Oral Answers to Questions — Northern Ireland – in the House of Commons at 11:30 am on 26 October 2005.
Nicholas Winterton
Conservative, Macclesfield
11:30,
26 October 2005
If he will make a statement on the decommissioning of IRA weapons and explosives.
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
I congratulate Rev. Ian Paisley on his appointment to the Privy Council. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."]
General de Chastelain's report that the IRA's arsenal of weapons had been decommissioned marked a landmark in opening the way forward to a peaceful and democratic future for Northern Ireland, coming as it did after the IRA's statement in July.
Nicholas Winterton
Conservative, Macclesfield
I join the Secretary of State in congratulating Rev. Ian Paisley on his Privy Councillorship—much deserved and, if I may say so, long overdue. [Interruption.] Indeed, the right hon. Member for North Antrim. May I ask the Secretary of State how General de Chastelain and the two witnesses could be so certain that all the IRA weaponry and explosives had been put beyond use? How and why did the intelligence services downgrade their estimate of weapons and explosives? Is it not time that the Government stopped pandering to the terrorist thugs of Sinn Fein-IRA and provided equality of treatment and fairness for the Unionist population?
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks about the hon. Member for North Antrim—
Nicholas Winterton
Conservative, Macclesfield
The right hon. Member for North Antrim.
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
I am not sure that the hon. Member for North Antrim has taken the oath yet, but I stand to be corrected on that. Hopefully, he will have done so by the next Northern Ireland questions.
I quote—it is important for the House—from the statement made by the independent international agency for decommissioning. It determined that
"the IRA had met its commitment to put all its arms beyond use in a manner called for by the legislation".
Everybody understands that General de Chastelain and his fellow commissioners are people of total integrity and independence. They have made the position absolutely clear and I have just quoted them.
Ian Paisley
Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party
I thank the right hon. Gentleman and Sir Nicholas Winterton for their remarks. I am grateful to them and to the House for their reception of me this day.
I remind the Minister that the general and the two witnessing clerics put it firmly on the record that the arms that they saw decommissioned were largely old arms. The priest who was there said, "If you put them to your chest and pulled the trigger, they might kill you." That is a serious statement, which was added to: the real modern weapons formed a tiny percentage of the arms. Does that not worry the Secretary of State? We know that the IRA has modern weaponry, which needs to be put away. It is essential that that is done.
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
It is indeed essential that all weapons are put away, to use the hon. Gentleman's phrase. I think he will agree, however, that the statement made by General de Chastelain and verified by the two independent clergymen was emphatic that the IRA's arsenal had been put beyond use. We must recognise that that was the view of the independent commission.
Mark Durkan
Leader of the Social Democratic & Labour Party
The IRA's failure to decommission is what caused suspension in the first place. Now that the IRA has decommissioned, does the Secretary of State recognise that we should be clearly on a countdown to restoration of the institutions? In order to give the public confidence in that regard, does he believe that the politics of the concession of the weak, with parties doing handstands one week and head staggers the next, combined with a budget that hits the weak with a tax hit for years, is the best way to give the Northern Ireland public confidence that we are moving to taking responsibility ourselves?
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
It is crucial that the Independent Monitoring Commission's reports—the first one, which I published last week, and the one expected in January—become a bible for testing whether the promises to end paramilitary and criminal activity have been delivered on the ground. So far, so good. If and when that is clear, there will be no reason for parties not to engage in discussions towards the resumption of power sharing. The draft budget that I published yesterday, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, proposes a massive increase in health spending: an extra £450 million, and a massive increase in education spending—an extra £100 million. Yes, rates will go up by 19 per cent. to fund new child care support, new skills and science investment and new investment in renewable and clean energy, but I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman welcomed that as it will assist the most vulnerable in Northern Ireland.
Patrick Cormack
Chair, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, Chair, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Does the Secretary of State accept that it would do much to restore public confidence if those who inflicted such terrible misery with the weapons that have been decommissioned expressed some regret or remorse?
David Anderson
Labour, Blaydon
Will my right hon. Friend expand on a statement that he made the other week about on-the-runs legislation, which is obviously about people who have committed crimes, but, at least as important, what will be done about people being forced by terrorists to leave their homes—people who are exiled and have been for many years?
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
When we are ready to bring proposals for dealing with on-the-run suspects to the House, we will do so in the usual way, and we will have a chance to discuss them then. Exiling and punishments must stop. The IMC report showed that such activity had largely died out, but we are keeping a beady eye on it, because exiling is a pernicious practice, and if the IRA meets the terms of its commitments made on
Lorely Burt
Opposition Whip (Commons), Shadow Minister (Northern Ireland), Shadow Spokesperson (Northern Ireland)
The Liberal Democrats of course welcome the decommissioning of IRA weapons, as was confirmed by the de Chastelain commission on
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
I agree. The hon. Lady makes an important point on exiling. Yes, it would have been much better if decommissioning had occurred much earlier; if it had, there would be less suspicion within Northern Ireland, especially within Unionist communities, about the IRA's real intentions. However, the decommissioning and the statement made before it are an historic event. A year, or even two years ago, no one would have said that it would have been possible. It has now happened.
David Lidington
Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
I associate myself and my hon. Friends with the Secretary of State's congratulations to Rev. Ian Paisley.
I welcome the act of decommissioning, but does the Secretary of State agree that over the years the Provisional IRA has accumulated enough money from bank robberies and other crimes to afford to re-arm itself, should it ever choose to do so, and that what we therefore need now is not the decommissioning of weapons and explosives only, but the decommissioning of the IRA's paramilitary organisation and its command structure, so that we can start to believe that this step by republicans is permanent and irreversible?
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
I understand the hon. Gentleman's points and I welcome the fact that he too regards the decommissioning that occurred and the statement on
"We have no evidence of training or recruitment after the
So there is still something going on. That is why the statement in the report in January is very important.
David Lidington
Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
But as the Secretary of State indicated, the IMC declared in its report that it was too early to tell whether the steps that republicans have taken are indeed permanent and irreversible.
Will he explain why he has rushed to restore the Stormont and Westminster allowances to Sinn Fein, given that the IMC, which he prayed in aid, explicitly refused to make that recommendation? Should not Sinn Fein have to wait until it agrees to play by the same democratic rules that we expect of every party in Britain and every party on the island of Ireland?
Peter Hain
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, The Secretary of State for Wales
Sinn Fein has committed itself to maintaining and playing by those rules. We will have to judge whether that is fulfilled. I thought that it was the right decision. I am sure that if, in those circumstances, the hon. Gentleman had been standing in my shoes at this Dispatch Box, he would have taken the right decision. It is for the House to decide what it does about the Sinn Fein allowances, which were suspended earlier this year. However, I thought that it was right to recommend to the House that Sinn Fein's allowances in the Assembly be restored in view of the enormous historic progress that has been made, which, to be fair, the hon. Gentleman has welcomed.
The Privy Council goes back to the earliest days of the Monarchy, when it comprised those appointed by the King or Queen to advise on matters of state.
As the constitution developed into today's constitutional monarchy, under which The Sovereign acts on the advice of Ministers, so the Privy Council adapted. Its day to day business is transacted by those of Her Majesty's Ministers who are Privy Counsellors, that is all Cabinet Ministers and a number of junior Ministers. Membership of the Privy Council brings with it the right to be called "Right Honourable".
The Privy Council still meets regularly, on average once a month, but, as with the Cabinet, most of its business is transacted in discussion and correspondence between its Ministerial members and the Government Departments that advise them. The Privy Council Office (which is itself a Government Department) provides a secretariat for these discussions, as the Cabinet Office does in relation to the business of Cabinet and Cabinet Committees. Councils are held by The Queen and are attended by Ministers and the Clerk of the Council. At each meeting the Council will obtain Her Majesty's formal approval to a number of Orders which have already been discussed and approved by Ministers, much as Acts of Parliament become law through the giving of the Royal Assent after having been debated in Parliament.
Meetings are reported in the Court Circular, along with the names of Ministers attending (usually four in number). The Orders made at each Council are in the public domain, and each bears the date and place of the Council at which it was made. There is therefore nothing at all "secret" about Privy Council meetings. The myth that the Privy Council is a secretive body springs from the wording of the Privy Counsellor's Oath , which, in its current form, dates back to Tudor times. It requires those taking it to "keep secret all matters...treated of in Council". The Oath (or solemn affirmation for those who cannot take an Oath) is still administered, and is still binding; but it is only in very special circumstances nowadays that matters will come to a Privy Counsellor on "Privy Council terms". These will mostly concern matters of the national interest where it is important for senior members of Opposition parties to have access to Government information.
Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
If you've ever seen inside the Commons, you'll notice a large table in the middle - upon this table is a box, known as the dispatch box. When members of the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet address the house, they speak from the dispatch box. There is a dispatch box for the government and for the opposition. Ministers and Shadow Ministers speak to the house from these boxes.