What contribution her Department has made to reducing social exclusion.

The Department for Constitutional Affairs contributes to reducing and, indeed, to seeking to avoid descent into social exclusion, particularly among those with multiple problems, through promoting accessible, good and co-ordinated advice and information; through early Intervention, to avoid the escalation of problems; and through fair, proportionate and expeditious justice in the courts.

I thank my hon. and learned Friend for that reply. What contribution does the community justice programme make to that process?

My hon. Friend makes a very good point about integration between the criminal justice sector and the social welfare sector. There is an obvious link involving people who need social welfare support and advice and who, if they do not get it, descend into criminal activity. The community justice centres—the pilot is in Liverpool, and 10 more have just been announced—aim to problem-solve. They are closely linked with all the problems in the community. The judge makes it his business to go out in the community and ensure that he knows what is going on. Advice resources are available at court, not only for defendants, whose problems are shown up by their offending, but for witnesses and victims. Victims are often thrown into social exclusion by their victimisation, and they, too, can receive advice and assistance at court. There is growing integration between advice in the criminal sector and that in the social welfare sector, which is wholly desirable.

In the spirit of co-operation running up to Christmas, I wonder whether I could help the hon. and learned Lady. Surely, the best way to avoid social exclusion is to open up legal services to all, and the best way of doing that is to stop means-testing for cases before magistrates courts. Will she commit to stop that today?

There is absolutely no connection between the two. Means-testing is an appropriate system to stop the scandalous events that occurred when the cases of people who could well afford to pay for their own criminal defence were funded none the less by the taxpayers in Redcar and those in the hon. Lady's Constituency, whose interests she does not appear at the moment to be protecting. [ Interruption. ] I will take no lessons from the hon. Lady about social exclusion. It is extremely—

Order. We must have briefer replies.

Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that in Wales the citizens advice bureaux, properly supported by the Welsh specialist support service, have an important contribution to make to reducing social exclusion? Will she comment on the future of those two bodies?

The future for those two bodies is very positive. The point is to turn them over to a fixed-fee regime. They are increasing their productivity massively, which is commendable. They now have a full year in which to do much more of that before they are gently and supportively moved across on to a fixed-fee regime, enabling them to do more work for more people at better prices for the taxpayer. It is difficult to get a value-for-money, good-quality legal advice service into this country, particularly in rural areas. The Tories never managed it. This Government will.

Never has the provision of legal services to the socially excluded been under such threat as it is now. Government proposals have resulted in mental health lawyers complaining that their practices are unsustainable, in family lawyers threatening to stop practising, in criminal lawyers refusing to work and in the future closure of hundreds of high street practices, with resulting advice deserts. Now, even the court workers are going on strike. With all that debacle, is it not the case that the Minister's Department is increasing, rather than reducing, social exclusion?

The hon. Gentleman is on another planet, where one would expect the Tories to be when talking about social exclusion. Family fees are going to be looked at again and they are going to be dealt with in connection with family practitioners—the principle that I have been explaining all morning. Matters connected with mental health lawyers are going to be looked at again, in connection with practitioners. They have no concerns at all. Criminal lawyers are making the means test work in most major urban centres in this country.