards Shadow PC Spokesperson (Treasury), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Transport), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Culture, Media and Sport), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Wales), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Wales)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the major problem we have at the moment is that it is socially acceptable to avoid paying tax and that our job as politicians is to create a social climate where it is unacceptable not to pay what you are due?

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

I agree. There has been a climate in which it is somehow acceptable to avoid taxation and I made many speeches in Committee about how that culture is unacceptable and needs to change.

It is up to us to send a clear message, as Members of all parties, that tax avoidance is wrong. That was why I intervened on the shadow Minister earlier to say that the message sent by politicians who use personal service companies is deeply corrosive. They should all pay a fair share of taxation and should not try to avoid it in that way, because it sends the wrong message. In all fairness, I say that to members of my own party as much as to Labour members. It is not acceptable in the current age.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

The hon. Gentleman and I had some good discussions in Committee—I would not call them enjoyable, but they were good. Does he think it is fair to hit the grannies—to hit elderly people—with a £3 billion loss and at the same time to cut taxes for the richest people in the UK?

P

It would be well for Mr Lavery to remember that the term 'granny', does not equate with 'pensioner'. I was 'grannified' at the age of 40, which leaves 20+ years until becoming a pensioner.

Submitted by Pat Allen

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

I think it is fair to say that we are not cutting taxes yet, because the change would not come through to the next financial year. Hon. Members will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that that is the case. We must consider the Exchequer numbers, which show that the cost of the cut is very low. I think those numbers are wrong, as they have not taken into account the dynamic effects of the change, which will probably be tax accretive to the Exchequer when all is taken into account.

As for the issue of age-related allowances, the Government’s triple-lock guarantee will mean that the overwhelming majority of older people—in fact, all of them, I think—will be better off and there are no cash losers. Secondly, we are talking about the very richest of the oldest. We are not talking about the oppressed pensioner with no savings but about the richest of the oldest and, as I say, there will be no cash losers. Although it is uncomfortable for many people and has been uncomfortable for all of us, the Government have been doing the right thing by the elderly and have been looking after the least well-off elderly first of all. It is really important to protect them from the difficult economic times we have had.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

I ask the hon. Gentleman to correct the impression he gave. The age-related tax allowance does not go to the very richest pensioners; it is the group in the middle who are being squeezed by the proposal.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

The age-related tax allowances only kick in to benefit those pensioners who have a substantial income, or a more substantial income, in retirement. We are not talking about the very least well-off pensioners who are affected by grinding poverty, but about pensioners who are better off and who have savings and income. As I said, there are no cash losers and they have had a massive benefit from the pensions triple lock.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

When the hon. Gentleman says that there are no cash losers, does that mean that pensioners will not lose out?

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

That is my understanding, yes. Pensioners will not lose out, there will be no cash losers and no pensioners will be worse off in cash terms, As the hon. Gentleman well knows, we can have the argument about future rates of inflation and future rates of RPI, but one must also take into account the other side of the equation, as pensions and benefits for elderly people will rise in the same way and at the same time. Overall, we are not talking about a great difference; we are certainly looking after the least well-off of the elderly, and we have done so very well indeed. That is an important achievement of this Government. Pensioners have been better off under the Government and have been shielded from the austerity measures.

Let us look across the piece at what the Government have done. We have done the right thing to reduce taxation at the top level, which was meant to be temporary, to encourage investment in our economy and to encourage entrepreneurs. The Government need to take further action to deal with people who abuse personal service companies and other tax wheezes and to ensure that we have stronger measures against avoidance by individuals. We have seen enough of it in the newspapers, so I shall not go into individual cases because, as we know, that ends up in a spat about whether one likes Take That or late-night comedy shows. Nevertheless, it is right that we should ensure that individuals cannot play the system and that the law should be changed. It is all very well for the Labour party to take the moral high ground on the issue of tax allowances, but Labour was asleep at the wheel for about a decade and failed to deal with tax avoidance in the individual and corporate spheres. That was completely wrong.

Photo of Kevin Brennan Kevin Brennan Shadow Minister (Education)

I would be more prepared to take that from the hon. Gentleman if I had not sat through Finance Bills when we were in government only to see that, time after time, his party tried to stop us closing loopholes that would stop tax avoidance.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

I was not there at those times, I did not sit through those Bills and I cannot comment. I am only a newish Member, elected in the 2010 general election, and I have personally been pretty consistent in making the case that we should not have tax avoidance and should be far more vigorous in tackling tax avoidance by individuals and by corporates. Corporate tax avoidance is particularly important, but it is not on the subject of this debate, so I shall move on quickly before you call me to order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

There is an issue and we need to tackle it. Overall, I want the allowances for the least well-off to be higher so that we take more of them out of tax. I think the Government have taken the right Budget decision on the higher rate numbers and have take a difficult but principled decision on age-related allowances. The Government have struck the right Budget balance.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

“No cash losers”: I must say that I think that those are the most disingenuous words that I have heard in this Chamber for a great many years. I remember that in the Budget the Chancellor was not particularly keen to draw the House’s attention to this change.

In the Budget, the Chancellor glossed over the whole issue of the granny tax very quickly indeed, yet only a year before, he came to the Dispatch Box on Budget day and said that he would not hide anything—he would tell it like it was. He would tell the bad with the good. That was just a year before, but in this year’s Budget, he glossed over the granny tax altogether.

“No net losers”—how accurate is that if we look at the total picture for pensioners? For existing pensioners, the age-related allowance will be frozen. It is interesting that the year before, it was not the Chancellor, but the Prime Minister, no less, who promised that the allowance would increase in line with the retail prices index. “No net losers”—those who believed the Prime Minister’s promise to pensioners might be excused for feeling that that they were losers under the change. That is what happens. People listen to what the Prime Minister says, and make their financial plans on the basis of it: “The Prime Minister promised me, so of course I can expect to have that.” Well, it did not happen, and I think that is disingenuous.

We heard in this Chamber that there are no net losers, but what about people who are about to become pensioners? Are they net losers? They certainly expected an age-related allowance, but they find that, for them, it is not frozen, but cut. We can stand here and call black white, but it is incumbent on us not to take the public for fools, and I am afraid that the speech from Charlie Elphicke did that. I regret that, because he is not a disingenuous character—he is quite a lovable character in this House—but to say what he did is to treat people with contempt. It is treating them as though they do not understand their own affairs, when it is their own affairs—their own pennies, in many cases—that we are talking about. That hits hard.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Is it not a fact that 4.4 million pensioners will lose roughly £83 a year from next year, and that people who turn 65 next year could lose up to £322 a year? That implies that it is disingenuous to suggest that people are not losing out—

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. “Disingenuous” is not a word that we should use. I know that it is meant to be an appropriate term, but it is not the sort of parliamentary language that we accept. I am sure that we will not be using it again.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

I apologise to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to the hon. Member for Dover, if that is unparliamentary language.

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. In fairness, Mr Gardiner, you said that you did not think that Charlie Elphickewas disingenuous. We were all right up to that point.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I absolutely recognise the figures that my hon. Friend Ian Lavery laid before the House, and of course I think that they are accurate. He is right to say that we are talking about a cut—a cut in what people were, with legitimacy, expecting. That is the point. It was legitimate for somebody coming up to pensionable age to expect that their retirement could be based on the figures that they were using. They had a promise from the Prime Minister that that would be the case. That promise was not honoured, and they have experienced real hardship as a result.

I want to focus on one other aspect of the debate: people’s behaviour at different rates of taxation. Let me be clear that I do not, in principle, want a 50p rate of tax to continue in place in perpetuity. Indeed, the Labour party does not want that, as was made very clear when my right hon. Friend Mr Darling, as Chancellor, introduced the tax before the 2010 election. He made it quite clear that we felt it was necessary in the short term, but would ultimately wish to get rid of it. There is no desire on the Labour Benches to see a 50p tax rate imposed for ever more.

However, as for the idea that one year was a sufficient period in which to be able to assess the revenue take for the Treasury, we know that, always, in the first year of a new rate of tax, people adjust. They adjust where, in tax years, they put their income. They can carry over, and use the degree of arbitrage between tax years to make sure that the full impact of the new tax level does not hit them. To have used the figures for that one year as the basis for any assertion of what the tax take would be in the long run was clearly—I will not say “disingenuous”, because that would not be appropriate—mistaken. It was a mistake, because it was only a partial view. That is clearly the point. A shift in policy is being justified on the basis of imperfect information.

Let us look more carefully at the argument that if we reduce the percentage of tax, the net revenue to the Exchequer will rise. The hon. Member for Dover spoke about days gone by, when there was a drop in taxation levels from 80% to 60%, and from 60% to 40%. He said that we then saw net revenue to the Exchequer increase. Of course, he did not talk about the growth in national wealth and in the economy at the time, or say what part of the revenue take for the Exchequer was a result of that growth. Those are figures that he was not prepared to give the House, or perhaps he did not know them. I do not know them either, but a significant element of the increase in revenue would be covered by growth in the economy, if one included that in the calculation.

Let us follow the logic of the argument made by the hon. Member for Dover. He was ably supported by Jacob Rees-Mogg, his colleague on the far, far end of the Benches, who said, “Why stop at 40%? Why not go to 30% or 20%?”

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

From a more-than-sedentary, almost recumbent position, he says, “Hear, hear! Let’s go to 20%!” Does he really think that there is not a limiting point at which the argument tips? Does he really think that there is not a point below which, instead of more revenue coming into the Exchequer, there is a dramatic loss of revenue? Of course there is.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I do indeed think that there is a point at which revenue would drop off, if rates got low, and the Laffer curve shows such a point. However, as a general point, I think that the lower the rates are, consistent with raising the revenue that is needed, the better, and that we have not tested the argument properly to see how low we could go.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

Well, there we are: the Great British public are being treated to an experiment. “We want to test how far the Laffer curve theory can go.” Is that really the Government’s policy? Is it really their policy to see how low they can get tax before the economy collapses?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way once again. Sadly, I am not Her Majesty’s Government. He must address his comments to those on the Treasury Bench, rather than to me.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

I am sure that it is only a matter of time. In so far as the hon. Gentleman seeks to speak for his party—

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

I do not want to see dissent break out on the Government Benches. No fighting amongst yourselves, please, gentlemen. These are serious matters. They cannot be treated as an experiment because people suffer.

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is a courteous and jolly fellow. Let me help him by digging him out of the hole that he is rapidly getting himself into in his exchanges with my hon. Friend Jacob Rees-Mogg. The point that we are making is simple: reducing the top rate will not change the income and revenue numbers significantly, but it sends a message to wealth creators that their investment is encouraged and will help to grow the economy.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

The hon. Gentleman has already said once in the debate that he does not believe the Treasury’s figures. He has now reinforced that. The Treasury has made the calculations. He can choose to say, on a personal level, “I think the Red Book is a load of tosh,” but he cannot say that that is the Government’s position. The Government’s position is that the measure will cost £3 billion a year. [Hon. Members: “No, it is not.”] The Government cannot get out of this one. They say that it will cost money. That money will be taken away from some of the poorest people in our society to pay for it.

That is what people find so distasteful about the way the Government are behaving. They are taking away from some of the poorest in our society, yet feel that it is so important to send that signal out to some of the wealthiest. The people who are being excoriated in the public conversations around the country for what they have done and what they continue to do to our economy—those are the people who will benefit, and it is the poor in our constituencies who will suffer.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

Did my hon. Friend spot the illogicality in the position of Charlie Elphicke, who made an impassioned claim to be a scourge of tax avoiders, but is in effect endorsing tax avoidance by arguing that we have to reduce the rate of tax because so many people are trying to avoid it? Would it not be better to look at ways of preventing people from avoiding tax?

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

My hon. Friend, yet again, makes an excellent point. There is an implicit acceptance that people will try to avoid tax, and that therefore it is better to reduce the level of taxation so that there is not the same level of avoidance.

Most of my constituents listening to this debate and to the debate that has been going on since the Budget think the Government do not understand what people are going through, what they are feeling and just how difficult it is for some of them to make ends meet. They do not understand that precisely because of the sort of signals the hon. Member for Dover just mentioned. The Government consider it more important to make those signals to the wealthy. They think it is more important to focus on what they understand about their involvement in society, and they do not give the same attention to getting those messages to the poor in society.

What the Government have done in the Budget is to say, “If you are poor, we know that the best thing for you is to cut your benefits to make sure that you work harder, and if you are rich, we know that the best thing for you is to cut your tax so that you work harder.” People look at that and say, “This doesn’t make sense. It’s one law for the rich and another law for the poor.”

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

Yes, we do understand, and I in particular understand because my constituency is one of the most deprived in the south-east. The economic numbers are much more like those of a constituency much further to the north of England than the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. We do understand, and we also understand that wages have stagnated since about 2004, on the hon. Gentleman’s Government’s watch. This is not a new problem. We understand that, which is why we need to reduce the top rate of tax to encourage the job creators to create the jobs and the money that will give my constituents more prosperity.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

The hon. Gentleman talks about the way in which wages have broadly stagnated. We are now seeing wages going down and jobs being lost, and we are back in recession. He should look at the promises of his Government in that first Budget. The promises, commitments and assertions were that the measures in it would pull us out of the problems that we were in and get the economy back on track. They would deliver growth and prosperity, but they have not. He will remember, because he is an honest fellow, to use his word, that at the time, on the Opposition Benches, people were saying,

“No, this will lead to a double-dip recession.” All those on the Government Benches told us in unison that we were wrong and that the Budget would pull us through the problems.

The electorate look at that, see the analysis, see what steps were taken and ask, “Who was right?” They know, because we are back in double-dip recession, that the Government got it wrong. We are at a point where there is £150 billion extra borrowing, the largest single increase year on year in the UK’s history.

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. I know the hon. Gentleman is painting the big picture, but we need to come back to the relevance of income tax. We have discussed personal allowances. I know he will come back to the point.

Photo of Barry Gardiner Barry Gardiner Labour, Brent North

I accept your ruling, of course, Mr Deputy Speaker, and you are right. We have strayed wide of the initial focus of the amendment. It was not my intention. All I can say in mitigation is that I was led down the path by the interventions that I took.

Photo of Robert Syms Robert Syms Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee, Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee

I welcome this debate because the decisions that we take on tax rates are critical. We have had a slightly more general debate than I expected. Opposition Front Benchers particularly presume that the Government can somehow control events. However, there is a big wide world out there and anybody watching television or watching what had happened in the eurozone knows that there is a limit to what any Government can do in the present circumstances, when confidence is low, countries are being bailed out and businesses, even those with money, are not investing as rapidly as one would like. All the Government can do within the global context is try to make the best decisions they can on the information that they have. We have a plan, which I think is a good plan, and by and large we are sticking to it. The deficit has come down by 25%. That is a start and we need to do more.

On the subject of income tax rates, I think we tax people at far too small a salary. We do not increase incentives to work. A key point of the coalition programme is to up the basic allowances to make work pay. We all know—I am sure even Barry Gardiner knows—that the benefits system can be a big disincentive to people taking jobs. People act rationally, and if they are not going to be much better off or if they are going to lose money, they will not take work. A reform of benefits is needed, with the universal credit coming in, and we have to up the income tax allowances for those at a lower pay level in order to increase incentives for people to take jobs. Hopefully that will get more people into work over a period of time.

All the evidence suggests that work is good for people. It is better for their health, including their mental health, and it is a better way to bring up a family, and of course those in work have a better chance of gaining skills, reskilling and getting on in life. That is the key point about what the coalition Government are trying to do. Therefore, I commend them for what they have done to take many millions of people out of income tax and hope that they continue to make progress in that area so that incentives to work increase over the next few years.

We have always had an age-related allowance for pensioners that is somewhat different from those for ordinary taxpayers, but one has to ask why that is the case. It is easy for politicians to go along with a system that has been in place for several years, but in an environment in which the Government are pushing up allowances, hopefully to £10,000 and beyond, at some point soon the basic allowance will overtake the age-related allowance. From a tax simplification point of view, that is sensible. People talk about pensioners, but they are not one homogenous group; they include poor people and rich people. In fact, many of my constituents have benefited from buying their homes and the post-war inflation, and the evidence from surveys suggests that the people struggling the most are actually young families with children.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck 8:00 pm, 2nd July 2012

The hon. Gentleman is very kind to give way. Does he agree with hitting pensioners hard with the £3 billion tax increase?

Photo of Robert Syms Robert Syms Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee, Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee

About a quarter of my constituents are pensioners, but I have received only three or four e-mails on this subject. It is not a major issue in Poole, where most of my constituents pay tax. I do not think that it is the big issue that Opposition Members claim it is. It depends on how fast the basic allowance for all taxpayers overtakes the age-related allowance, which I presume is logically what the Government want it to do. Of course, it also depends on the level of inflation. If we freeze the allowance and have higher inflation, it will be eroded more quickly than if we have lower inflation. Thankfully, one of the good points about the past few months is that inflation is starting to crash back down towards 2%, and the sooner we reach that rate, the better.

If we look at what the Government have promised in their triple lock for pensioners—the increase in the basic state pension of over 5%—along with the winter fuel allowance, which we continue to pay, and free bus travel, we will see that their priority has been to support pensioners. We have been criticised over the reduction in the winter fuel allowance, but I point out that the previous Government put it up for the election year but made no budget provision for the year after, and we are faced with some very difficult problems. Unfortunately, it is an expensive item and the Government have been unable to keep it at the level it was for one year, but on the whole we have kept it at the level it was for most years at the end of the previous Government’s time in office, and that is a boon to many pensioners. I think that what the Government are doing on the age-related allowance is probably the right thing to do.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

I am surprised to hear that only three or four of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents have contacted him on that point—I wish him good luck on that. Various figures have been bandied about and I wonder whether he disputes them. It has been suggested that 4.4 million pensioners will lose up to £83 a year and those turning 65 next year could lose up to £322. Does he support that?

Photo of Robert Syms Robert Syms Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee, Chair, Regulatory Reform Committee

I am not sure that that is a massive loss of income. The most recent issue we debated was the 3p cut on fuel, which will make more of a difference to pensioners in my constituency than this minor change in tax allowances. I think that the Government’s policy towards pensioners is fine.

Let me turn to the top rate of tax. We all know that there is a lot of politics in this. The rate was 40p under the previous Government, except for the last 37 days they were in office, so the 50p rate was one of the wonderful inheritances from them. Clearly, if we want to stop people looking to avoid paying tax, we have to keep a competitive rate. At 40p we have a rate that was competitive with many western European countries, but at 50p we do not. If we have a country without exchange controls, a very mobile population, as we do, and people with highly tradable skills, there is a danger that if we start to put up the rates we will lose revenue and people will go abroad. As my hon. Friend Charlie Elphicke said, having had a 50p rate which meant people started looking at how to avoid taxation, that might stay in the system for some time. I welcome what the Government have done by reducing the higher tax rate to 45p. I think that it is a pity they delayed it, because I suspect that the impact will be to reduce income tax take for the current year, but when the rate drops to 45p for the year after, we will see an increase in the income tax yield.

It is important to give a message. I was in this House when the previous Government put up income tax. In one of his last speeches from the Government Back Benches, Stephen Byers said that he very much regretted that the Labour party had decided to do that. If all the evidence suggests that that has not raised very much this year, it seems to me that it is being done for ideological reasons, rather than practical, economic ones. If nothing else we ought to be practical in how we do things. Therefore, the Government’s reducing the top rate, as a start, is the right thing to do which will have a beneficial effect in the long term. But let us not forget that the allowances for the lower paid have gone up this year. The top rate of tax will come down next year, by which time we will have had another Budget in which I hope the Government will have made more progress on assisting some of those on lower pay and taking more people out of the tax net.

The one thing that can be said about the Government is that their thinking is joined up. We have welfare reform, we are pushing up the tax allowances to increase work incentives, and we are dealing with a whole range of tax rates, including trying to make corporation tax more competitive, and I think that that will make us a much more competitive country in the world. We look like an island of stability, certainly compared with the eurozone countries. Let us hope that they sort out their problems so that we can start selling them our excellent goods, but let us face the fact that we live in a competitive world and unless our taxes are competitive we will not be able to generate the wealth to pay for all the things we want: health, schools, foreign aid, defence and all the things we need to do. I think that the Government are on the right track. Clearly, it is a very bumpy economic environment, certainly rather bumpier than we might have thought it would be when we came into office, but provided we have leadership and vision, we will get through.

Photo of Jonathan Edwards Jonathan Edwards Shadow PC Spokesperson (Treasury), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Transport), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Communities and Local Government), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Culture, Media and Sport), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Wales), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Wales)

It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate. It has been very interesting listening to the debate on income tax for the 2013-14 financial year. Hon. Members already know the position of the Plaid-SNP-Green group; we were among the handful of Members who voted against the inclusion of the new 45% additional rate in the founding principles of the Bill at the conclusion of the Budget debate earlier this year. Indeed, the official Opposition seemed to miss that debate, with the exception of two Labour Members, the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Bolsover (Mr Skinner). I also tabled amendments in Committee, which were supported at the time by the official Opposition, including some that they have chosen to table for this evening’s debate, which naturally I will support if they decide to push them to a vote later.

Much of the debate on Second Reading and in Committee focused on differing interpretations of, and often selective quotations from, a series of reports. Hon. Members attempted to argue that their party’s interpretation of the statistics was most valid, and we heard some of that again this evening. They were essentially making economic arguments about taxation—about the Government’s claim that the loss of tax revenue from shifting the 50% additional tax rate to 45% would be compensated for by the stimulus it would provide to the wider economy, and that given the amount of forestalling and income shifting that the 50% rate has apparently generated, we would be better off in future and, ultimately, more tax would be paid. That is the thrust of the argument.

I simply do not buy the idea that a tax cut will make those avoiding the 50% rate choose to contribute to society by paying at the 45% rate. What the Treasury should be doing, rather than giving a tax cut to those earning in excess of £3,000 a week, which is almost twice the average income in two months for most of my constituents, is closing down all the clearly aggressive tax avoidance schemes, some of which have been highlighted in recent weeks, and ending the tax havens that provide a nice bolthole for those who wish to hide their income.

For my party, however, the issue of taxation is one of principle. We believe that people should be proud to pay taxes and contribute to society. It should not be a game in which those who can afford to pay an accountant pay less and then consider it a triumph or a success. As I said during a debate in Committee, the Scandinavian model of taxation and social security is in my party’s DNA. Some might say that that is the difference between ourselves and the Labour party, which announced the introduction of the additional rate as a temporary measure, bringing it in literally weeks before the party left government. Where we believe that the additional rate is part and parcel of contributions to society, Labour remains unclear how long the now official Opposition intended to continue the additional rate.

This tax cut for the mega-rich leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Public sector workers in my constituency face pension changes, meaning that they have to pay more in, that they get less out and that they work longer—that is, those who still have their jobs after spending several years with pay freezes and the threat of regional pay dangling over them. Living standards for private sector workers in my constituency are being squeezed, and many families struggling to make ends meet are being stigmatised by the Government, while the disabled and the vulnerable face tribunals to decide whether their pain is real. It is not acceptable that we are in a society which tells those at the bottom that they have a culture of entitlement, while those at the top get huge and unnecessary tax cuts. Why do we think that we can cut the poor’s income to make them work harder, but incentivise the rich through tax cuts? That is perverse thinking.

We support the aim of amendment 3, which would give those public sector workers earning less than £21,000 who have had their pay frozen a £250 tax rebate. They deserve it, as do many private sector workers who have lost out because of the Treasury’s austerity economics.

We support also amendment 1, tabled by the official Opposition, despite its effect of wiping out the additional rate altogether for 2013-14. Given their failure to vote on the inclusion of the 2013-14 rate in the Bill at the time of the Budget, we recognise that their intent is to show their belated support for maintaining current income tax rates. If the amendment is successful, we expect the Government to reinstate the top rate at 50%.

With last week’s figures confirming that the double-dip recession is deeper than first thought, and with the cuts now beginning to feed their way through the system, giving a tax cut to the mega-rich is a funny way of showing that we are all in this together.

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

It is a pleasure to follow Jonathan Edwards. I shall make a few brief remarks on various subjects in the Bill, starting with the granny tax, which I also spoke about on either Second Reading or during the Budget debate—we seem to have been debating it for a long time, particularly those of us who have done a few weeks in Committee on some of these topics.

I was one of those who heard the Budget, heard the Chancellor briefly mention what became known as the granny tax and did realise what it was likely to mean. I was not one of those, like Rachel Reeves, who claimed that the Chancellor had hidden it in his speech; it was clearly there.

Those of us who, in our short time as Members, have argued that we need to simplify our tax regime face a problem when one way suggested by the Office of Tax Simplification is this very idea. To be fair to the OTS, it did not envisage its idea being introduced quite so quickly. I suspect that generally it would be quite keen to have its ideas legislated on in a matter of weeks, but on this one it intended there to be further consultation and deliberation. It was, nevertheless, one idea that it came up with as a way of removing one of the regime’s complexities, whereby an additional allowance has to be claimed, the policy justification for which was determined a long time ago. It is perfectly reasonable for the Government to revisit it and to wonder whether, of all the groups in society who need such extra help, pensioners earning more than the state pension are one of them.

Those people who have done the right thing and saved, and who now have a little private pension on top of their state pension, are generally the ones in whom we want to encourage pension-saving behaviour, but the basic personal allowance is rapidly heading towards the £10,000 target in the coalition agreement, and the benefit of that higher personal allowance has to be clawed back. We are seeing a complexity with a reducing benefit, and we are perfectly entitled to want to understand the policy justification for it when we spend the limited amount of money that we have. It is not, therefore, an unreasonable or illogical proposal for the Government to bring forward; there was a year’s notice, and there is a chance for consultation to consider its impact.

We might prefer consultation then legislation, rather than legislation then consultation, but we still have time to consider the issue. We are struggling for money to balance the budget. We heard in the previous debate about a balanced budget and the Opposition being concerned that the U-turns on VAT and on fuel duty are somehow unbalancing it, but they now seem to want us to do a U-turn that would seriously unbalance next year’s budget.

I am not sure where the term “balancing” comes from. In my years as an accountant, we used to think that a balanced budget was one in which someone’s income equalled their expenditure, not one in which their expenditure exceeded their income by about £90 billion, which is what this year’s Budget shows. When we talk of a balanced budget, what we really mean is that we have a borrowing number that makes the other two numbers agree.

On that basis, I will vote for the tax measure, although it is very difficult to sell and we all know the perils of upsetting people of that generation in our constituencies, but we have to go out there and say, “We have to take tough measures”; we cannot please everybody.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck 8:15 pm, 2nd July 2012

The hon. Gentleman recognises that we cannot please everybody, but does he agree that cutting taxes for the rich pleases the rich, while the ones who will be less pleased are pensioners, having £83 a week off taken off them, and people who turn 65 next year, losing £322?

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

I am sure that people who benefit from a tax cut will be pleased and those who lose out from a tax change will not be, so I guess I can agree with most of that, but it will be interesting to see in the Lobby later whether the hon. Gentleman votes for his party’s amendment, which would mean the House passing the Bill after abolishing the 45p rate completely and reducing it to a 40p rate.

It is all right saying, “Perhaps we can do that and perhaps the Government will do something different in future,” but we are legislating in Parliament, and if we were to vote for the amendment and remove the 45p rate, it would not actually exist, and I am not sure that those Members who would rather the provision read “50p” than “45p” could in all conscience vote for that. I clearly will not vote for the amendment, because it would be the wrong measure at this time; I will vote for there to be a 45p rate in next year’s tax regime.

When I debate these things, I could take a narrow constituency view. I suspect that very few of my constituents pay the 50p tax rate, as I have many pensioners who are not that well-off and will be adversely impacted by the granny tax, so from a political and personal view I could happily oppose the tax cut and the granny tax, too, but we have to get our economy into sensible working order.

Photo of Meg Hillier Meg Hillier Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch

The hon. Gentleman talks about the over-65s, saying that this is all very fair and things will balance out over time. Does he not understand that someone over 65 is likely to be on a fixed income and £323 is therefore considerably more important, whereas if someone earns higher amounts and is taxed at 50%, 45%, 40% or anything in between, whatever it may be, they have the capacity to earn more? Once they retire, it is the fixed nature of their income that makes the Chancellor’s decision so invidious.

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

I am grateful for the intervention, and of course understand that pensioners living off their savings have suffered terribly during the recession, starting with the raid on private pensions when Labour first came into office, all the way through to the terrible impact of the loss of interest income on savings. I totally accept that that is clearly an issue, but to return to the 45p or 50p rates we ought to be completely accurate. With the 2p national insurance charge, which comes in when someone normally starts paying NI, and which will remain, those rates are 52p or 47p. We should be careful on a matter of principle. I am not sure how many people out there would want to work if the money for more than half an hour of every hour that they worked was not for them but for the taxman. That is what that effective 52p rate does; it means that a person is probably not working for themselves for 31 minutes of every hour.

I am not sure that that is a real incentive for those who have a lot of money. They do not need to carry on working; they could retire to their yachts and sail around the Mediterranean. We want them to come back, invest in another business, have another go and employ some more people. We want that investment to come into the country. If a person is keeping less than half the money they earn, there is a real psychological impact. That is why it is right to bring the rate down.

We are having a long political debate about what was meant to be a temporary tax. The previous Government never had it in place when they were in power; it was set up as a political stunt for the election. It was not expected to raise significant amounts of money. It was there not for an economic purpose, but a political one. It was right for us to say that at a time when we need to get activity going and to attract investment into the country, we need to encourage those who have a choice whether they carry on working and generating wealth or not, to carry on working.

It is right for us to bring the tax rate down. I would have thought that it was better just to do it rather than wait a year, but there are many good economic reasons why we had to wait for that length of time. The fact is that if tax rates are too high, people get much more keen on avoiding tax.

When I was relatively new in my accountancy career, the then Chancellor in effect reduced the capital gains tax rate to 10% tax on the sale of a business asset. The place where I worked then had made lots of money advising people on how to reduce their capital gains tax liabilities when they retired from their businesses. When the rate went down at a stroke overnight from 40% to 10%, that meant that no one was interested in that kind of tax planning; they were perfectly happy to pay what they thought was a reasonable tax bill. But the reverse effect also applies—if the rates go up to a level that people are not happy to pay, they will start to use ingenious methods to avoid the taxes.

Photo of Gloria De Piero Gloria De Piero Shadow Minister (Home Affairs)

The hon. Gentleman is speaking as though his party had always supported the abolition of the 50p tax. However, a couple of months before the Budget, the former Energy Secretary,

Chris Huhne, was saying that the 50p tax was here to stay. He told the BBC:

“I think we’ve won that argument.”

What happened?

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

I guess it is not for me to explain the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. He was clearly misinformed.

However, we have seen that drift towards tax avoidance. I was saying that there was an easy way to avoid paying UK tax—not to be working in the UK at all. People can choose whether to come here or stay here; no complicated avoidance is necessary if they are not here at all. We want to attract the most skilled and able here to earn their money.

My hon. Friend Charlie Elphicke was generous in not having a go at some of the high-profile individuals who have been caught avoiding their taxes. People earning very good livings in this country should pay the tax that Parliament tells them they have to pay—there is no excuse for using complicated routes through Isle of Man or Channel Islands trusts. If they are taking money from hard-working people who go to their concerts, comedy shows or football matches, it is outrageous for them to route it through the Isle of Man. I am not sure that I would choose to listen to their concerts or their jokes.

We should send a strong message that such behaviour is unacceptable. If those people are now feeling a little guilty and think that they have made a terrible error of judgment, it is quite simple—they can re-file their tax returns from recent years, declare all that income and pay tax on it. As Gary Barlow might think, “It only takes a minute” to do that—[Interruption.] We had to get some in. Then that money would be “Back for good”, wouldn’t it? It would certainly be one of our “Greatest day”s. I only “Pray” that he would do that—it would certainly be magic if he did. Those are all the Take That songs that I can remember, so I will not carry on.

The important point is that if we push tax rates up too high, revenues will start to go down and people will start engaging in the behaviour we want to crack down on. The Government are cracking down on it and doing everything they can, but there is a limit to how far ahead they can stay. New things will always come along. Fundamentally, we cannot stop people leaving the country.

Labour Members generally think that Conservative Members cite the Laffer curve; we have heard mention of calculations on fag packets and so on. The theory that revenue falls if tax rates are too high is a lot older than the Laffer curve. I had the pleasure of studying Mr Ibn Khaldun, a Muslim philosopher from the 14th century, who wrote an extensive commentary on what happens with tax rates. When they start low, they generate lots of economic activity. Gradually the Government like the idea of spending money, taxes go up and then the economy fails. If our debate was not programmed tonight, I could read out pages of those quotes, to prove that Mr Laffer’s theories are not new, but I shall resist. The theory is not new; it is an entirely understandable and accurate theory: if tax rates are too high, we end up losing revenue.

Another amendment under discussion would give a £250 tax cut to a public sector worker who had not had their £250 pay rise for the last two years. I am not convinced by that. It would be very generous; presumably, if they had had the pay rise, they would have to have paid tax on it, so they would not have had the full benefit of the £250. The idea is probably tempting, but I will not be able to vote for it.

Photo of Meg Hillier Meg Hillier Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch

I do not want to broaden the debate too much, but I say at the outset that we should get back to the basics. Why is it important that people pay tax? I strongly believe that it is important for people to have a stake in society and that paying tax is a big part of that. I may be out of step with a number of Members—including, possibly, my party’s Front Benchers—in believing that the rush to increase the personal allowance and take lots of people out of tax is not necessarily, on its own, a good move. Taking people out of the tax system altogether denies them responsibility for a number of issues to do with public spending and takes away the accountability that we, as elected Members, should have in helping to set those policies.

Photo of Nigel Mills Nigel Mills Conservative, Amber Valley

I agree with the hon. Lady, but does she note that we are not taking people out of national insurance? All those people are still paying the tax most closely associated with the main public spending items.

Photo of Meg Hillier Meg Hillier Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman has managed to conflate tax and national insurance; perhaps he has given away what the Government’s thinking really is.

I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee which has been looking closely at the sometimes interesting tax arrangements of some individuals. We recently went on a study visit and discussed some of the international issues to do with how tax is dealt with. The UK’s is a complicated system and we are not alone in that. This means that, in the corporate world, corporate lawyers can run rings around HMRC and that highly paid lawyers can find ways for some high-worth individuals to work in a more tax-efficient way, to put it politely, and actively to avoid tax—sometimes worse. To a degree, New Zealand has simplified its tax system, although it is difficult to know from a distance how successful that is for people.

If the increase in allowance were genuinely linked to a simplification of the system, I would be much more supportive of it, but it has the feeling of being rather piecemeal, a bit joined together. It is like a dodgy second-hand car—the front bit is welded to the back bit. The coalition feels a bit like that; sometimes I am not entirely sure whether the Deputy Prime Minister or the Prime Minister is at the front or back at any particular time. There is a danger that we are seeing the increase in the personal allowance as a sticking plaster for one element of the coalition, while the cut in the 50p tax rate, which, as my hon. Friend Gloria De Piero pointed out, was opposed by the Liberal Democrat half of the coalition—she quoted the former Energy Secretary—is a sop to the other side. We almost have two unjoined-up bits of the system.Nigel Mills talked about tax simplification. If that is the mission, then let us see the overall plan for it, but all we hear about is the increase in personal allowances. I do not sense that there is a big idea, and that is a real worry.

Let me turn to the 50p tax rate cut. Some 300,000 taxpayers will gain £10,000 a year as a result of that policy. These are individuals who earn more than £150,000 a year. The Treasury says that it should do this because £2.9 billion will supposedly come back from the people who are currently avoiding tax. I am not sure that that stacks up. Government Members try to suggest that these earners are all wealth creators, but we need to look a bit closer to home in the public sector. Perhaps the Government of whom I was a part, and the party that I represent, should have been a bit sharper in this regard. Public sector salaries have increased exponentially over the past decade. With the best will in the world, and much as I admire many of the people in my own constituency, and those I have met over the years, who work in the public sector because they genuinely believe in public service, they are not wealth creators, and I do not think they would consider themselves to be so. They may be safeguarding the health of my constituents or enabling the council to deliver excellent services; there are myriad ways that they can help, but wealth creation is not one of them.

The notion that this measure has the benefit of encouraging wealth creators to stay in this country and create wealth is false. It may be true of a few, but for someone who is very wealthy it will not make the biggest difference. In fact, corporation tax will probably have a bigger effect on why people choose to invest. That is why there was a battle royal in the Republic of Ireland about keeping its corporation tax down to the lowest level in Europe to make sure that businesses were attracted to Ireland and wanted to stay there when it was going through very difficult economic times. If we are to have a grand plan for simplification, this does not seem to be part of it.

We should look at what the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies have said about the supposed £2.9 billion that the Treasury expects to get back from people who are currently avoiding tax. The OBR said:

“The results of this evaluation are highly uncertain.”

The IFS said:

“If the future of the 50p rate is to be determined on the basis of evidence about its impact then Budget 2012 will be too soon to form a robust judgement.”

We lack robust judgments in this debate. This policy has become a shibboleth for one half of the coalition, while the higher rate of personal allowance that takes people out of tax is very important to the other half, and the two halves do not properly join up. Many of my constituents are among the poorest in the country, and when everything is taken into account, they will not gain from either measure because the increased rate of personal allowance does nothing to improve the public services that many of them are now losing out on as cuts begin to bite.

As my hon. Friend Barry Gardiner said, the big question about this tax take is how much revenue will be brought in from so-called missed tax avoidance in future years given that people will front-load their tax benefits in the early years. Overall, there is an inherent unfairness throughout the Budget decisions and announcements that the Chancellor made, and I hope that this measure will bite the dust. It is as much about the signal that it sends as the reality of it. For me, that is very important, because my constituents, many of whom are working hard and just trying to hold body and soul together, do not see the fairness in this and do not see why the very richest should pay much less tax as a result. Indeed, these people are supposedly saving £10,000 in a single year, and that is as much as many of my constituents earn in a year.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck 8:30 pm, 2nd July 2012

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. Ten thousand pounds a year equates to £833 a month, and it is more than hundreds of thousands of people in my constituency make on an annual basis.

Photo of Meg Hillier Meg Hillier Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch

Absolutely. If we have a duty in this House, it is constantly to remind ourselves of what life is like for our constituents. We can get lulled into a sense of safety and snugness on these green Benches and enjoy intellectual repartee and debate, but we are here to represent the people who elected us. It is incumbent on us to remember that many people are living on £10,000 a year or less, and it is important that we reflect their concerns in this House. For me, that is a burning issue. I want my constituents to earn more than £10,000 a year, but they will not be able to do so unless we get the economy moving.

Locally, we have real poverty and high unemployment. Youth unemployment has risen to about a quarter of the total number of my constituents aged under 24, as roughly a third of them are, and we are seeing an increase in over-50s unemployment. These are the people who are not gaining but seeing those earning over £150,000 gain considerably. There is a lot that we need to do.

We must look at the unfairness of the cut overall and at the needs of the people who are earning less. I do not think that the money that is supposed to come back will be used to reverse the cuts to further education, to make the banks lend or restore the overdraft facilities of small businesses in my area, or to restore the education maintenance allowance, which had a big impact in helping those in my constituency who wanted to skill themselves up to earn more money—the end of EMA put those people on the back foot. Those matters all impact on the lives of people in Hackney South and Shoreditch today.

A year ago, the Chancellor promised that the measures in the Budget, some of which we are debating today, would boost the economy. What have we seen in the past year? The economy has not just stalled, but shrunk. Again, who suffers the most? It is not the people who have gained from the reduction in the 50p rate of tax, but ordinary men and women up and down the country who are working hard and paying tax. The Chancellor has also had to borrow £150 billion more than planned.

I have mentioned the freezing of the personal allowance overall, but the decision to take away the pensioner element has the biggest impact on those who earn between £10,000 and £29,000 a year. There are not many pensioners in my constituency who earn more than that, although it does have an interesting mix. Being on the edge of a city, there are people of greater wealth in my constituency, but they are not many in number.

Somebody who is due to retire in 2013-14 aged 65 will lose £323 a year, which other Members have talked about at length. It is worth reiterating the point that I made to the hon. Member for Amber Valley: somebody who is on a fixed income or who will be on a fixed income in a year’s time will have to adjust their affairs overall, including their savings if they are lucky enough to have any. That £323 may not seem much to us on our comfortable salaries as Members of Parliament, but for people on low-level fixed incomes of just above the amount where they would get help other than the basic state pension, that will have a real impact on their household income. I reiterate that we must think about the message that that sends out: pensioners are the victims; those earning £150,000 a year or more are the victors. That is unfair.

Photo of Graeme Morrice Graeme Morrice Labour, Livingston

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate in support of the Labour Opposition amendments.

I was a member of the Finance Bill Committee and attended each of the 18 sittings over the past several weeks; obviously I must have been bad in a former life. It was clear to me that the more the Bill was scrutinised in Committee, the more it was revealed that the Bill, and the Budget that it will enshrine into statute, is the omnishambles that many commentators have described it as.

Once again, the Tories are showing their true colours. It was a classic Tory Budget, with millions paying more so that millionaires can pay less. That is evidenced by the fact that, as we have heard throughout the debate, 14,000 millionaires will receive a tax cut of more than £40,000 a year, while 4.4 million pensioners will lose an average of £83 a year. It is a classic Tory Budget, but with the difference that it was possible only thanks to the support of the Liberal Democrats—the Lib Dems who continued publicly to oppose any change to the 50p rate of income tax immediately prior to the Budget statement but then voted for it; the Lib Dems who, before the last election, repeatedly stated their opposition to immediate public spending cuts, only to support a Budget reduction of more than £6 billion within two weeks of forming the coalition; and, lest we forget, the Lib Dems who promised not to raise VAT and then raised it.

The 50p rate raised about £1 billion in its first year and could have raised £3 billion a year over the lifetime of this Parliament and beyond. Its continuation could have been used to cut fuel duty, not just freeze it, as we agreed in the previous debate. Many of my constituents have written to me about that. It could have been used to reverse the Government’s damaging cuts to tax credits or help reduce the deficit. Instead, the Chancellor chose to give the richest 1% of earners a huge payout. People on middle and low incomes are already being squeezed by rising fuel, energy and food prices. Now, their tax credits and child benefit are being cut. Yet again, the Government have made the wrong choice and proved how totally out of touch they are.

The aspect of the Budget that has undoubtedly caused the most anger among my constituents is the decision to freeze the personal allowance for pensioners, which will help subsidise the Chancellor’s bumper tax cut for the rich. That was buried in the Budget’s small print, and the Government tried to make out that it was a tidying-up exercise. However, nobody was fooled by that. It was clear that it was actually a £3 billion tax raid on pensioners. No wonder that was the only aspect of the Budget that was not leaked in advance.

How will the Chancellor’s tough talk about cracking down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance, which he says is “morally repugnant”, be put into action if the resources of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs continue to be cut? Some 10,000 jobs will go by 2015, including 240 processing posts at Pentland House in my constituency.

Labour’s five-point plan for growth offers an alternative vision. If the Government followed our advice and implemented a £2 billion tax on bank bonuses to fund 100,000 jobs for young people, we would begin to see some progress on tackling the scourge of youth unemployment. Instead, millions are left to pay for a Budget for millionaires—a classic Tory Budget, but this time supported by the discredited Liberal Democrats.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I should, in the interests of probity, place on record the fact that my wife works for Age Scotland. I declare that interest.

The contrast between the two sums of money that we are debating has been mentioned several times. There is the £3 billion of tax cuts for millionaires’ row, versus the £3 billion by which our pensioners will be worse off as a result of the punitive measures employed by Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members. Personal allowances for the over-65s, our golden generation, are to be cut in real terms in the coming year. As several hon. Members have mentioned, that will mean that a pensioner who turns 65 in the next year will be up to £323 a year worse off. In these hard-pressed times, with the rising cost of living, rising energy and water prices and the flatlining of their savings, they can ill afford to pay that tax. It is worth contrasting their situation with that of the people who will be the greatest beneficiaries of the Government’s decisions.

I know that many Members are fans of a popular US television programme called “The West Wing”. For hon. Members who do not own a television, let me explain that it is about a wonderful Democrat politician, whom Members of all parties might aspire to be, who is pitted against a mad, right-wing Republican Congress that pursues more and more absurd policies. Even “The West Wing” could not countenance the idea that in a time of austerity, when deficits have to be reduced, a right-wing party—or the two right-wing Government parties—would call for tax cuts for the very wealthiest. Even Speaker Haffley in “The West Wing” would not support such ludicrous so-called economics.

Much has been made of how the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats get along. We have heard many stories of the infamous quad—the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and their servant, the Deputy Prime Minister—drinking whisky late at night to celebrate putting the Budget to bed. Perhaps if they had spent a little less time on the drams and a little more on the details, they would not have ended up in this absurd situation. We have heard allegations that Prime Ministers of previous Governments were not always aware of the detail of a Budget, but I do not recall a Chancellor who was not aware of it. We have seen time after time in debates on this Bill, and in U-turn after U-turn, that this Chancellor is unaware of that detail. As my hon. Friend Ms Eagle said last week at business questions, perhaps next year’s Budget should be written in pencil so we can save time by simply rubbing out the changes.

In that spirit, I hope the Minister sees sense, having heard eloquent arguments from Opposition Members and the lack of arguments offered by Government Members.

Photo of Ian Mearns Ian Mearns Labour, Gateshead 8:45 pm, 2nd July 2012

Would my hon. Friend care to speculate on how many of the 14,000 millionaires who will be super-beneficiaries of the measures will stop moving the mountains of cash that they currently move to avoid paying tax when the top rate is reduced from 50p to 45p? Surely if they move mountains of cash to avoid paying 50p, they will not move any less to avoid paying 45p.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I suspect the best and fastest way to answer my hon. Friend’s question would be to attend the next Conservative party fundraising drinks event, where I am sure many of those millionaires will be buying the Minister a rather hearty round.

Much has been made of the quad’s all-night drinking session. I am sure they were drinking fine Scotch malts—indeed, no fine malts are made outside Scotland—but they should have spent more time looking at the detail of those two decisions. In direct contrast to Charlie Elphicke, I would argue that pensioners on an income of £10,000 a year are not among the wealthiest pensioners in the country. If Conservative Members believe pensioner households struggling to get by on £10,000 are wealthy, it goes to show how staggeringly out of touch they are.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and am enjoying his wanderings through the drinking habits of certain Members of the House, which I am not sure are directly relevant. Why is it fair that pensioners should have this benefit but not families who have a £10,000 allowance who are struggling with children? What is it fair that the benefit should be age-related?

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I always give way to the hon. Gentleman, who knows more about age than anyone in the House. He needs no history lesson, but the measure goes back to the end of the second world war, and the concept of the greatest generations—those who have given a lifetime of sacrifice. It is worth noting that, just last week, we unveiled a long-overdue memorial to some of that greatest generation. I am sure he would recognise their sacrifice.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

The measure was introduced earlier, I believe by Winston Churchill; indeed, an hon. Member asked earlier how we could overturn what the great man had done. The wartime generation are having the benefit frozen; they are not losing it. The people who are not getting it were not born when the war was going on.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I cannot believe the hon. Gentleman’s hearing is going. I began by saying that a cash freeze is a real-terms cut. I am sure he would agree with that.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

The Government’s wonderful policies are very successfully bringing down inflation; there has been a substantial fall. In addition, oil prices are coming down and there is a cut in fuel duty. That amazing combination means everything is working very well.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

With an intervention like that, it will not be long before the hon. Gentleman is sitting on the Front Bench speaking for the Government on Treasury matters. Perhaps I can help him on another matter, though, because several references were made to Take That. For his benefit, let me say that they are a popular beat combo who can often be found on the wireless. He might enjoy listening to them.

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. We do not need to worry about Take That and radios for today. I think that the circus has carried on long enough.

Photo of Ian Mearns Ian Mearns Labour, Gateshead

Would my hon. Friend care to reflect that we have just heard from Jacob Rees-Mogg a celebration of stagflation?

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

My hon. Friend is correct. This is not a time for celebration, as the cost of living continues to rise and the cost of energy and other precious commodities heads in the wrong direction. The real-terms cut faced by pensioners this year will make their lives much harder.

It is also worth reflecting on who will benefit from the proposals outlined by Ministers. We are talking about footballers, pop stars and “Big Brother” contestants. We talk about wealth generation and the value of people. With the greatest respect, I would argue that those three categories should not be given priority over our greatest generation. I know that the Minister is a courageous soul and, for his sins, an Ipswich Town supporter—such as that can be—but I wonder whether he truly believes that the value given by Ipswich Town players last year or this year was greater than the value given by the greatest generation in our nation. Surely, he must reflect on whether Middlesbrough, Ipswich Town, Sunderland, Leicester City or Crystal Palace players should really be prioritised over our pensioners.

Photo of Gloria De Piero Gloria De Piero Shadow Minister (Home Affairs)

Did my hon. Friend notice the inconsistency of the Liberal Democrats on this matter? In January, they said it would be very wrong to reduce the 50p tax, but by March they were briefing that they were not ideologically wedded to the tax. Has this episode not demonstrated their powerlessness in government?

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I often think that the Business Secretary would make an excellent contestant on “Strictly Come Dancing”, such is his fleetness of foot. In fact, I am sure that tomorrow morning there will be leaflets out in Brent and elsewhere condemning and disowning this Government policy, as if Liberal Democrat votes had not yet again carried the argument, leaving Ipswich Town footballers and others better off and our greatest generation worse off. This is a poverty of policy. It is the worst example of what happens when the quad sits up drinking and it will leave the country with a dreadful hangover.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

The policy on the higher tax rate is, in effect, an endorsement of tax avoidance, which worries me greatly. Some of us sat through the Finance Bill Committee and heard Government Back-Bench Members say how much they disapproved of tax avoidance, but throughout this episode we have heard people argue that because some people have taken steps to avoid tax, we should reduce it. That is highly unsatisfactory to the many people who, on pay-as-you-earn, have little ability to avoid tax. They are gobsmacked by all this.

If part of the problem was due to people forestalling, which is the technical term, in the first year of the new tax, perhaps—and this is a thought for the future too—we should have introduced it with immediate effect, as happens with some other taxes. For example, tobacco duty is generally increased on the day of a Budget, so that people do not rush out to fill their shopping bags—or whatever they do. Perhaps that would have been a way around it. I know it is not traditionally done with increases in tax rates, but if that is how people respond to these things, perhaps we should treat higher earners like we treat people we think will fill their bags with cheap booze or cigarettes, and forestall them, rather than letting them forestall the rest of us—because that is what they are doing to the communities in which they live. Unfortunately, in a year’s time, we are likely to hear Government Members saying “We told you so” even more. The reduction has been postponed for a year, but it will still happen, and a lot of people will no doubt do the same thing in reverse when it does.

It has become something of a mantra to say that no money was ever raised from the 50p rate of tax, but that is not true: £1 billion was raised, even in the year in which people were apparently forestalling. If we had let it run for somewhat longer, the situation could have been even more different. However, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies pointed out, to rush to judgment on this matter so quickly, because that suited the way in which the Government wanted to go, was not justified. We are, in effect, saying to people that it is all right to avoid tax.

I started to tell a little story earlier, and I hope that it will be seen to be relevant. I am fascinated by history, and particularly by housing, and—unusually, for me—I watched a television programme last night. It was entitled “The Secret History of Our Streets”, and last night’s episode was about Portland road, in London. It had been made long before the current debate on the Budget. A young, brash banker got up and said that the value of the property on that street had gone up even further since the taxpayers had bailed out the banks. Did we really think, he asked, that the banks were going to start lending to small businesses? No, they were going to give people like him an increase in income so that they could pay even more for those houses. He might have been one of those boastful types, but that was nevertheless an insight into the mindset of the kind of people in our community who think that tax avoidance is absolutely legitimate. There is a great deal of wealth in this country, as that example showed, and many ordinary people find this whole debate offensive and difficult to swallow.

At the other end of the tax issue, we have the question of raising the tax-free allowances. The Government keep saying how kind they are being to people on low incomes, but we should remember that once those people have had their tax allowance raised, they will get no further advantage in subsequent years because they are already out of the income tax regime. Other people, however, have gained considerable advantages from the raising of the basic tax threshold. Many people on considerably higher earnings—although not necessarily paying higher rates of tax—have gained from the measure.

It has been easy—for the Liberal Democrats in particular, as this is one of their favourite lines—to say that raising the tax threshold is all about helping the very poorest. However, the very poorest were already outside the income tax regime, and people on considerably higher earnings—particularly two-earner families without children—have benefited substantially from the raising of the threshold. We must also take into account what people on the margins who have been taken out of tax have lost. When we look at the details, we see that as a result of the measure, they could lose tax credits and, in some cases, housing benefit. Their gain is therefore very much less than has been suggested.

Photo of Kevan Jones Kevan Jones Shadow Minister (Defence)

A lot of the people my hon. Friend is describing are actually in work, and the Government seem to forget that a lot of low-paid workers get housing benefit and other benefits. Does she agree that it is those individuals who will be hit the hardest?

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

Indeed, people who are working and who are, or were, paying tax stand to lose considerable amounts, particularly in the light of the way in which the tax credit system has been eroded as part of this process.

There are those who say—again, this is one of those things that keeps getting repeated as if it were true—that the Labour Government were not bothered about getting people into work or making work pay, but the whole thrust of tax credits, including child care tax credits, was indeed to make work pay. What this Government have done, by reducing the amount that can be claimed for child care, by taking away tax credits and, most inappropriately in my opinion, by taking away tax credits from some of the lowest-paid couples because they are deemed not to be working enough hours, more than detracts from the gains made by raising the tax threshold. Being realistic, these poor people whom the Liberal Democrats think they are standing up for have, particularly if they have children, lost out because of the combined effect of the Government’s measures.

I do not think there is any proof for the idea that if we lower tax rates, people will somehow invest. Let us look at what the Office for Budget Responsibility said about investment. It is predicting that the amount of investment going into business in the coming years will be much less than was previously thought. Despite what Government Members believe, if the people apparently not even paying this tax are not investing in the economy, is it clear where they are putting their money? Yes, they are clearly putting it into very expensive properties, but that does nothing to improve job prospects for young people.

Photo of Kevan Jones Kevan Jones Shadow Minister (Defence) 9:00 pm, 2nd July 2012

I suggest that those people are also putting their money into the Conservative party, whose largest donors are often hedge fund managers or financial services companies.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

That may well be the case.

What we need to do is to find ways to invest in our economy that will genuinely benefit not just those who are unemployed, but those who are under-employed. The Government like to suggest that the rate of growth in the private sector has increased slightly in the last few months, but most of the jobs created over the last couple of years are part-time jobs. As a result of that, these very people are simultaneously losing tax credits and have to claim other benefits. The housing benefit bill has risen substantially in the last year, despite the Government’s changes, and that is because many people in part-time jobs are having to claim. What we saw in May, for example, was that the tax take had dropped and expenditure had risen, particularly on various kinds of welfare benefits.

Taken as a whole, this policy is simply not working. I would have greater respect for the Government if they were now saying, “We must look at why it is that some people are seeking to avoid the additional rate of tax. We must find ways—perhaps it is nudge, perhaps it is enforcement—to make them pay.” As others have said in this and previous debates, we seem to say to one group of people that if we take their benefits away they will work harder, while we say to another group of people that we have to give them more money through tax breaks so that they will work harder. It does not make a great deal of sense, and it is profoundly unfair.

Some of the differentials in our society now are huge. If the proportion—not necessarily the amount—of tax being paid by the top 1% of earners has risen, it might well be because their incomes have risen so much further than those of the rest of the community. The gap between the top earners and the rest has widened hugely over the last few years, which creates a profoundly unequal society.

Photo of Stephen Williams Stephen Williams Liberal Democrat, Bristol West

I have listened to a good deal of what the hon. Lady has said during our debates, and I have been trying to decide whether or not she supports the raising of the tax allowance. However, I want to ask her about the specific point that she made about the gap between the rich and the poor, which she said had widened over a “few years”. Surely she meant “over the last 13 years”.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

As I think the hon. Gentleman knows fairly well, the increase in inequality began far earlier than that. The point in the history of the post-war United Kingdom when the equality gap was narrowest was 1979, which, interestingly, marked the end of a 20-year period during which Labour Governments had predominated. After 1979, the widening of the gap began and accelerated.

I would not suggest for a moment that the party of which I am a member did as much as I should have liked it to do when it was in government, but we did a great deal for pensioners and the least well-off workers in society by, for instance, getting single parents back to work and introducing the minimum wage. It is simply not true that we were not aware of the issues, or that we did nothing to tackle them. The hon. Gentleman may want to return to the heady days of 1979, and perhaps we should all want to do that. Now, however, inequality is breeding a society that poses many dangers, and we want to reduce that inequality, but I do not believe that the Budget does anything to reduce it. We know that the Budget will increase child poverty, and I believe that in three or four years the inequality gap will have widened even more.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

It is a real pleasure to follow Sheila Gilmore, who made such an enormous contribution to the Public Bill Committee. She enlivened it regularly with her thoughts, with which I have almost invariably disagreed—and today is no exception.

We are now dealing with the best part of the Budget: the heart, soul and even the guts of it. We are doing some big and bold and important things, with which I shall deal in turn. One of them is tough and brave and noble. It is the proper aim of Government to take on difficult things which, although difficult, are right. But I shall start, instead—

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Is it bold and tough to rob the pensioners of £3 billion and give the millionaires a £3 billion tax cut?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

The pensioners are not being robbed. The pensioners have been extraordinarily well looked after by this Government, and rightly so. I agree in many respects with Thomas Docherty, who talked earlier about how important the elderly were to our society. He called them the golden generation. I thought that, out of respect to Her Majesty, we ought to call them the diamond generation, as they are all over 60.

Of course we owe a great deal to the elderly. That is why it is right that they have kept their bus passes—which they are pleased to have, although there are not many buses in North East Somerset—and their winter fuel allowances. If they are over 75, they will also retain their free television licences so they can watch the BBC free of charge. I think that many of them prefer Sky nowadays, but that is a separate issue. The Conservative party, in alliance with our Liberal Democrat friends, has looked after the pensioners.

As for the thresholds, it is absolutely right that they should be evened out. Let us consider the people who are paying tax across the country. How is it fair for those who have retired to be given an automatic tax break, rather than those who are working hard and perhaps bringing up children? They need the income just as much as the pensioners, and in some cases more. That, I think, was bold and brave of the Government, and right.

I want to begin, however, by discussing the easiest step to defend—the one that was so startlingly obvious that it is surprising that the Government did not take it earlier and go further. I am talking about the reduction in the 50p tax rate to 45p. We know well that high taxes drive out enterprise and people, and drive down tax revenues. That is not because of evil schemes of tax avoidance; it is because people simply decide that if they are not going to get paid, they will not work. They remove their labour. Our socialist friends—

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

Does the hon. Gentleman really believe our society is enhanced by these pop stars and Premiership footballers?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

It has to be said that I am not the world’s greatest expert on pop stars and footballers, but none the less I think they bring a richness to our national life that enlivens many people in my constituency, and even in Scotland. They want to watch the highest quality football being played.

This is relevant, Mr Deputy Speaker, in case you think I am going off on a tangent. I have thought that it would be a good idea to remove the limit on overseas players in cricket, because that limit has been removed in association football and it has led to our having in this country the highest quality league football, and in English cricket—

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. We are drifting away from the topic under discussion—and as somebody who follows cricket and feels that it is to the benefit of the England team that there are not too many overseas players in the county game, I do not want to go any further into this debate.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the reduction of tax is what encourages them to be here and why they do not decide to work in other countries instead.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

I am pretty sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the England cricket team is very good and the England football team is not very good.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

But my concern was about Somerset county cricket club. Football teams such as Manchester United do very well through having more foreign players. Somerset, however, has yet to win the county championship, but this lower level of tax and greater freedom in employing overseas players may lead to its achieving that.

Returning to the question of the 45p tax rate, we have had a discussion about avoidance in that context, and I want to defend tax avoidance. I know this is not the most popular cause to espouse, but I do so because I believe in the rule of law, and I do not believe the rule of law is best maintained by Parliament being arbitrary in its taxation.

We have the power, through our votes this evening, to set rates of tax as we choose—to set schemes that allow people to be charged tax, or not to be charged tax, as we choose. If we in this House are too incompetent to draw up the tax law properly, is it reasonable to say to the taxpayer, “You must work out what Parliament may have wanted. This is not what is said, but Parliament may have wanted you to pay this extra amount on top”? Should we then also say that to people who put money into their individual savings accounts? Should we retrospectively say that they ought to have paid more tax on their ISA sums, or on their pension funds?

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a moral obligation on people to pay taxes, as well as a legal obligation?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

No, I do not. I do not believe that taxation is a matter of morality. I believe the law is a matter of morality and it is immoral to break the law, and therefore I divide very firmly between tax evasion and tax avoidance, which is the historical position of this Parliament—and, indeed, of English law. Tax evasion is criminal and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I think the scheme used by a comedian, whose name momentarily escapes me but who is quite famous, was almost certainly unlawful, and that scheme should be prosecuted.

Photo of Kevan Jones Kevan Jones Shadow Minister (Defence)

I know the hon. Gentleman lives in a rarefied world, but does he not understand the anger felt not only by low-paid workers, but middle-earners, who pay their tax through pay-as-you-earn and have no opportunity to avoid tax, unlike the footballers to whom he referred? This situation cannot be fair in any society.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

It is very important, once again, to differentiate between avoidance and evasion. If we have passed laws that allow people, for example footballers, to sell the rights to their name and corporatise that, we can change the law, and the fact that this Parliament has not changed the law means that people are entitled to do it.

Photo of Kevan Jones Kevan Jones Shadow Minister (Defence) 9:15 pm, 2nd July 2012

Does the hon. Gentleman get it? Does he not understand the anger of even middle-income earners, who pay their taxes, work hard and cannot use any schemes such as those he has been suggesting are open to those on ludicrous sums of £250,000 a week? Many people in Somerset must be in this category?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am getting so many interventions, and I am always happy to take them all; all comers are welcome. I do not think that there is this anger; I think that people are very supportive of high earners who earn their money.

Photo of Chris Heaton-Harris Chris Heaton-Harris Conservative, Daventry

Does that not make the point? If there was this anger, thousands of people would not queue in lines to get their season ticket for Manchester United at the beginning of each season and millions of people would not be watching on television, because the strength of anger that Labour Members seem to want to articulate would mean that people would boycott these disgraceful sports and pursuits.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and he has hit the nail on the head.

Photo of Ian Mearns Ian Mearns Labour, Gateshead

The hon. Gentlemen have got it quite wrong. The tribal nature of football is that people idolise their own team’s players and despise the activities of the players from other teams. The bottom line is that Jacob Rees-Mogg would prefer that there was no tax at all.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

The hon. Gentleman is wrong on that last point; I recognise that there is a need for taxation, though slightly beyond the clauses we are immediately discussing. However, I will answer the important point that he has raised on the tribal nature of football and why people are willing to see these high salaries paid. It is because they recognise that those salaries get them the best quality players and they want to see the best quality players playing for the team that they so ardently and passionately support—it is an ardent passion that I do not have, but I understand that many people do have it. That requires low taxes, because otherwise these players take their talent abroad.

I come back to Professor Laffer, because his argument is one that is so obvious as to be self-evident: if the tax rate is zero, nothing will be raised and if it is 100%, no sane person will pay it either as there is no point in working or in earning. There is some point along that curve where the least legal avoidance takes place—I emphasise that avoidance is legal—the most amount of working is done and the highest amount of revenue is received. We have seen this. I know that some Conservative Members, myself included, think that there was a golden age when Baroness Thatcher was in charge—

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I give way to another supporter of the golden age.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

I intervened just too early, because he mentioned Margaret Thatcher—another issue. Is there anywhere on this curve that the hon. Gentleman continues to mention where morality comes into play?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

This argument is not a moral one. We are not the House of Bishops. I am all in favour of the Lords Spiritual having a view on this, but I am not one of them. I did not go into the Church; I went into politics. Politics is about raising the revenue that is needed for the country to carry out its business, and it is not an issue of morality in terms of how we phrase the laws. That those laws are then obeyed is a matter of morality. I can probably quote paragraphs of the Catholic catechism on this, but you are looking fretful at that thought, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall move back to the golden age of the noble Baroness Thatcher, Lady of the Garter, Order of Merit.

In 1979, the top tax rate was 98%—83p in the pound on income tax and a 15p surcharge. [Interruption.] I hear Labour Members saying that that was excellent and a jolly good thing. It is rather splendid to know that I am not the only one with dinosaur-style views in this House; there are even greater dinosaurs on the Labour Benches. When those tax rates were reduced they came down first to 60% and then to 40%, to fury from hon. Members. I believe that the House was suspended when the noble Lord Lawson introduced the rate of 40p in the pound; I think the Scottish nationalists got up in a passion of anger, wishing for higher taxation to spread across the realm of the United Kingdom. What did that reduction do? It raised more money for Her Majesty’s Government, which meant that the Government could spend money on their priorities and pay down their debt. We had a golden economic scenario when the noble Lord Lawson was at the helm, because we believed in low tax rates and had the courage of our convictions.

Photo of Kelvin Hopkins Kelvin Hopkins Labour, Luton North

I remember the noble Lord Lawson’s time as Chancellor and the real reason we boomed in that time was that he depreciated our currency by 35%.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Without going anything other than briefly through a history of sterling in the 1980s, I seem to remember that it bottomed in 1985 at $1.10 and then started rising again. So, that was not the case throughout the noble Lord’s period in office.

I shall come back to the subject of the Laffer curve, but I must first take an intervention from Susan Elan Jones.

Photo of Susan Elan Jones Susan Elan Jones Opposition Whip (Commons)

I must confess that I was rather enjoying the sporting analogies and wondering, if the rules were different, what rates of taxation would be required for England rugby players to be able to beat the Welsh—but let me move on. The hon. Gentleman says that there is no morality in tax, but how does he feel about indirect taxation? There were many concerns about the effect on petrol prices, for example, when VAT was raised. Does he think that that should be reduced, too?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am grateful to the hon. Lady—

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

Order. We are in danger of moving off the topic. We are discussing personal allowances and we need to get back to them. We have had a good lesson in the Jurassic history from those on both sides of the Chamber.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. One always feels ashamed not to answer a question directly, so I apologise to the hon. Lady for the fact that I shall have to give a later answer on that knotty point of value added tax.

I will stick with the Laffer curve and its history of increased revenue. We heard from the Opposition that when rates went down, the economy boomed and so, therefore, did the revenues raised. There are two answers to that. One reason that the economy boomed was that there was lower tax, so people had more of their own money in their pockets to spend on goods and services, leading to overall economic growth. Secondly, the amount paid by top taxpayers grew much faster than the rate of the economy overall. We are now in a situation where 27% of income tax is now paid by the top 1% of income tax payers—

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

In 1979, when the hon. Gentleman had a real socialist Government, that figure was about 8%. One can see that massive expansion in the burden of tax falling on the richest in society—the ones who can bear that burden—comes when the rate is lower. That is an excellent part of this Budget; perhaps the best part.

Photo of Chris Heaton-Harris Chris Heaton-Harris Conservative, Daventry

I thank my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. If one could possibly take the politics out of tax, surely one would want to hit the tax rate that brings in the most revenue, in order to pay for hospitals and everything else. If that tax rate was proved to be lower than the higher tax rate, one would like to think that common sense would prevail and that Ministers would choose the tax rate that would bring in the money.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I agree with my hon. Friend. I believe that there are studies that show that that rate would be 36p in the pound. I hope that the Minister is listening and that we can look forward in the next Budget to the rate being lower still.

We have heard discussion about the morality of tax rates, and I dispute that there is morality to tax rates, but there is a perniciousness about taxing for the sake of it and about taxing for the sake of envy, because people do not like the rich or because they wish to crush the income earners in society. That is not the type of envy that we have on these Benches. Even our Liberal Democrat friends do not suffer from that type of envy; they recovered from it after their experience in 1909.

We Conservative Members have never had that type of envy. We recognise that if the maximum amount of revenue is raised, it is better for everybody. We heard our Prime Minister giving an invitation to our friends in France, saying, “Come and join us. The weather here may be rainy, but the tax rate is only 45p in the pound, compared with the 75p that you may have to pay.”

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

Will the hon. Gentleman enlighten the House on what personal tax allowances he would put in place at different levels, if he were the Chancellor and had the power?

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

It would be an impertinence for someone who entered the House in only the past two years to aspire, even hypothetically, to the height of Chancellor of the Exchequer. I leave that question to my hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench, who, having listened carefully to all that is said in this debate, will no doubt advise the Chancellor. They may consider the figure of 36p in the pound to be perfectly suitable—or they may go further and advocate a flat tax, which is a very attractive proposition. Perhaps people could have tabled an amendment to that effect, but sadly they did not. As I understand from my hon. Friend Nigel Mills, who is no longer in his place

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Oh, he is behind me. My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley said that the effect of the amendment from our Labour friends would be to bring the tax rate down to 40p. I am not sure that it was wise of him to say that, because those of us who were listening may be tempted to go into the same Lobby as the Opposition later, to help them achieve that objective.

I want to talk about the other great aspect of the Budget, and to give full credit to our Liberal Democrat friends for twisting Conservatives’ arms to get them to do something that they have always wanted to do anyway: get as many people out of taxation as possible by raising the thresholds. As the thresholds are raised, so the incentive to work becomes greater. Sheila Gilmore said that we wanted to make the out-of-work work harder by cutting their benefits, and the in-work work harder by cutting their taxes, and thought that was illogical. Of course it is not, because a person does not get unemployment benefit for working; if a person works, they lose their benefit, and if we encourage people to work, they have more money. Likewise, if we cut people’s taxes, they have more money, so they are likely to work harder.

When we raise the threshold, we find that many millions of people are able to work more easily. They will be taken out, to some degree, of the poverty trap, which is one of the most crushing and pernicious taxation and benefit traps that anyone has to face. The move, in stages, to a £10,000 threshold is a very bold thing to do in a time of economic difficulty, but it may have some of the greatest social benefits of any of the policies that the Government are following. It really is a noble approach to taxation—an objective that is fundamentally worthy.

Photo of Kevan Jones Kevan Jones Shadow Minister (Defence)

I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but I am not sure that he realises that a large number of my constituents, and possibly his, who are in low-paid jobs claim council tax benefit, housing benefit and tax credits. However, all of those have been cut by the Government, and that counters the encouragement to work, in terms of the increase in the threshold.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am always grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s thoughtful interventions, but one of the greatest mistakes that Governments make is to have this merry-go-round of taxation and benefits, whereby we tax people and then pay them back their own money in benefits, with a cut taken for administration in between. It is much more sensible to take people out of tax altogether. I would like the threshold to be raised considerably higher, basically towards average earnings, so that the bulk of people do not pay tax at all on what they earn, but do, of course, pay in other ways, through other taxes—through indirect taxation. That takes away the major disincentive to go into employment, and lets people benefit from the fruits of their labour. That is an important proposal that has come forward, and it is popular throughout the country, though I would not say that there was literally cheering in the streets.

Photo of Chris Heaton-Harris Chris Heaton-Harris Conservative, Daventry

My hon. Friend talked about the recycling of money through the system. In May 2010, nine out of 10 families were able to claim some sort of tax credit. Surely it is completely wrong if everybody —or 90% of people—is relying on the state to give them money back in some grandiose scheme. Surely taking people out of tax is the right way to get rid of that problem.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

I am in entire agreement with my hon. Friend. We want to get people out of the tax and benefits system as much as possible so that they can stand on their own two feet. That is what people want.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East 9:30 pm, 2nd July 2012

The problem with the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that, even if the tax threshold is raised towards the median income, as he suggested, unless the minimum wage is raised substantially, many people’s earnings will be so low that they will still live in great poverty. That was why benefits such as tax credits were created. The other route might be to raise the minimum wage.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

Mr Deputy Speaker, you will rule me out of order if I argue that raising the minimum wage would be extremely unwise, so I would not dare to say it. However, on the point of benefits for the worst off, I am all in favour of those. It is a thoroughly good thing to help people who are just in the earning bracket, but not to give benefits to people earning £70,000 a year, paid for out of their extraordinarily high taxes.

Photo of Kelvin Hopkins Kelvin Hopkins Labour, Luton North

Surely the biggest disincentive to less well-off people earning or trying to get work—many are trying to get work that is not available because there is mass unemployment—is the fact that all the benefits are means-tested. If we reduced the level of means-testing and had many more universal benefits paid for out of a much more progressive form of taxation, we would avoid that problem.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

There are enormously exciting benefit changes coming through and I look forward to speaking on those with enthusiasm, because I think they will make a substantial change to the welfare of the people of this country. But that is for another day. We must make sure that the tax system encourages work, gets people off benefits and helps them to be prosperous. Universal benefits have the grave disadvantage of wasting money on people who do not need it.

In the limited time that remains to me, I wish to deal with the issue that has caused most controversy: the freezing of the age-related allowance. This was a bold decision for the Government to take, but undoubtedly the right one. The ordinary threshold has been so raised that the age-related allowance, which used to be almost double the ordinary allowance, is now only marginally higher. The change is being made in the most sensible and calm way, by freezing the allowance so that nobody loses in cash terms. There will not be a cash loss to any existing pensioner. Over time the basic threshold will be raised so that everybody is better off.

It is a policy that has of course been momentarily unpopular. It has received a little publicity that is adverse, but as somebody once said, to govern is to choose. Government are at their best when they make tough choices and stick to them. We know that the economic situation of this country is deeply unsatisfactory. We know that we have a deficit that is out of control and a level of debt unseen out of wartime. In getting it right, the Government cannot throw money about like confetti. They must take the tough and bold decisions and yes, there may be consequences in the newspapers, but—

Photo of Kelvin Hopkins Kelvin Hopkins Labour, Luton North

The hon. Gentleman talks about the deficit. Things are getting worse, rather than better, because of the squeeze on the economy. If we made serious efforts to reduce the tax gap, which is estimated at £120 billion a year, we could solve that problem overnight. It is just a question of changing the law to make sure that people pay the taxes that they should pay.

Photo of Jacob Rees-Mogg Jacob Rees-Mogg Conservative, North East Somerset

We have already discussed this. By and large people pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay, as Parliament has laid down. If they evade tax, the full force and might of the law can and should come down upon them.

I conclude on the crucial point of defending the Government on a decision that, though it has not been immediately well received, will be welcomed by the electorate, because the electorate admire Governments who govern effectively through the tough times. They do not admire Governments who are loose and lazy with their money. They admire ones who are willing to take the tough decisions. We should oppose all the amendments in the group and stick with the Budget as it was—a very fine and good Budget, in which the right decisions were made.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

We have had an interesting debate that has addressed what are perhaps two of the most controversial issues in the Budget: the change to age-related allowances and the reduction in the 50p rate of income tax. The debate has lasted three hours, but at one stage I thought we might finish early, until we heard the tour de force from my hon. Friend Jacob Rees-Mogg. I hope that I will have time to respond to the various comments that have been made. We heard Cathy Jamieson quote Groucho Marx, which I suppose is an improvement on other Marxes who might have been quoted, although I was reminded of the other Groucho Marx line:

“I’ve had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn’t it”,

at least until I heard the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset.

The changes the Government have made to the rates and thresholds of income tax will provide a competitive platform for our tax system while also ensuring fairness. The measures in the Bill will reduce the additional rate of income tax in 2013-14 to 45p, increase the personal allowance to £8,105 and simplify the working of age-related allowances. I will discuss each of the amendments in turn, but it is important first to set out why the Government have taken this approach.

The fact is that the 50p rate of income tax has not raised the revenue it was intended to raise. It is currently the highest statutory income tax rate in the G20. When we came to power we inherited an economy that the previous Government had driven into a parlous state, with regard to not only the state of the public finances but our overall competitiveness. The fact is that the 50p rate came in only at the fag end of the Labour Government, who for 13 years had kept the 40p rate, and when they brought in the 50p rate they declared that it was temporary. There was a reason for that: they recognised that the 50p rate would damage our competitiveness. The hard evidence backs up that claim. The report by HMRC sets out that the 50p rate is distortive, damaging to international competitiveness and an economically inefficient way of raising revenue.

In short, the 50p rate is a failed policy. We were told that it would raise over £2 billion and, given the crippling deficit we were left, that was not something we could just wave away as if it did not matter. However, higher taxes are worthwhile only if they raise more revenue, and the analysis by HMRC shows that at best the yield would be £1 billion, and at worst it may raise nothing at all. That is because the behavioural response has been substantially larger than expected.

Photo of Chris Heaton-Harris Chris Heaton-Harris Conservative, Daventry

One part of HMRC’s gaming for this actually did not look at how much extra money would come in as a result of the incentive to pay the lower level of tax. Surely it would have been worthwhile doing that so that we could prove to some of those who do not understand simple economics that it would be worthwhile.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

HMRC’s analysis, which is a good piece of work, showed through two different mechanisms that the reality was that the amount being raised was somewhat less than had been predicted. The fact is that the behavioural response was much greater.

Let me say a word or two about that. To start with, HMRC estimates that as much as £18 billion worth of forestalling took place in 2009-10, of which about two thirds, up to £11.3 billion, has been estimated to unwind in 2010-11, but this forestalling was not factored into the original revenue calculations. Furthermore, HMRC estimates that between one third and one half of the behavioural effect comes from genuine reductions in income. We have heard this evening that this is all about tax avoidance, that tax avoidance increases when we increase the rate and that we can be sure we will get the benefit of it as we unwind, but the reality is that between one third and one half of this was simply the result of less economic activity, because people reduced their hours and participation in the UK labour market and moved elsewhere.

Photo of Kelvin Hopkins Kelvin Hopkins Labour, Luton North

The Minister has said it: the amount raised from the increase in tax declined because the economy went into relative decline as a result of the Government’s policies. The fact is, however, that all this is about the feebleness of our tax-collecting system—the laws governing it and HMRC, which has been shown to be soft on big companies, in particular, and soft on the rich when it comes to tax collection. Light-touch regulation: that is the poison.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

I strongly disagree, but before I turn to tax avoidance let us remember that between one third and one half of the reduction is because of less participation in the labour market. It is not because of the decline in the economy; we are talking about people moving elsewhere, people retiring earlier and people working fewer hours because it is not worth their while, in their opinion, to work as hard as they would otherwise do. Let us not forget that when someone moves from this country to Switzerland, we miss not just the difference between 45p and 50p, but everything, the whole 50p, and not just that bit above £150,000, but the first £150,000. That is the consequence of a tax rate that drives people out of the country and does not attract them here.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife

Can the Minister tell me two premiership footballers who have left the country because of this tax rate?

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

No I cannot, but I know that, for example, the Arsenal manager remarked that the 50p rate put him at a disadvantage. Earlier, the hon. Gentleman mentioned Ipswich Town and whether its players deserved a tax cut or pensioners did, and I have to say that on last season’s performance one or two looked as if they could qualify for the age-related allowance, but that is not at the heart of my argument.

The point is that we have to be competitive, and we want to attract talent to the UK, but having a higher rate than France, Italy and Germany is not competitive.

Photo of Sheila Gilmore Sheila Gilmore Labour, Edinburgh East

Generally, when changes are made and we want to assess their impact, we carry out properly independent research. On the changes to housing benefit, for example, the university of Sheffield has been commissioned to produce reports, but what research into our short experience of the 50p tax rate was carried out that gives rise to the conclusions mentioned? Do we have some research that we can look at, or is there just speculation that people might have retired or might have gone to Switzerland?

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

The hon. Lady asks what research we have. I am holding it in my hand: the document produced by HMRC, which sets out a thorough analysis. I urge her to read it and to see that it is far from speculative; it is a thorough piece of work, which shows that as a result of the 50p rate total income fell by between £2.9 billion and £4.4 billion and GDP was between 0.2% and 0.3% lower. There has been not just a loss of tax revenue, but a loss to the whole economy through lower productivity and lower economic activity.

Photo of Justin Tomlinson Justin Tomlinson Conservative, North Swindon

If Labour Members felt that the 50p rate was so good, why did they introduce it as only a temporary measure?

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. As I asked earlier, why did they wait 13 years to introduce it?

Photo of Chris Ruane Chris Ruane Opposition Whip (Commons)

If it is such a sensible, logical and scientifically researched conclusion that reducing the tax rate from 50% to 45% is such a good thing, why do the great British public not believe it?

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

I do not know whether the great British public have reached that conclusion. Perhaps some of them believe some of the arguments put by the Labour party, but if they do I have to point out some of the weaknesses. In the Committee of the whole House, Owen Smith, who previously spoke for the Opposition on this issue, said that he considered the taxable income elasticity calculations in the report to be “smoke and mirrors”. We would call them analysis and economics.

Part of the reason for the lower than expected revenue from the 50p rate is that expectations were simply set too high by the previous Government. A more moderate view allows us better to predict the revenues from a 45p rate, and the analysis undertaken by HMRC states that the cost to the Exchequer of a reduction to 45p is about £100 million.

The 50p rate has been criticised by business. It has risked lasting damage to the UK economy and has raised considerably less than expected for the Exchequer, potentially even costing rather than raising revenue. Change is needed, but it must build on the evidence. We now have a more informed view of the behavioural impact of the additional rate—one fully endorsed and accepted by the Office for Budget Responsibility as central and reasonable.

Photo of Ian Mearns Ian Mearns Labour, Gateshead 9:45 pm, 2nd July 2012

I am grateful to the Minister and Ipswich Town supporter for giving way. Does he agree with the general thrust of the argument put forward by his colleague, Jacob Rees-Mogg? It was that tax avoidance is not at all morally repugnant and it should be encouraged as long as it is legal.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

To be fair, that is not what my hon. Friend said, although I did not agree with everything that he did say on that issue. I shall take this opportunity to say a word or so about avoidance, because the Government are keen to address that.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

Before I do that, I give way to my hon. Friend.

Photo of John Hemming John Hemming Liberal Democrat, Birmingham, Yardley

I am a Government Back Bencher who is not massively enthusiastic about the reduction in the top rate; I think that the Laffer curve peak would be at a higher rate than is thought. However, will the Minister comment on the fact that the Labour party seems to have forgotten that it did nothing to close the transparent fiddles, which are so resented, when people have paid 1% or 2% in tax? Those transparent fiddles have been around for years and Labour did nothing to close those gaps.

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

My hon. Friend makes an important point. If we are talking about unfairness in the tax system as far as rates are concerned, I should say that the much greater unfairness is when wealthy individuals are paying very low rates of income tax—lower rates than are paid by the vast majority of people working in this country.

Let me say a word or two about avoidance. In the Budget, we announced a package of measures that will yield more than £1 billion and protect more than £10 billion in revenues over the next five years. Our approach to tackling stamp duty land tax avoidance and the banking scheme closed down in February demonstrate that we are prepared to move quickly and take radical action where necessary. We are introducing strategic changes to address the underlying loopholes in the tax system, as can be seen in clause 22, which is about the treatment of manufactured overseas dividends. More generally, the Government have been active in their response to tax avoidance schemes and can and do act as soon as they become aware of abusive schemes. We have provided HMRC with additional financial support and we remain absolutely committed to tackling tax avoidance.

Amendment 1 asks us to leave out the additional rate for 2013-14. It is exactly the same amendment as was tabled in the Committee of the whole House. I will not repeat every point that I made then, but as my hon. Friend Nigel Mills said, that might well leave us with just a 40p rate rather than a 45p rate. There is an alternative interpretation, which would mean that no income tax was charged for earnings above £150,000. I say that with some nervousness. I hope that I have not overexcited my hon. Friend Jacob Rees-Mogg; I think that even he would accept that that was below the revenue maximising point.

When the 50p rate was introduced, Mr Darling, the then Chancellor, explicitly stated that it was a temporary measure. We are announcing the cut to 45p now to provide stability for investment decisions and certainty for employees and the self-employed. That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out the rate for 2013-14 this year.

It is right that we take these measures to improve competitiveness, and our doing so has been widely welcomed. This matter must be viewed in the context of the personal allowance increase, which shows that we are committed to a fairer tax system that provides greater reward for work while supporting the public finances. This year there is a £630 increase in the personal allowance, as introduced by clause 3. That represents the second step in our commitment to increase the personal allowance to £10,000 on top of last year’s increase of £1,000. We have also announced a further increase of £1,100 next year—the largest ever increase in cash terms. The Government are taking 2 million people out of income tax, we are providing a tax cut to 24 million people, and we are well on course to meeting our target of a personal allowance of £10,000.

Let me turn to the second subject that we have debated—age-related allowances. Amendment 23 seeks to leave out clause 4, which introduces a phased withdrawal of age-related income tax personal allowances. Those will remain in place until the income tax personal allowance for those born after 5 April 1948 aligns with or overtakes these levels. At that point, the clause guarantees that older people will receive the higher allowance. Amendment 23, like others tabled by Opposition Front Benchers, is a repeat of an amendment tabled in the Committee of the whole House. The Government have committed to increasing the personal allowance above the rate of inflation. Next year, the personal allowance will increase by £1,100—£840 above inflation—and so from 2013-14 everyone born after 5 April 1948 will receive the same personal allowance of £9,205. This will take a further 880,000 people out of tax altogether. Similarly, everyone born after 5 April 1938 will continue to receive the age-related allowance that they currently receive instead of moving on to the higher age-related allowance, which will be maintained for those born on or before this date. There will be no new recipients of age-related allowances from next April.

One of the Government’s key objectives for the tax system is to make it simple and straightforward for people to understand. Clause 4 helps to provide for a simpler system while ensuring that nobody will lose out in cash terms as a result. It will help to make sure that people get the allowances to which they are entitled and pay the right amount of tax, and make the system simpler for Government to administer, thereby minimising costs to the taxpayer.

Photo of Ian Lavery Ian Lavery Labour, Wansbeck

It has been mentioned a hundred times tonight that no one will lose out in cash terms. Will there be any losers in this?

Photo of David Gauke David Gauke The Exchequer Secretary

Nobody will lose out in cash terms; that is the point.

Age-related allowances are complex and hard for older people to understand, as the Public Accounts Committee confirmed in a 2009 report. The same report also stated that too much emphasis is placed on older people having to prove their eligibility, resulting in erroneous claims and potential overpayments of tax. Furthermore, in March this year the Office of Tax Simplification published its interim report on its review of pensioner taxation in which it highlighted no fewer than nine complexities with the age-related personal allowance.

Half the people aged over 65 in 2013-14 will pay no income tax at all and are therefore unaffected by these changes. Those who will now not receive an age-related allowance will benefit from a £1,100 increase in the personal allowance, which represents the largest cash increase ever. At the same time, those who are affected by the withdrawal of age-related allowances will still see the total deductions they pay reduce significantly because we have retained the exemption from national insurance contributions for those of state pension age.

It is important to consider these changes to age-related allowances in the context of the wider support that the Government offer to pensioners. Only 40% of pensioners benefit from age-related allowances, about 50% are unaffected by the changes made by the clause because they pay no tax and will continue to pay no tax, and the remaining 10% have incomes above the taper limit for age-related allowances and are therefore unaffected by these measures.

Let us also remember that the triple lock ensures that each year, the basic state pension will be uprated by the highest of these: inflation, earnings or 2.5%. This April, the basic state pension increased by the consumer prices index inflation rate of 5.2%. That meant that there was an increase of £5.30 a week in the full basic state pension—the largest ever cash increase in the basic state pension. Under the previous Government’s plans, the basic state pension would have increased by only 2.8% from this April—an increase of only £2.85 per week. That means that the full basic state pension is £127 a year higher in 2012 than it would have been under the previous Government’s plans. Next year, a full basic state pension is forecast to be £130 a year higher than under the previous Government’s plans, and the year after that, it is forecast to be £133 higher.

Each year, more than 11 million pensioners will benefit from the introduction of the triple lock. An existing pensioner with a full basic state pension will gain more from the triple lock in each of the next three years than they will lose from the freeze in age-related allowances. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said:

“Our analysis shows that they have lost considerably less from recent tax and benefit changes than any other demographic group. And over the past decade and more pensioner incomes have risen faster than those of the working age population.”

To conclude, the Government are making changes to ensure that there is a fair and competitive tax system. Some of them are controversial, but we should look at the evidence, not the Opposition’s rhetoric. The 50p rate is not sustainable. The introduction of the triple lock on state pensions means pensioners continue to be better off. These changes are good for our long-term tax revenues, good for our economy and good for the UK as a whole. I ask the Opposition to seek leave to withdraw the amendment.

Photo of Rachel Reeves Rachel Reeves Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury

It is good to have plenty of time to wind up for the Opposition. We will press for a vote on amendments 1 and 23 this evening, because as today’s debate has confirmed for anyone who was still in any doubt, this is not only an omnishambles of a Budget, as my hon. Friend Graeme Morrice said, but a flawed and unfair Budget.

We have heard contributions about the hardships that the Government’s economic failure and unfair austerity measures are causing for our constituents. My hon. Friend Meg Hillier talked about the cuts beginning to bite. She rightly said that pensioners are the victims and millionaires are the victors from the Budget. My hon. Friend Ian Lavery said that the tax cut for millionaires is worth more than the money that most of our constituents take home in a year. Jonathan Edwards spoke about a tax cut for the mega-rich that leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Instead of taking serious steps that might repair the damage that has been done, the Chancellor and his Ministers have turned from their failed experiment in expansionary fiscal contraction and resorted to the notorious Laffer curve. As my hon. Friend Barry Gardiner said, they are testing that economic philosophy to its limits. It is their latest excuse for an economic policy that rewards those who are already very wealthy and is the last refuge of a Government who have lost any sense of purpose beyond the protection of privilege.

The argument that cutting tax for the very richest is the only way of improving the economic prospects for the rest of us was made by the hon. Members for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). They were suggesting that cutting taxes for the rich is what makes them work harder, but that cutting benefits for the poor is what gets them out of bed in the morning. They were saying that although these policies will hurt their constituents, they will vote for them anyway. I am sure that their constituents will sit up and take notice.

It is the same old Tories dusting down the same old trickle-down theories. They did not work in the 1980s and they will not work today. As my hon. Friend Sheila Gilmore said, the Government seem to think that if they cut taxes for the richest, somehow the rest of us will be the beneficiaries. Nothing could more clearly demonstrate the Government’s perverse priorities than the fact that, when ordinary families are going through the toughest times in living memory, clause 1 of chapter 1 of part 1 of this Finance Bill gives a £3 billion tax cut to the richest 1% of the population, and the rest of the Bill is peppered with dubious means of making other, far less fortunate people in society pay for it.

Among those means, the largest and most flagrant is the abolition of the age-related allowance. The Government call it a tax simplification; we call it a tax grab from pensioners with occupational pensions of little more than £5,000 a year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck said, it will cost pensioners £83 and people coming up to retirement £323.

May I just say how disappointing it was—

Debate interrupted (Programme Orders, 16 April and this day ).

The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the amendment be made.

The House divided:

Ayes 233, Noes 315.

Division number 35 Finance Bill — Clause 1 — Additional Rate of Income Tax

A majority of MPs voted to set the additional rate of income tax, applying to income over £150,000 per year, at 45% for 2013-14, a reduction from the previous 50% rate.

Aye: 233 MPs

No: 315 MPs

Ayes: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Nos: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Absent: 98 MPs

Absents: A-Z by last name

Question accordingly negatived.

The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E).