– in the House of Commons at 5:09 pm on 7 March 2007.
Votes in this debate
Motion made,
That this House is of the opinion that the remaining retained places for peers whose membership is based on the hereditary principle should be removed.— [Mr. Straw.]
Amendment proposed: (c), in line 2, at end add:
"once elected members have taken their places in a reformed House of Lords."— [Mrs. May.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 241, Noes 329.
Division number 71
House of Lords Reform — Remove Hereditary Places once Reform has taken place — rejected
Division number 72
House of Lords Reform — Remove Hereditary Places
Laurence Robertson
Shadow Minister (Northern Ireland)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The first vote tonight was on whether the House wanted to continue with a bicameral Parliament, and many of us voted aye on the basis that the House of Lords is as it is now. If we are to be offered a House of Lords that is either wholly or largely elected, some of us might vote the opposite way. Could we please be given that opportunity?
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
I do not want to be drawn into that matter.
David Clelland
Labour, Tyne Bridge
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House has made a clear decision on an issue that was not included in the manifestos of any of the political parties at the last election. Would you expect the Leader of the House now to come to the House with proposals for a referendum, so that the people of this country can make a decision as to whether they agree with that decision?
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
I will leave these matters to the Leader of the House.
Theresa May
Shadow Leader of the House of Commons
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given that in the votes that we have just had, the House has passed two motions for reform of the House of Lords, neither of which was Government policy, and given that the Government's policy for a 50:50 split in the House of Lords actually received the smallest number of votes of any of the votes that we have taken, will the Leader of the House be making a statement to this House about where the Government intend to take this issue now?
Jack Straw
Chair, Modernisation of the House of Commons Committee, Leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal
I am delighted to make a statement. Let me say to the Leader of the House—[Hon. Members: "Hooray!"] As well as speaking to myself, let me say to the Shadow Leader of the House that she has departed from the normal ecumenical spirit of generosity that she has adopted previously, because the truth is that if she and I and the Liberals had not worked very hard on this, we would never have delivered what is a very positive vote for change—fundamental change—in the way that we order the other place. I am delighted, both by the results and by the fact that at long last this House has come to a very clear decision.
The other place will be discussing this issue next week. I think it is fully accepted on both sides that we are right to take our time to consider the views of the other place. Meanwhile, I shall make arrangements to recall the cross-party working group, and at an appropriate moment after discussions in that group I shall of course make a statement to this House.
Simon Hughes
Shadow Attorney General, Shadow Lord Chancellor and Shadow Secretary of State for Justice, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I pay tribute to the Leader of the House, who has always made it clear that this was to be a decision for the House of Commons. The House of Commons has not just made a decision; it has made a very clear decision. I am grateful for the indication that there will be further discussion between all the parties in this House as to how we take it forward. I am grateful for the indication that we should communicate our view clearly to the other place. May I ask that we have, before the end of this Session, a commitment by the Government that in the next Session of Parliament they will proceed to implement the decision made by the House of Commons tonight?
Jack Straw
Chair, Modernisation of the House of Commons Committee, Leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal
I think it is slightly premature to invite me to announce an element of the Queen's Speech at this stage; one step at a time. But I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I repeat the compliment to him. I have always made it clear that the purpose of this process was to test and then to obtain the opinion of this House. We have done so, and I am delighted that I voted in favour of one of the two options that was approved by an overwhelming Majority.
Alex Salmond
Parliamentary Leader (Westminster), Leader, Scottish National Party
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the House will recall that in the original cross-party discussions he felt that the balance of opinion and temperature was for a 50:50 split. Can we now therefore assume that these new discussions will include some of the minority parties in this House, whose feelings on this matter seem to be more reflective of the votes we have just cast than the Leader of the House thought in the original, restrictive discussions?
Douglas Hogg
Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall a point of order that I raised on a previous occasion, namely that when a Government Minister rises on a point of order, it is within the discretion of the Chair to treat it as a statement in respect of which he can be asked questions. The Leader of the House has now risen to his feet twice; indeed, he said that he was making a statement. Given that, would you permit hon. and right hon. Members to ask questions?
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
At the moment, these are still points of order. I allowed the Leader of the House to speak further to the points of order so that he could provide clarity to the House. Business questions are tomorrow and I am sure that hon. Members will have the ingenuity to put questions on this issue to the Leader of the House then.
Patrick Cormack
Chair, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, Chair, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the House has voted to abolish the House of Lords —[ Interruption. ] The House has voted to abolish the present second Chamber and replace it with something else. As that would be the most important constitutional change since about 1650, may we have an assurance from the Leader of the House—if he wishes to speak further to this point of order—that any legislation will be taken on the Floor of the House and will not be timetabled?
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
We are now getting into a debate about how this matter will be handled. There will be opportunities to question the Leader of the House and that can start tomorrow. It would be inappropriate to have a debate this evening about how to proceed.
Mike Gapes
Chair, Foreign Affairs Committee, Chair, Foreign Affairs Committee
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek clarification. Two of the motions on the composition of the other place were carried. One of them was carried by an absolute Majority of Members and the other by a smaller majority. Which of those motions will be taken forward as the most important?
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
I cannot read the thoughts of the Leader of the House at this stage.
Edward Leigh
Chair, Public Accounts Committee, Chair, Public Accounts Committee
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Although the Leader of the House may come to the House tomorrow, the results will be widely reported and it would be useful for him to explain his view of the settled will of the House. Is it an entirely elected Chamber or an 80:20 split? We should know now.
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
Well, I must now put an end to this matter—
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
Order. I can tell the Leader of the House to sit down in the same way as I tell other hon. Members to do so. We have this evening to reflect on the decision and the House will be able to question the Leader of the House tomorrow—
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
The Leader of the House does not intend to remain seated, so I will let him speak as that may help the House on this matter.
Jack Straw
Chair, Modernisation of the House of Commons Committee, Leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal
I rise to put on record information that I have communicated already to the Shadow Leader of the House, the leader of the Liberal Democrats and the Clerk, which is that I cannot be here tomorrow. I sent a letter to that effect two weeks ago. My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House will handle business and I will be here the following week.
I say to Mr. Salmond that I will arrange some discussions with the smaller parties in the House. On the bigger questions, we will listen to what the other place says. We have always said that, especially to those who have argued for no change. We will listen, as is our duty, and then we will discuss the next steps in the cross-party group.
Michael Martin
Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, Speaker of the House of Commons, Chair, Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission
I shall now move on to the next business.
The house of Lords is the upper chamber of the Houses of Parliament. It is filled with Lords (I.E. Lords, Dukes, Baron/esses, Earls, Marquis/esses, Viscounts, Count/esses, etc.) The Lords consider proposals from the EU or from the commons. They can then reject a bill, accept it, or make amendments. If a bill is rejected, the commons can send it back to the lords for re-discussion. The Lords cannot stop a bill for longer than one parliamentary session. If a bill is accepted, it is forwarded to the Queen, who will then sign it and make it law. If a bill is amended, the amended bill is sent back to the House of Commons for discussion.
The Lords are not elected; they are appointed. Lords can take a "whip", that is to say, they can choose a party to represent. Currently, most Peers are Conservative.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.
The House of Lords. When used in the House of Lords, this phrase refers to the House of Commons.
The shadow cabinet is the name given to the group of senior members from the chief opposition party who would form the cabinet if they were to come to power after a General Election. Each member of the shadow cabinet is allocated responsibility for `shadowing' the work of one of the members of the real cabinet.
The Party Leader assigns specific portfolios according to the ability, seniority and popularity of the shadow cabinet's members.
The House of Commons is one of the houses of parliament. Here, elected MPs (elected by the "commons", i.e. the people) debate. In modern times, nearly all power resides in this house. In the commons are 650 MPs, as well as a speaker and three deputy speakers.
The term "majority" is used in two ways in Parliament. Firstly a Government cannot operate effectively unless it can command a majority in the House of Commons - a majority means winning more than 50% of the votes in a division. Should a Government fail to hold the confidence of the House, it has to hold a General Election. Secondly the term can also be used in an election, where it refers to the margin which the candidate with the most votes has over the candidate coming second. To win a seat a candidate need only have a majority of 1.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
