Schedule 22 — Statutory provisions

Equality Bill – in the House of Commons at 6:00 pm on 2 December 2009.

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Votes in this debate

Amendment made: 186, page 208, line 27, in the first column leave out ', 4, 6 and' and insert 'to'.- (Vera Baird.)

Photo of John Martin McDonnell John Martin McDonnell Labour, Hayes and Harlington

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I use this point of order to place on the record for those who have been involved in the campaign to obtain decent wages for seafarers and to tackle poverty pay on British ships how disappointed a large number of Members are that we were denied the opportunity today even to vote on the matter, despite a lengthy debate? I think it is a disgrace to the House, and it undermines the whole concept of, and belief in, democracy in this country that we cannot address such a crucial issue as the poverty pay of seafarers in this country.

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means

The hon. Gentleman has put that on the record. He knows that it is not a point of order. It is dangerously near a criticism of the Chair for the selection responsibilities that we have. I ask him to consider that.

Photo of Ann Widdecombe Ann Widdecombe Conservative, Maidstone and The Weald

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I certainly would never criticise the Chair, but I think it is rather different to ask a question about the timetabling, which today has meant that three groups of amendments were not even reached, that other important amendments could not be discussed at length and that there simply was no time to vote on others. I would be grateful if Mr. Speaker could talk to Ministers about this-if such a thing ever happens.

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means

The right hon. Lady must know that she cannot plot Mr. Speaker's course on these matters. She must know that a programme motion was agreed by the House. [Interruption.] Order. It would not be the first occasion on which the House has felt a little frustrated that there has been insufficient time.

Photo of Evan Harris Evan Harris Shadow Science Minister

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can anything be done in situations such as this, where not three but five groups of amendments have not been reached? They contain Government new clauses and amendments that have never been scrutinised by this House as well as tens-scores, in fact-of amendments tabled by hon. Members. Is there nothing that we can do, even at this late stage, to ensure that we get a chance at least to divide on some of these important issues?

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means

The hon. Gentleman made that point earlier, if not in exactly the same words then in very similar words, and Mr. Speaker was obliged to rule that the answer is no. I think that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the constraints that apply.

Photo of Douglas Hogg Douglas Hogg Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will doubtless know that the noble Lord Rooker has suggested that when such an occasion arises in this House, a certificate should be sent to the other place identifying those parts of a Bill that have not been properly debated or even debated at all. It would be within the discretion of Mr. Speaker to issue such a certificate in respect of the clauses that have been the subject of discussion in the points of order.

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means

The noble Lord Rooker is no longer here to argue his point. I am sure that Mr. Speaker will have noted the right hon. and learned Gentleman's observation.

Third Reading

Photo of Vera Baird Vera Baird Solicitor General, Attorney General's Office 6:45, 2 December 2009

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I am pleased with the scrutiny and attention that hon. Members have given this important Bill. It has been considered for a considerable period in Committee and it has been improved in significant ways as a result of its passage through the House, including in the addition of protection against dual discrimination, the extension of the socio-economic duty to Scotland, the limits on questions about disability that can be asked by employers when recruiting, and clarification of the pregnancy and maternity provisions. It can be further improved if the research that we have commissioned from the Equality Commission on caste can, as we have asked, be completed quickly so that if there is need, we can ban caste discrimination through measures in the other place.

The Government have a proud history of equalities legislation. When this Bill's predecessor, the Equality Act 2006, was going through Parliament, there were a number of calls for a new equality Bill. This Bill answers those calls. It sets out groundbreaking new Laws that will help narrow the gap between rich and poor, place equality at the heart of what public bodies do, require transparency and therefore action to tackle the gender pay gap and outlaw age discrimination outside the workplace. In all those ways it will significantly strengthen Britain's equality legislation, which for the first time is brought together coherently in one place. It is what we have described as a "plain English Bill"-that is to say that the final version will have the legal clauses on one side of the page and explanatory notes on the other to optimise accessibility.

Photo of Katy Clark Katy Clark Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran

I welcome everything that my hon. and learned Friend has said. She will recall that I raised an issue to do with the Scottish Gypsy Traveller community earlier. Is she in a position to come back to me on the question of whether she believes that they are covered under the legislation by the category of race?

Photo of Vera Baird Vera Baird Solicitor General, Attorney General's Office

My understanding is that there is already a case about that, although at first instance I have not had an opportunity to consider it in sufficient depth to answer my hon. Friend's question. I shall certainly write to her and I commend her for raising the issue.

Equality and fairness are the hallmarks of a modern and confident society. When we talk about equality, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that we are talking about something that affects and impacts on real people. What we actually mean when we talk about equality is fairness-the principle that everyone has the right to be treated fairly and to have the opportunity to fulfil their potential. The Bill moves that agenda on considerably and I commend it to the House.

Photo of Theresa May Theresa May Shadow Minister (Women), Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions 6:48, 2 December 2009

I want to thank all hon. Members who have taken part in scrutinising this Bill at each of its stages. A Bill of this length and complexity places a particular burden on those who sit on the Committee, and I particularly commend my hon. Friends the Members for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) and for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) for the sterling work that they did in Committee. I believe that they have been able to achieve some improvements to the Bill.

It has taken us a long time to reach this point. It is therefore all the more disappointing that the Leader of the House did not respond to the request from my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean that more time should be given on Report, given the large number of amendments and new clauses tabled by hon. Members from both sides of the House and by the Government.

Photo of Peter Bone Peter Bone Conservative, Wellingborough

Will my right hon. Friend advise the Opposition? Given that we have not had time properly to scrutinise the Bill, is not the only option for some Members to vote against it on Third Reading?

Photo of Theresa May Theresa May Shadow Minister (Women), Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

I note my hon. Friend's concern about the lack of time allowed to debate certain aspects of the Bill, but I am sure that Members of Another place will be taking particular note of those aspects of the Bill that have not been properly debated and scrutinised in this House. It would not be appropriate to vote against the Bill purely on that procedural point. There are aspects of it with which I do not agree, although I do agree with a lot of it.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton Conservative, Macclesfield

I agree with much of what my right hon. Friend has just said. Does she agree that much of what has happened in this House has highlighted the importance of the other place and the fact that it is not subject to programme motions?

Photo of Theresa May Theresa May Shadow Minister (Women), Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

Indeed. I note that point, and I am sure that it will also be noted by those in the other place who will scrutinise the Bill. My hon. Friend has raised concerns about programme motions on many occasions and has put his point most forcefully. It is a pity that the Government have not listened to it on this occasion and a number of others. We have always been clear about the need for a single Equality Bill to bring together and streamline the various pieces of equality legislation. Given that there are currently nine pieces of primary legislation, more than 100 regulations and more than 2,500 pages of guidance and codes of practice, there is a clear need for simplification and streamlining. We certainly support that aspect of the Bill, which makes up the Majority of it. I know that many practitioners and businesses out there will strongly welcome the streamlining of equalities legislation into a single piece of legislation.

Photo of Rob Marris Rob Marris Labour, Wolverhampton South West

I, too, very much welcome the Bill, but will the right hon. Lady explain why she and her party voted against it on Second Reading?

Photo of Theresa May Theresa May Shadow Minister (Women), Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

The hon. Gentleman needs to check his facts. We put down a reasoned Amendment on Second Reading- [ Interruption. ] The Leader of the House is chuntering from the Treasury Bench; had she given more time to debate the Bill, she could have chuntered from the Dispatch Box as well. As I was saying to the hon. Gentleman, we put down a reasoned amendment, and I am about to identify the aspects of the Bill on which we still disagree with the Government.

We support the streamlining of legislation, but we are not able to support several areas of the Bill. The socio-economic duty is indicative of the Government's failure to tackle issues of inequality and poverty as well as their causes. As we approach the end of this Parliament, it is clear that the Government have run out of ideas. I wish that passing a law to tell people that they are entitled to a better life would actually deliver that, but it will not. We want the Government to tackle the issues that cause inequality, but their failure to take the decisions necessary to improve educational outcomes, tackle worklessness and reduce family breakdown, all of which are key causes and drivers of inequality and poverty, mean that they are now resorting to this posturing with pointless targets.

In Committee, we pressed the Government on a number of issues, one of which was positive action in recruitment, and some discrepancy seems to have emerged between the understanding of the Leader of the House and that of the Solicitor-General about what the Bill should do on that issue. On Second Reading, the Leader of the House said that positive action would be allowed in cases where there were "two equally qualified candidates", but the Solicitor-General confirmed in Committee that the legislation would be "far broader" than that. We have consistently supported positive action on the basis that it could be used as a tiebreaker when there are two equally qualified candidates. It is a shame that the Government appear to have gone beyond that, and we hope to return to this issue in the other place.

The Solicitor-General mentioned pre-employment questionnaires. I recognise that the Government have taken the concerns about them seriously, but I still feel that they have not gone far enough. For people with disabilities or longer-term health issues, and especially those who suffer from health conditions, the issue remains of concern. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has said that people with mental health problems face serious discrimination in the employment process, particularly from the attitude of employers. We need to make sure that there is a level playing field for people with health issues, and in general we do not believe that details of an illness or disability should be required to be revealed until after a job offer has been made. As I said, I recognise that the Government have taken on board some of the concerns in this area, but we will want to return to the matter again.

Photo of Vera Baird Vera Baird Solicitor General, Attorney General's Office

I shall not detain the Chamber, but the Clause that we have put forward now is stronger than the one proposed by the Opposition. It offers a solution, whereas theirs merely declares things to be unlawful and offers no remedy. Ours is the stronger measure but, apart from that, I honestly believe that the right hon. Lady is making a fuss about nothing and that there is not a cigarette paper between us.

Photo of Theresa May Theresa May Shadow Minister (Women), Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

I have to tell the hon. and learned Lady that it was only after we had pressed them on this point that the Government were willing to make any movement. There is still concern about the matter outside this House. I am sure that the other place will want to return to it, and there are also problems with the regulations on age-related discrimination.

Equality is not just for the good times. We all want to ensure that equality and fairness drive what we do, but we must recognise that equality has been given a bad name in recent years, with many people thinking that it is something given to others and not to them.

We are clear that equality should never be the enemy of common sense. It should not get in the way of businesses, communities or the public sector, but instead it should help them to work better. That is the approach that we have taken, and it is the one that we will continue to take.

Photo of Lynne Featherstone Lynne Featherstone Shadow Minister (Children, Schools and Families), Liberal Democrat Spokeperson (Children, Schools and Families) 6:57, 2 December 2009

I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for their contributions in Committee and on Report. There have been some very intelligent and long discussions about the Bill, with huge consensus evident across the House. I should also like to thank all the Officers and Clerks of the House who have helped us, and me especially, as we have worked our way through the Bill.

My party welcomes the Bill and the way that it brings all sorts of legislation together. We oppose the Government on almost nothing in it, but believe that it should have gone further. I have great concerns that the things that were not included in the Bill, or in respect of which the Bill does not go far enough, will not see the light of day if there is a change of Government.

I welcome the introduction of measures covering age discrimination in the provision of goods and services, but fear that delaying them for six months could mean that they will not come into force. In addition, I am disappointed that the blanket ban on gay men giving blood was not examined further, but I am very relieved that the Solicitor-General said that the question of caste should be looked at again in the other place.

I am very disappointed that children will continue to face harassment in school if homophobic bullying does not receive the same coverage that other discriminations receive. In respect of people whose gender identity is not clear, I have never felt that the Government have properly understood the difference between gender reassignment and gender identity.

I hugely welcome this Bill but, for the reasons that I have set out, I hope that it will be taken further and that matters that we have not succeeded in getting debated will receive proper consideration. Along with colleagues across the House, I deplore the lack of time made available for discussion, as it has meant that we have not been able to debate many important and serious issues. That abdication of responsibility to democracy makes a farce of any commitment to a different type of politics.

Photo of Keith Vaz Keith Vaz Chair, Home Affairs Committee, Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee, Chair, Home Affairs Committee 6:58, 2 December 2009

Although there are obvious differences between those on the different party Front Benches, the comments of both Mrs. May and Lynne Featherstone have made it clear that their parties have an absolute commitment to equality.

I just want to place on record my appreciation for the work done by the Leader of the House in propelling this Bill from a draft to the stage that it has reached now. She has been a true champion of equality, and this is a great legacy for her.

Photo of Mark Pritchard Mark Pritchard Conservative, The Wrekin 6:59, 2 December 2009

Some of us have concerns about supporting the Bill on Third Reading, not because of many of its elements, which I support-my record on equal rights is on the public record-but because of the lack of time to discuss such important issues. For that very reason, I feel that I will perhaps not be able to support the Bill on Third Reading. It is an absolute disgrace that an issue of such importance has been given so little time.

Photo of John Mason John Mason Spokesperson (Work and Pensions)

We certainly support the Bill. We believe that everyone is of equal value. It is disappointing that there was not a purpose Clause. We spent too much time on the letter of the law-

Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 11 May 2009 )

The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The House divided: Ayes 338, Noes 8.

Division number 13 Equality Bill — Third Reading

Aye: 338 MPs

No: 8 MPs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Tellers

No: A-Z by last name

Tellers

Absent: 296 MPs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Amendment

As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.

Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.

In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.

The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.

Deputy Speaker

The Deputy speaker is in charge of proceedings of the House of Commons in the absence of the Speaker.

The deputy speaker's formal title is Chairman of Ways and Means, one of whose functions is to preside over the House of Commons when it is in a Committee of the Whole House.

The deputy speaker also presides over the Budget.

Speaker

The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.

other place

The House of Lords. When used in the House of Lords, this phrase refers to the House of Commons.

laws

Laws are the rules by which a country is governed. Britain has a long history of law making and the laws of this country can be divided into three types:- 1) Statute Laws are the laws that have been made by Parliament. 2) Case Law is law that has been established from cases tried in the courts - the laws arise from test cases. The result of the test case creates a precedent on which future cases are judged. 3) Common Law is a part of English Law, which has not come from Parliament. It consists of rules of law which have developed from customs or judgements made in courts over hundreds of years. For example until 1861 Parliament had never passed a law saying that murder was an offence. From the earliest times courts had judged that murder was a crime so there was no need to make a law.

Opposition

The Opposition are the political parties in the House of Commons other than the largest or Government party. They are called the Opposition because they sit on the benches opposite the Government in the House of Commons Chamber. The largest of the Opposition parties is known as Her Majesty's Opposition. The role of the Official Opposition is to question and scrutinise the work of Government. The Opposition often votes against the Government. In a sense the Official Opposition is the "Government in waiting".

another place

During a debate members of the House of Commons traditionally refer to the House of Lords as 'another place' or 'the other place'.

Peers return the gesture when they speak of the Commons in the same way.

This arcane form of address is something the Labour Government has been reviewing as part of its programme to modernise the Houses of Parliament.

majority

The term "majority" is used in two ways in Parliament. Firstly a Government cannot operate effectively unless it can command a majority in the House of Commons - a majority means winning more than 50% of the votes in a division. Should a Government fail to hold the confidence of the House, it has to hold a General Election. Secondly the term can also be used in an election, where it refers to the margin which the candidate with the most votes has over the candidate coming second. To win a seat a candidate need only have a majority of 1.

Second Reading

The Second Reading is the most important stage for a Bill. It is when the main purpose of a Bill is discussed and voted on. If the Bill passes it moves on to the Committee Stage. Further information can be obtained from factsheet L1 on the UK Parliament website.

Dispatch Box

If you've ever seen inside the Commons, you'll notice a large table in the middle - upon this table is a box, known as the dispatch box. When members of the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet address the house, they speak from the dispatch box. There is a dispatch box for the government and for the opposition. Ministers and Shadow Ministers speak to the house from these boxes.

amendment

As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.

Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.

In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.

The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.

clause

A parliamentary bill is divided into sections called clauses.

Printed in the margin next to each clause is a brief explanatory `side-note' giving details of what the effect of the clause will be.

During the committee stage of a bill, MPs examine these clauses in detail and may introduce new clauses of their own or table amendments to the existing clauses.

When a bill becomes an Act of Parliament, clauses become known as sections.

Division

The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.