First, let me remind the hon. Gentleman of what I said earlier about the effectiveness of universal benefits in reaching the poorest. Secondly, even if we accept the hon. Gentleman's contention on its own terms, it does not provide a case for abolishing those benefits. It may provide a case for retaining the existing structures and targeting them for a time. Obviously I do not want that to happen-I want us to maintain as much universal support as we can-but at the very least I ask Government Members why they want to rip the whole thing up and throw it out, rather than trying to target it more effectively.