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Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 10:21 pm on 19 December 2005.

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Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael Minister of State (State (Industry and the Regions)), Department of Trade and Industry 10:21, 19 December 2005

My hon. Friend misses the point again. We certainly do not blame people who do not possess burglar alarms for the fact that their house has been burgled. We blame the burglar and the criminal. We do not ask the police to recompense residents who have been burgled. One hopes that they will have insurance. If not, we do not then say, "Let the police or someone else recompense them".

I believe that it was right that a variety of providers, including BT, which my hon. Friend specifically mentioned by name, wrote off considerable sums of money that would have gone straight on to the scammer under the previous system. In that context, BT or any other provider such as NTL would have lost money as a result of the scam. The blame falls on the scam. We should do what we have been doing—create conditions that take the value out of a scam so that the scammers cannot take the money and scarper after a short while. They cannot then reappear and repeat the activity. It is important to understand the steps that we have put in place to ensure that that happens.

As regards specific bills, I suggest that my hon. Friend speak to the service provider that dealt with the cases in his constituency. It is not for the Government to say, "You"—whether referring to BT, NTL or whatever—"have been a victim of a scam and you should recompense the customer for everything that they repaid." Such a generous response to the fact that individuals have been placed in a position of loss by large industrial organisations may well be a virtue, but it is not appropriate for the Government to require it. That is what I said to my hon. Friend at the beginning. If he had explained the precise target that he was after, I could have been more helpful, perhaps in advance of tonight's debate, about ways of dealing with the problems of his constituents.

What I want to ensure for the future is that the regulator—in the case of ICSTIS, the delegated regulator, which effectively has authority devolved to it from Ofcom—the Government and the industry can address the issues in such a way as to deal much faster with any scam that appears. We want to be able to seize it, get a grip on it and prevent it from happening. I think that everyone involved would acknowledge that it took some time for people to realise just how costly the scam could be for customers and some time to get up to speed in responding to it. That, however, has now been achieved and I would remind my hon. Friend and the House that—

The motion having been made after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Eleven o'clock.

Annotations

Mike Ward
Posted on 4 Dec 2006 9:47 pm (Report this annotation)

Interesting analogy: having your house burgled. Except it fails on at least two counts:

1) If my house is burgled, I can report the crime to the police. The police may even pursue and prosecute the burglars. The police will certainly not simply refer me to a government "Office for the Regulation of Burglary".

2) If I discover that the burglars had arrived at my house for the burglary and left afterwards in a taxi belonging to ACME taxis and it subsequently transpired that the same team of burglars had been using ACME taxis to rob lots of other houses in the neighbourhood over the last couple of years and that this fact was known to ACME taxis and to the regulatory body that regulates ACME taxis, I think I should be entitled to ask how and why this state of affairs had been allowed to continue for so long.

Mike Ward
Posted on 4 Dec 2006 9:48 pm (Report this annotation)

Interesting analogy: having your house burgled. Except it fails on at least two counts:

1) If my house is burgled, I can report the crime to the police. The police may even pursue and prosecute the burglars. The police will certainly not simply refer me to a government "Office for the Regulation of Burglary".

2) If I discover that the burglars had arrived at my house for the burglary and left afterwards in a taxi belonging to ACME taxis and it subsequently transpired that the same team of burglars had been using ACME taxis to rob lots of other houses in the neighbourhood over the last couple of years and that this fact was known to ACME taxis and to the regulatory body that regulates ACME taxis, I think I should be entitled to ask how and why this state of affairs had been allowed to continue for so long.

kenneth conner
Posted on 22 Feb 2007 11:16 pm (Report this annotation)

The "burglar" has Alun Michael quaintly refers to it has "broken in".
At this point the burlar has not stolen anything.

That is until BT stands out side the window and agrees to cart the stolen goods away by the cart load.

Their defence was we had no way of knowing it was a burglary.

Despite the thousands of complaints BT helped the same burglar commit the same offence time and time again from 1st Jan 2004 to the end of 2004.